Dear Caitlin, I'm amazed that you continue finding new words to describe this ongoing horror with such eloquence and compassion. I myself am aghast and beyond speechless in the face of what Israel is doing and what the U.S. is supporting. Bless you for keeping on keeping on . . .
Back up just a second. How exactly is she compassionate to the plight of the Palestinians? Has she asked someone living in Gaza what they feel when they aren't under threat from Hamas?
Do you think innocent Palestinians enjoy Hamas rule when they are imprisoned, beaten, or killed for daring to protest Hamas? Do you think Palestinian gay people enjoy living in fear because the "honorable" thing to do is kill them? Do you think Palestinian women enjoy being second-class citizens where their testimony is worth half that of a man? Do you think they want to live in a place where domestic abuse is not against the law and raping your wife is legal? Do you think young girls prefer to go to segregated schools where they have unequal access to education? Do you think mothers are proud of their young boys being trained to fight under the promise that they will inherit 70 virgins in paradise? I guess women should be proud that their place is to serve a man sexually in the afterlife.
The fact is, Israel is the one with the Western ideals you take for granted. You can criticize the actions of your government. Palestinians cannot. You can protest violence against innocent people, but Palestinians will become the victims of violence if they do. You can cry out for help from your government in a time of need, but Palestinians can count on Hamas to steal any human aid to use it for Hamas and their family.
Standing against Israel is standing against the one hope that innocent Palestinians have of eliminating the disease that is Hamas because no one else, not you, Caitlin, or the UN, actually cares about liberating innocent Palestinians so they can enjoy human rights. If you spoke to a Palestinian who was not under threat of death, which some people have done to put their responses online, they would tell you that they welcome the removal of Hamas, whether Jewish people do it or someone else. Their primary fear is not the damage done to Gaza by Israel if Hamas is eliminated; it is that Israel will begin the process and then be manipulated by international pressure to withdraw before completing its mission, resulting in massive damage to Gaza without actually removing Hamas.
Their primary fear is people like you, Deb, who care so little or who are so uninformed that you cheer on people like Caitlin. When all these voices combine to call for a cease-fire with Evil, it culminates in international pressure to stop Israel. A call that prevents them from doing the ONE THING that would benefit innocent Palestinians: the complete removal of Hamas.
You have bought into the terrible idea that the West is the evil one, not realizing that the concept of human rights comes from the West. Do you think Palestinians enjoy human rights in Gaza? They don't. And they cannot until Hamas is eliminated.
The only Palestinians enjoying human rights in that region are the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. Go figure.
So, as you sleep in peace and safety tonight, remember that you are supporting the continuing oppression of Palestinians. Many people have given their lives trying to obtain the freedoms you enjoy. War is tragic. War is brutal. War is sometimes necessary to prevent Evil from committing more evil. The collateral damage caused by fighting Evil is not the fault of the country that Evil attacked. It is the result of Evil itself. If you hope for peace and safety in Gaza, the only way to liberate Gaza is to eliminate the Evil that is Hamas. That will cost innocent lives now because Hamas will ensure it. They sacrifice innocent lives to manipulate people like Caitlin to disguise the atrocities they commit. But eliminating Hamas now will save countless lives in the future. The cost of removing Hamas is a terrible price to pay, but it is far better than the price of allowing Hamas to continue its war of aggression and oppression.
The problem is that people in the West have it so good they cannot comprehend the depth of Hamas' evil. They cannot fathom someone putting a baby inside an oven and turning it on. They cannot fathom a government that shoots protestors in front of their families. They cannot fathom a place without a police station or hotline to lodge a complaint against a government falsely imprisoning, beating, raping, or murdering a family member.
There is a side of Evil and a side of Good in this conflict. Do not allow people to manipulate you into supporting the side of Evil. As a result of the chorus of voices like Caitlin's, evil will likely prevail in Gaza. And innocent people will continue to suffer and die as a result.
Actually K. Paul not many of us can comprehend the USA giving more money to Israel while it slowly kills every Palestinian living in Gaza. You have swallowed the propaganda that this is about Hamas. It is not.
It is about Israel wanting more land and using the idea of Hamas as a shield for more atrocity's.
So please explain the math here. Israel is slowly killing every Palestinian in Gaza. Why is their population increasing?
Israel has offered the Palestinians a two-state solution multiple times, and it has consistently declined. Israel does not want Gaza; it wants peace. Hamas does not want peace; it wants to murder Jewish people.
So, if the answer is to stop trying to eliminate terrorists, what is your plan? Open the borders with Gaza, and then all the Hamas militants that shoot children with weapons automagically become good, wholesome citizens? Please explain to me how this works... I assume you've never negotiated with a man who will put your baby in an oven and turn it on. What do you plan to say to them? You must have a perfect plan. Right?
So exterminating them wholesale is the solution? Nobody is saying they have the perfect solution. This has been going on for centuries. Nobody is saying they think the way women/homosexuals/dissenters in Palestine is in any way shape or form a shining beacon of freedom and hope. What we are all saying is the bombing of these people is wrong. Full stop.
Wow, You ust really work to come up with a narrative where the people of Gaa are welcoming being bombed and shot, thousands more dying each few days, with a government that is intent on pushing them out of their homeland for good but it's all fine because the Jews are better for women and gays--for JEWISH women and gays, that is. Palestinian women may be glad to see a relaxing of the sexism of Islam (which varies--whether it's really as you depict it in Gaza, I don't know) but I guarantee that will take a back seat when their entire people are being exterminated, oh excuse me LIBERATED by the Zionists.
See, and isn't that precisely the point? You don't even know how women in Gaza are treated, yet you are sure you understand what is best... When Gazans blame Hamas for starting this current war on Oct 7, they are silenced by Hamas. Hamas only allows the voices of those who blame Israel.
So here is a thought. If Israel wanted to exterminate the residents in Gaza, don't you think they would make sure they were in their homes rather than warning them before they dropped bombs? I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas. If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered the murderers responsible for Oct 7, this would be over TODAY. Hamas could end this conflict. Yet you don't call for Hamas to do anything.
Israel is so committed to peace that they created the Iron Dome to shoot rockets out of the sky. Tell me one other country that puts up with rockets being fired at their cities and, instead of wiping out the terrorists completely, creates a system to shoot down rockets. Any come to mind?
The Iron Dome was invented so they could avoid what they are ultimately having to do anyway: invade Gaza to remove Hamas. Unfortunately, Israel listened to the world when they said they should leave Gaza. They left. That made things worse. Hamas overran Gaza via a brutal and bloody civil war. Then, Israel implemented a blockade to protect themselves from terrorist attacks and an Iron Dome to shoot down rockets. As much as possible, Israel operated in cease-fire mode. Do you remember what happened next? Hamas planned a massive attack to murder innocent people, including mothers, young children, and grandparents.
So what is your solution? Is your plan is to continue the same thing that led to the current situation - leaving Hamas in control of Gaza, where they will plan the next attack? You act as if Israel could open their border with Gaza, and suddenly, Hamas militants would just calmly become good, wholesome fathers who don't put babies in ovens anymore. Think about it. Hamas was formed looooong before Gaza was cordoned off and had a blockade. The goal of Hamas is not a two-state solution; it is the elimination of Israel. Good luck with peace.
So instead, let's just continue the status quo, with terrorists ruling Gaza, so that you can say you were the morally superior person by accusing Israel of war crimes when they respond to terrorist attacks.
How about you offer a solution that brings peace? What is your grand answer to terrorists governing Gaza? How do you stop the violence and give freedom to Palestinians? Since a cease-fire with Hamas is best, what is the plan?
where does hamas only allow the voices of those who blame israel? where does it have that power?
israel is sophisticated enough to know how to put lipstick on a pig (hence the 'warnings')
'the us is so committed to peace that it puts anti-ballistic missiles in poland and rumania'. the entire world has to put up with the threat of nuclear powers annihilating cities without an iron dome. the us is working to get rid of the mad-doctrine. they thought it kinda worked in israel: put up an anti-rocket dome and you don't have to negotiate about anything anymore.
imo, it is pretty obvious that israeli governments and leaders have always wanted to not only 'remove hamas' but genocide the palestinians (including the oppressed women you mentioned). doing their utmost to signal they 'have to'.
'the same thing that led to the current situation' from the perspective of hamas where israel is not 'destroyed' but 'contained', has indeed led to 'mowing the lawn' (you undoubtedly are familiar with that expression).
in its 2017 charter hamas compromised (again) accepting the 1967 borders. 'somehow' this did not gain traction.
plan: ceasefire now, exchange of prisoners (proposed about 4 times by hamas), end of us (military and political) support for israel, negotiations for a viable palistinian state (backed up by bds), 'right to return' for palestinian refugees, end of the apartheid ethno state and settler policy, ...
Hamas are freedom fighters. They won't be eliminated. their numbers will increase now. They kicked Israel's ass, showed them what sissies the Israeli military is....10 hours before the so called military showed up for the party?
Another point: Israel does not care about the hostages/captives....I think half of them aren't even Israeli (11 from Thailand doing field work at below minimum wage) . The way they have been bombing...did they know where the captives are being held? Of course they didn't; now they know they're in a tunnel. So now they are bombing and shooting into tunnels. Those captives won't be going home and it will be blamed on Hamas, which is apparently protecting them from harm.
Israel stepped in poo poo with this violent insane beastly reaction...and for 70 years, behaving to a population like Nazis. The world will NOT forgive.
{I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas.}
I don't want to get involved in your argument but you are aware that it has been confirmed that the vast majority of Israel's who perished on October 7th were actually shot and killed by the IDF. My point is you cannot possibly compare the number of people that died on October 7th to the THOUSANDS of people that are currently being murdered daily in Gaza! The fact of the matter is we all know there is so much more to all of this then what is being presented - Israel's security does not fail.
The only terrorism taking place is the Israelis mass murdering women and children and murderous SS like you supporting the ongoing massacre, pretending you have no idea what the Israelis have been doing for the last number of decades. You're a disingenuous liar and a supremacist, just like the German Nazis were supremacists - that none of us should ever forget.
Collective punishment is a war crime. Deliberately slaughtering innocent women and children is a war crime. When this is all over, there needs to be a another Nuremberg trial, and every single, white supremacist war criminal responsible for this ongoing human atrocity - needs to be prosecuted for their psychopathic crimes against humanity.
None of us ever should ever forget people like you K. Paul - nor ever put up with your false justifications for the deliberate mass murder of women and children and non-combatants. Never again.
back up just a second: 'they are dropping bombs on a concentration camp full of children.'
don't you think there will be time to address your other grievances after they stopped bombing a concentration camp full of children?
there indeed seem to be people in the west who have it so good that they can not comprehend the depth of the evil of bombing a concentration camp full of children while pontificating that 'war is tragic and brutal, but sometimes necessary'.
Ok I’ll bite. Let’s back up in history before the Oct 7 attack and address the concerns when there is no bombing going on. Explain to me what the plan is, but remember, the two state solution is on the table only by Israel. The Palestinian leaders will not agree to anything that involves the State of Israel continuing to exist. So now you are in charge of the peace process. What’s the plan?
afaik, you did not bite, because you immediately back up in history, thus not addressing the bombing a concentration camp full of children. the two state solution was never really on the table in israel, they already have problems with more than one religion and ethnicity in one state.
Hamas is not oppressing Gaza and the West Bank. As a matter of fact there are no Hamas members in the West Bank and over 200 Palestinians have been murdered in the West Bank since Oct 7th.
The situation in Gaza is not a grey area for many reasons but many people have an instinctual need to make Israel the victims. That is not the case even though Israel would like you to believe that. Before I give you the details let me be clear that I do not support Hamas. Targeting civilians is not acceptable for anyone but also remember that the number of victims claimed by Israel is likely inflated because some were killed by friendly fire and some were armed settler militia members who cannot be counted as civilians. Now I will give you the reasons why this is not a grey area.
As a military man I do know about the rules of armed conflict. So let’s talk about that. By closing off the borders of Gaza 15 years ago Israel assumed the role of an occupation force. Under international law an occupation force is supposed to do everything possible to protect civilians under the occupation. Prior to the October 7 attack by Hamas the Israelis killed 6,000 civilians. That is a war crime according to international law. During that time they subjected the people of Gaza to periodic shortages of food, water, medicine and fuel. That is also a war crime. The communal punishment of a people for actions that they did not commit which is what is going on in Gaza right now is also a war crime. The population of Gaza is 2.3 million people. Hamas has approximately 20 thousand members or less than 1% percent of the population. Gaza is 141 sq miles for a population density of 16,000 people per sq mile . You can not plan a bombing campaign without understanding that there will be unacceptable civilian casualties. On top of that Israel has targeted schools, mosques, hospitals and three refugee camps including one in southern Gaza where they told civilians to evacuate to. Targeting schools, hospitals and refugee camps is a war crime. There is nothing collateral about this. It is a very deliberate attempt to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and ethnic cleansing and it is another war crime.
That was the plan all along according to a document leaked from the Israeli defense ministry.
Totaling ten pages, the main plans of the document detail the following stages:
1. Instruct Palestinian civilians to vacate north Gaza ahead of ground offensive.
2. Sequential land operations from north to south Gaza.
3. Routes across Rafah to be left clear.
4. Establish tent cities in northern Sinai and construct cities to resettle Palestinians in Egypt.
The UN definition of genocide is
Definition
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
a-Killing members of the group;
b-Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d-Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Israel met all five conditions to be guilty of the crime of genocide. Also a war crime.
Israel killed 6,000 Palestinians since the closing of Gaza, injured tens of thousands more, imprisoned 2.3 million Palestinians in the largest concentration camp the world has ever known, imprisoned an additional 4,500 hundred Palestinians including hundreds of women and children, and at least 1,000 adults being held indefinitely without charges, in Israeli jails, Israel periodically denied the people of Gaza food, water and medicine. All of this happened before the Hamas attack on Oct 7th.
LET ME REPEAT THAT LAST LINE:
ISRAEL COMMITTED WAR CRIMES, ETHNIC CLEANSING AND GENOCIDE BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.
The problem is that people in the West brainwashed by Israeli propaganda cannot comprehend the depth of the Israeli evil. They cannot fathom that the Israeli government shoots protesters in front of their families as well as targeting medical personnel and reporters. They cannot fathom how the Israeli government falsely imprisons thousands of Palestinians including hundreds of children and at least a thousand adults who have been held indefinitely without charges. They cannot imagine a country who lets their religious fanatic settlers beating, murdering and confiscating land from innocent Palestinians. Their is a side of the oppressor (Israel) and the oppressed (the Palestinians) Do not allow Israeli propaganda manipulate you into supporting the side of the oppressor. There is a reason people like Caitlin are supported by a chorus of voices. Many people who were fooled by Israel in the past now see what they truly are. The survivors of the holocaust who had the good will and best wishes of much of the world, squandered that good will by committing their own genocide against the Palestinians. This fact saddens me deeply.
It absolves no one, but a worldview that does not acknowledge the existence of human rights will make little progress toward it. The United States of America has consistently failed to live up to its ideals. The idea that "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence was in glaring contradiction to legalized slavery within the colonies and the newly formed United States. However, without this ideal, how much longer would slavery have continued?
There is no perfect country that has ever existed. Some make progress, and others regress into more oppression.
The same people in the United States who demand the use of a person's preferred pronouns are the same group defending Hamas. I have a hard time leveling this thinking. In our society, misgendering is something so offensive that we have politicians fighting about it.
In the Gaza Strip, women are oppressed, and you cannot be openly gay without fear of death. Girls have unequal access to education, and those who protest Hamas are tortured, imprisoned, or murdered.
So, no, the West is not absolved of evil, but at least we recognize what constitutes evil.
Although apparently, this is changing. We've so utterly lost our way that people justify the attack of Hamas on innocent children because Israel is "occupying" Gaza by maintaining a blockade against it for safety. This is something Egypt does as well, but nobody cares if Egypt does it. It only matters that Israel does it.
Well, ok... So, how about backing up to both the Holocaust *and* the Nakba? The latter, certainly the combo of the two, sure seems to me explain a lot of the past eight decades in ways that make the words "Good" and "Evil" evaporate here. I don't see that you've mentioned or answered it previously.
Nakba, do you even know where that quote comes from? It comes from Syrian historian Constantin Zureiq, and it is not used factually or the way he used it.
He writes:
"When the battle broke out, our public diplomacy began to speak of our imaginary victories, to put the Arab public to sleep and talk of the ability to overcome and win easily – until the Nakba happened…We must admit our mistakes…and recognize the extent of our responsibility for the disaster that is our lot."
This is not the only place that he used it, so the meaning of what he said is straightforward. Attacking the newly formed State of Israel was an Arab mistake, not Israel's fault for defending themselves.
Israel did indeed ask the Palestinian Arab population to stay. Israel did not want a war, and they were not prepared for one. The Jewish people living in that area had legally acquired land. They purchased it and improved it. However, when six Arab nations attacked them from all sides, Israel defended itself. Unfortunately, as a result of the conflict, part of the Palestinian population became refugees for various reasons. Who was told to leave and who was forced out is something historians debate. Indeed, some were forced out by the Israeli army, trying to avoid being attacked by Arabs who sided against the new State of Israel. Some were told to leave by Arab leaders, promising they could soon return after Israel was defeated. The fact is, Arab leaders did not want Arabs to join the new Israeli democracy because they did not want to legitimize Israel.
Israel won the war by some miracle. And the poor Palestinian refugees were not allowed to return to their homes.
All the surrounding Arab nations evicted Jewish people, seizing their property and causing a large number of Jewish refugees. But we don't hear about the Jewish refugees today. We only hear about the Palestinian refugees. Why?
Well, Israel took in the Jewish refugees. They did not live day by day, expecting to return to their homes. They started over. They rebuilt.
The Arab states, by and large, rejected the Palestinian refugees. They could have quickly relieved their plight, just as Israel had done for the Jewish refugees. But, to this day, they are still called refugees.
That is sad, but it is not new. Did Jewish people who survived World War II have homes to go back to? Did Japanese Americans return to their homes after their internment by the United States during World War II? Mostly, no. But do we hear about them being refugees today? No.
The fact is, this situation is not unique. People lost homes due to war many times throughout history. It is notable because of the length of time Palestinians have been considered refugees.
"Nakba, do you even know where that quote comes from?"
What's the point of saying that? How does that point tie in to complaining about my use of "Nakba"?
"It comes from Syrian historian Constantin Zureiq, ..."
Very good. (Pat on your head.) So? Let's get to your reason for insinuating this misdirection... (Hmmm, I think it *may* be the technique of ridicule...)
"... and it is not used factually or the way he used it."
(...Oops, guess he's not gonna do that.) Ok, I'll humor you, and go down your trail... So I'm back at my, 'Was it an event in which people were forcibly displaced, and worse?' Let's see...
"He writes: / 'When the battle broke out, our public diplomacy began to speak of our imaginary victories, to put the Arab public to sleep and talk of the ability to overcome and win easily – until the Nakba happened … We must admit our mistakes … and recognize the extent of our responsibility for the disaster that is our lot.' "
Which battle are we talking about here? What precipitated it? Seems that needs to be answered first, don't you think? So tell me about it.
In any case, you're apparently saying (via Zureiq), that because Palestinian authorities at the time (according to Zureiq) lied to its people and did not prepare themselves adequately, the Palestinians should feel shame, and should feel responsible for their failure? Sorry, I'm still not following your point. What does that have to do with the rightness or wrongness of occupying Palestinian land?
"This is not the only place that he used it, so the meaning of what he said is straightforward."
OK, so why don't you give me something more relevant?
"Attacking the newly formed State of Israel was an Arab mistake, not Israel's fault for defending themselves."
Again, how is any attack *subsequent* to a movement into a territory, or any more brazen land grab, whether a mistake (militarily?) or not, relevant to the displacement that triggered it?
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Ok let's move on.
"Israel did indeed ask the Palestinian Arab population to stay. Israel did not want a war, and they were not prepared for one. The Jewish people living in that area had legally acquired land. They purchased it and improved it. However, when six Arab nations attacked them from all sides, Israel defended itself. Unfortunately, as a result of the conflict, part of the Palestinian population became refugees for various reasons. Who was told to leave and who was forced out is something historians debate. Indeed, some were forced out by the Israeli army, trying to avoid being attacked by Arabs who sided against the new State of Israel. Some were told to leave by Arab leaders, promising they could soon return after Israel was defeated. The fact is, Arab leaders did not want Arabs to join the new Israeli democracy because they did not want to legitimize Israel."
That's certainly not the story I have heard. Many times, many different sources, for many years.
"Israel did indeed ask the Palestinian Arab population to stay."
Um... wouldn't it be the Palestinians asking the so-called newly-self-minted "Israelis" to stay? You know, on their land? Which was held by the colonist Brits?
"Israel did not want a war"
No, of course not. It wanted compliance.
"Unfortunately, as a result of the conflict, part of the Palestinian population became refugees for various reasons. Who was told to leave and who was forced out is something historians debate."
I see. "Various reasons", "something historians debate" ... yes, yes, any troubling parts can be handwaved away. Nothing buried in there might have caused any normal human to become intensely angry. No, this must be an inferior people, acting in an irrational and bloodthirsty way. After all, the future Israelis just plunked themselves into the middle of an empty desert, and were just minding their own business. Makes sense to me!
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And so your reply goes on, having deftly gotten past the naughty bits which would make a three-card-monte master blush, you begin to recount Israel's heroic fight for survival ever since. Gotcha.
Don't forget the indigenous people of the US who are STILL being screwed by the US government.
Back in 2000 when the US military was in Afghanistan and the poppy fields were blooming heroin started blooming in the fishing community where I lived. Coincidence? Shortly after we have the opioids crisis we are now "dealing" with. And now hallucinogens are being touted as a cure for PTSD and anxiety and depression which supposedly 70% of Americans are suffering from. And let's not forget all the other Rx drugs for ADHD and the other mental illnesses. This is a bigger issue than most people think. I've seen firsthand what hallucinogens do to people and it isn't good. Ayahuasca use and talking to a tree or a space alien doesn't seem to yield any benefits. It does however make you apathetic,braindead and antisocial. I always thought that mk ultra was a conspiracy theory but it was all about enhanced mind control and interrogation. And the "justice system" is a convenient means to imprison people for drug use for free labor for corporations. Brave new world and Soma. The US government is creating the drug problem for it's own benefits.
Our politicians and Corp executives are the ones who are mentally ill.
"The word “terrorism” has no meaning unless you apply it first and foremost to this murderous western civilization."
We folks living in the West must admit to all our crimes against humanity and make restitution and atone for them all. This includes making amends to our own indigenous peoples and those peoples whose ancestors we enslaved in the past with land back and reparations. We'll need to set up reconciliation courts and train advocates and adjudicators in how to deal with traumatized populations. Until we at least attempt to make these amends, we'll forever be 'terrorists" in the eyes of the world and within our own damaged souls.
"The word “terrorism” has no meaning unless you apply it first and foremost to this murderous western civilization."
It will certainly be a revolutionised world if the words terrorist, terrorism and terror are pinned on the West, on those who are culpable ( right up to this day) with their litany of crimes against humanity. Great human beings like Che - to cite one example - was murdered before he and the Cubans could help bring liberation to Africa. Cuba today is designated a 'terrorist state' by the Western empire and sanctioned and embargoed ( another terror weapon of empire) to the very limit.
Why would we call Hamas, terrorists? Why should we believe the propaganda of the West? Hamas is the government of Gaza. They have been giving a semblance of normality to a people living in a concentration camp. Like any caring government they looked after the people's welfare under very trying circumstances. Many are the times that I have been amazed how organised they were with ambulances and hospital care when Israeli bombs targeted their people countless of times before.
The US empire has been very generous with the term - anyone or any country which does not fall into line and subjugate themselves to be exploited gets branded. And together with it comes sanctions, wars, and attempts at regime change. The on going massacre of Palestinians by Israel has made westerners more aware of the crimes of their ruling classes past and present. Dare we hope that things will change, that people of the empire will demand change on the murdered bodies of the children of Gaza.
“I’ve seen so many dead kids while gathering information about this massacre. Never seen so many dead kids in my life. I’m already at the point where I see kids around the neighborhood and just feel reflexively grateful that they’re standing up and moving and breathing with all their inside parts on the inside, like kids are supposed to be.”
This is where I arrived yesterday. Thank you for describing it perfectly.
Also, in case you weren’t aware, your page is starting to be marked “insecure” on web browsers, I can only access through the App.
What does it tell us about the Israelis laying bombs down on the precious little ones, apparently unperturbed by their own murdering of new life, innocence? And what does Biden's active support - using our tax dollars - of this obscenity tell us about him? and his cohorts in his Administration? Deploying USA special forces and secret military sites in Israel? Is this what the USA has come to? Is this what it represents? Did we vote for this?
This argument takes up quite a bit of space. My own view is that the cabal (to use Churchill's term) is comprised of individuals whose location is essentially irrelevant. They can move to Bilderberg meetings or WHO meetings or Trilateral Commission meetings from wherever they happen to spend most time. They are globalists, and have no allegiance to a particular country. They will include people from Israel, the US, Britain, China...
Taking into account how wildly unpopular most western politicians and their policies are with their respective publics, "democracy" as it is practiced is basically a cover for rulers to do what they want. The technical term for this is a "beard".
After all, your elected representatives approved this. If you don't like it, you can vote for the othet carefully vetted corporate imperialist muppet next time around. Until then, shut up and fall in line!
I don't know if the relationship between Hamas and Netanyahu is well known, but they are, or were "buddies." Neither one supported a two state solution, so Netanyahu cultivated and endorsed them, paid them, built them up, and weakened Abbas, and turned the West Bank into a hell hole, If he can be that malignant did he also turn a blind eye to this assault? Israel can turn Gaza into an open door prison, where the majority who reside there are 18, or younger, live in poverty, and be ignored by the world. Gallant felt he could casually reference them as animals, and state they would be denied food, water, fuel before the attack first happened. Then of course this mass onslaught, destruction and death. Is Israel so arrogant they feel that all of this can be swept under the rug and forgotten, since the US is on their side and neither country pays any attention to international law and suffers no consequences as a result? I guess they feel there will be no price to pay, and I'm afraid there might never be. Perhaps bibi, will leave, and that will atone for Israel's sins? It certainly will not.
..Just a part of K. Kelly article!.....Is the mass slaughter of civilians self-defence?
Every person has the right to life and to self-defence, but Israel’s “right to self-defence” is constantly being used to obfuscate the non-defensive nature of its military violence in Palestinian territory.
Israel’s self-defence is a lie, not just because their actions are not defensive but because Israel cannot legally use its military in self-defence against Palestinians.
Let me repeat that, Israel cannot legally use its military against Palestinians in self-defence. That is the big lie at the heart of the current horrors.
There are four reasons why Israel cannot cite a legal right to self-defence in response to Palestinian violence.
First and foremost is that the ability of a very strong military power to achieve anything defensive by the attrition of a much weaker military power is spurious and leads into the genocidal logic of attempting to deprive a people of all capacity for violence.
The second reason is that Israel is actively contravening UN Security Council resolutions and the UN Charter is very clear on the fact that the right to self-defence exists “until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.” A state that works to thwart UNSC measures to maintain peace and security cannot logically be extended the unimpaired right to self defence.
On the third count Israel is an occupying power and the occupied have a legal right to armed resistance. It would be nonsensical to accord a legal right to use arms to defend against another’s legal resistance.
Fourthly, it would be equally paradoxical to allow each party to act in self-defence against each other’s acts of self defence. Thus one of the parties must be the aggressor. On several counts, not least its defiance of UNSC resolutions, Israel must be considered the aggressor. TRUTH HURTS!
Thank you for pointing out these facts for the uninitiated.
In truth, I have more sorrow in my heart for the cats, horses and donkeys being killed in Gaza than I do for any Israeli’s death. The non-human creatures are innocent; the Zios brought this upon themselves.
The analogy is appropriate, as the point is one needs to discriminate between self-defense (legitimate) and retaliation (illegitimate): love (legitimate) and rape (illegitimate).
It's not a bruse that's defending itself but who can still lift that arm to do it. The west insist a defensive act by Hamas for the abuse of the last 80 years constitutes an attack..while Israel's attack response is said to be the right to defence.
Maybe if i spot what looks like a Hamas looking guy near NYC we should start carpet bombing Brooklyn.
I have come to the conclusion that USrAel is a death cult and its supporters are weak minded sycophants.
The world is deviding itself up between the empathetic human and the psycopaths..
Israel does not have the right to cite self-defense as justification for its military operations in Gaza because it is an “occupying power,” Russia’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations Vassily Nebenzia told an emergency special session of the UN General Assembly on Wednesday.
They just want to kill all the Palestinians or move them permanently somewhere else, like the Sinai desert, so the nice Jewish families can have "lebensraum" without "rabid dogs in the house".
Everyone is terrified of being labeled: antisemitic. And then there's the Holocaust thrown in our faces.....It's over, Israel, you're a rotten country full of rotten leaders and a huge % of of your citizens are as complicit as those Germans in WW2. The excuses and lies: 'Oh well, this is a war. so children get bombed...tough shit."
Thank you for the link....Interview w/ Roger Waters.
Of course anti-semitic means anti Jewish. There are good decent Jews in Israel and all over the world but, they can do not much. Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe and others like them have no credibility with the majority (99%) of Israelis. The good guys are not going to win.
*And yet none of her reporting highlighted comments made to the Israeli Haaretz newspaper by Tuval Escapa, the kibbutz’s security coordinator. He said Israeli military commanders had ordered the “shelling [of] houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages”.
That echoed the testimony of Yasmin Porat, who sought shelter in Be’eri from the nearby Nova music festival. She told Israeli Radio that once Israeli special forces arrived: “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages because there was very, very heavy crossfire.”*
Dear Caitlin, I'm amazed that you continue finding new words to describe this ongoing horror with such eloquence and compassion. I myself am aghast and beyond speechless in the face of what Israel is doing and what the U.S. is supporting. Bless you for keeping on keeping on . . .
Back up just a second. How exactly is she compassionate to the plight of the Palestinians? Has she asked someone living in Gaza what they feel when they aren't under threat from Hamas?
Do you think innocent Palestinians enjoy Hamas rule when they are imprisoned, beaten, or killed for daring to protest Hamas? Do you think Palestinian gay people enjoy living in fear because the "honorable" thing to do is kill them? Do you think Palestinian women enjoy being second-class citizens where their testimony is worth half that of a man? Do you think they want to live in a place where domestic abuse is not against the law and raping your wife is legal? Do you think young girls prefer to go to segregated schools where they have unequal access to education? Do you think mothers are proud of their young boys being trained to fight under the promise that they will inherit 70 virgins in paradise? I guess women should be proud that their place is to serve a man sexually in the afterlife.
The fact is, Israel is the one with the Western ideals you take for granted. You can criticize the actions of your government. Palestinians cannot. You can protest violence against innocent people, but Palestinians will become the victims of violence if they do. You can cry out for help from your government in a time of need, but Palestinians can count on Hamas to steal any human aid to use it for Hamas and their family.
Standing against Israel is standing against the one hope that innocent Palestinians have of eliminating the disease that is Hamas because no one else, not you, Caitlin, or the UN, actually cares about liberating innocent Palestinians so they can enjoy human rights. If you spoke to a Palestinian who was not under threat of death, which some people have done to put their responses online, they would tell you that they welcome the removal of Hamas, whether Jewish people do it or someone else. Their primary fear is not the damage done to Gaza by Israel if Hamas is eliminated; it is that Israel will begin the process and then be manipulated by international pressure to withdraw before completing its mission, resulting in massive damage to Gaza without actually removing Hamas.
Their primary fear is people like you, Deb, who care so little or who are so uninformed that you cheer on people like Caitlin. When all these voices combine to call for a cease-fire with Evil, it culminates in international pressure to stop Israel. A call that prevents them from doing the ONE THING that would benefit innocent Palestinians: the complete removal of Hamas.
You have bought into the terrible idea that the West is the evil one, not realizing that the concept of human rights comes from the West. Do you think Palestinians enjoy human rights in Gaza? They don't. And they cannot until Hamas is eliminated.
The only Palestinians enjoying human rights in that region are the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. Go figure.
So, as you sleep in peace and safety tonight, remember that you are supporting the continuing oppression of Palestinians. Many people have given their lives trying to obtain the freedoms you enjoy. War is tragic. War is brutal. War is sometimes necessary to prevent Evil from committing more evil. The collateral damage caused by fighting Evil is not the fault of the country that Evil attacked. It is the result of Evil itself. If you hope for peace and safety in Gaza, the only way to liberate Gaza is to eliminate the Evil that is Hamas. That will cost innocent lives now because Hamas will ensure it. They sacrifice innocent lives to manipulate people like Caitlin to disguise the atrocities they commit. But eliminating Hamas now will save countless lives in the future. The cost of removing Hamas is a terrible price to pay, but it is far better than the price of allowing Hamas to continue its war of aggression and oppression.
The problem is that people in the West have it so good they cannot comprehend the depth of Hamas' evil. They cannot fathom someone putting a baby inside an oven and turning it on. They cannot fathom a government that shoots protestors in front of their families. They cannot fathom a place without a police station or hotline to lodge a complaint against a government falsely imprisoning, beating, raping, or murdering a family member.
There is a side of Evil and a side of Good in this conflict. Do not allow people to manipulate you into supporting the side of Evil. As a result of the chorus of voices like Caitlin's, evil will likely prevail in Gaza. And innocent people will continue to suffer and die as a result.
Actually K. Paul not many of us can comprehend the USA giving more money to Israel while it slowly kills every Palestinian living in Gaza. You have swallowed the propaganda that this is about Hamas. It is not.
It is about Israel wanting more land and using the idea of Hamas as a shield for more atrocity's.
But the USA did even worse to the people of Afghanistan for 20 years. And declared them terrrorists for resisting.
So please explain the math here. Israel is slowly killing every Palestinian in Gaza. Why is their population increasing?
Israel has offered the Palestinians a two-state solution multiple times, and it has consistently declined. Israel does not want Gaza; it wants peace. Hamas does not want peace; it wants to murder Jewish people.
So, if the answer is to stop trying to eliminate terrorists, what is your plan? Open the borders with Gaza, and then all the Hamas militants that shoot children with weapons automagically become good, wholesome citizens? Please explain to me how this works... I assume you've never negotiated with a man who will put your baby in an oven and turn it on. What do you plan to say to them? You must have a perfect plan. Right?
So exterminating them wholesale is the solution? Nobody is saying they have the perfect solution. This has been going on for centuries. Nobody is saying they think the way women/homosexuals/dissenters in Palestine is in any way shape or form a shining beacon of freedom and hope. What we are all saying is the bombing of these people is wrong. Full stop.
Well the population sure is not increasing now!
Of course Israel wants Gaza...open your eyes. Their people are producing fas too.
Hamas was voted in by the Palestinian people.
The Israelis' voted in Netanyahu so please tell me who are the terrorists here?
Of course I would have a plan....which has restricted access!
Wow, You ust really work to come up with a narrative where the people of Gaa are welcoming being bombed and shot, thousands more dying each few days, with a government that is intent on pushing them out of their homeland for good but it's all fine because the Jews are better for women and gays--for JEWISH women and gays, that is. Palestinian women may be glad to see a relaxing of the sexism of Islam (which varies--whether it's really as you depict it in Gaza, I don't know) but I guarantee that will take a back seat when their entire people are being exterminated, oh excuse me LIBERATED by the Zionists.
See, and isn't that precisely the point? You don't even know how women in Gaza are treated, yet you are sure you understand what is best... When Gazans blame Hamas for starting this current war on Oct 7, they are silenced by Hamas. Hamas only allows the voices of those who blame Israel.
So here is a thought. If Israel wanted to exterminate the residents in Gaza, don't you think they would make sure they were in their homes rather than warning them before they dropped bombs? I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas. If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered the murderers responsible for Oct 7, this would be over TODAY. Hamas could end this conflict. Yet you don't call for Hamas to do anything.
Israel is so committed to peace that they created the Iron Dome to shoot rockets out of the sky. Tell me one other country that puts up with rockets being fired at their cities and, instead of wiping out the terrorists completely, creates a system to shoot down rockets. Any come to mind?
The Iron Dome was invented so they could avoid what they are ultimately having to do anyway: invade Gaza to remove Hamas. Unfortunately, Israel listened to the world when they said they should leave Gaza. They left. That made things worse. Hamas overran Gaza via a brutal and bloody civil war. Then, Israel implemented a blockade to protect themselves from terrorist attacks and an Iron Dome to shoot down rockets. As much as possible, Israel operated in cease-fire mode. Do you remember what happened next? Hamas planned a massive attack to murder innocent people, including mothers, young children, and grandparents.
So what is your solution? Is your plan is to continue the same thing that led to the current situation - leaving Hamas in control of Gaza, where they will plan the next attack? You act as if Israel could open their border with Gaza, and suddenly, Hamas militants would just calmly become good, wholesome fathers who don't put babies in ovens anymore. Think about it. Hamas was formed looooong before Gaza was cordoned off and had a blockade. The goal of Hamas is not a two-state solution; it is the elimination of Israel. Good luck with peace.
So instead, let's just continue the status quo, with terrorists ruling Gaza, so that you can say you were the morally superior person by accusing Israel of war crimes when they respond to terrorist attacks.
How about you offer a solution that brings peace? What is your grand answer to terrorists governing Gaza? How do you stop the violence and give freedom to Palestinians? Since a cease-fire with Hamas is best, what is the plan?
😂😂 😂
Now TELL me, just who IS IT that’s “depriving the Palestinians of their freedom”?
A Palestinian can’t even harvest his olives without being shot dead by squatters—and Hamas has no sway in the West Bank!
Go peddle your nonsense elsewhere.
where does hamas only allow the voices of those who blame israel? where does it have that power?
israel is sophisticated enough to know how to put lipstick on a pig (hence the 'warnings')
'the us is so committed to peace that it puts anti-ballistic missiles in poland and rumania'. the entire world has to put up with the threat of nuclear powers annihilating cities without an iron dome. the us is working to get rid of the mad-doctrine. they thought it kinda worked in israel: put up an anti-rocket dome and you don't have to negotiate about anything anymore.
imo, it is pretty obvious that israeli governments and leaders have always wanted to not only 'remove hamas' but genocide the palestinians (including the oppressed women you mentioned). doing their utmost to signal they 'have to'.
'the same thing that led to the current situation' from the perspective of hamas where israel is not 'destroyed' but 'contained', has indeed led to 'mowing the lawn' (you undoubtedly are familiar with that expression).
in its 2017 charter hamas compromised (again) accepting the 1967 borders. 'somehow' this did not gain traction.
plan: ceasefire now, exchange of prisoners (proposed about 4 times by hamas), end of us (military and political) support for israel, negotiations for a viable palistinian state (backed up by bds), 'right to return' for palestinian refugees, end of the apartheid ethno state and settler policy, ...
US asks Israel for ‘explanation’ of strike on Gaza refugee camp
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-explanation-of-some-airstrikes-in-gaza-00125294
Hamas are freedom fighters. They won't be eliminated. their numbers will increase now. They kicked Israel's ass, showed them what sissies the Israeli military is....10 hours before the so called military showed up for the party?
Another point: Israel does not care about the hostages/captives....I think half of them aren't even Israeli (11 from Thailand doing field work at below minimum wage) . The way they have been bombing...did they know where the captives are being held? Of course they didn't; now they know they're in a tunnel. So now they are bombing and shooting into tunnels. Those captives won't be going home and it will be blamed on Hamas, which is apparently protecting them from harm.
Israel stepped in poo poo with this violent insane beastly reaction...and for 70 years, behaving to a population like Nazis. The world will NOT forgive.
{I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas.}
I don't want to get involved in your argument but you are aware that it has been confirmed that the vast majority of Israel's who perished on October 7th were actually shot and killed by the IDF. My point is you cannot possibly compare the number of people that died on October 7th to the THOUSANDS of people that are currently being murdered daily in Gaza! The fact of the matter is we all know there is so much more to all of this then what is being presented - Israel's security does not fail.
K. Paul, my only question is who pays your salary? IDF, Mossad, AIPAC, the UK’s Behavioural Insights Team, or the US Army’s 4th PSYOP Group?
Exactly. Sock puppet. Sent out to cloud the facts.
GCHQ/MOD also has a sock puppet army:
https://www.theregister.com/2014/11/14/poll_trolls_script_sock_puppets_manipulate_muppets/
My only reward is the grief I receive from terrorist sympathizers/supporters.
The only terrorism taking place is the Israelis mass murdering women and children and murderous SS like you supporting the ongoing massacre, pretending you have no idea what the Israelis have been doing for the last number of decades. You're a disingenuous liar and a supremacist, just like the German Nazis were supremacists - that none of us should ever forget.
Collective punishment is a war crime. Deliberately slaughtering innocent women and children is a war crime. When this is all over, there needs to be a another Nuremberg trial, and every single, white supremacist war criminal responsible for this ongoing human atrocity - needs to be prosecuted for their psychopathic crimes against humanity.
None of us ever should ever forget people like you K. Paul - nor ever put up with your false justifications for the deliberate mass murder of women and children and non-combatants. Never again.
Hope you enjoyed the Kool Ade; what flavor was it? “Brainwashed”?
https://annebonnypirate.org/2021/08/17/afghanistan-the-end-of-the-occupation/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afghan-women
I think you will find that Palestinians find Israeli soldiers and their behaviour far more objectionable than their (Palestinian) social norms.
Listen to Kim Iverson's reaction to visiting Palestine several years ago. She thought like you before that.
I know at least two humans who visited Israel as liberal-minded humans and returned as antisemites after seeing how Israelis treated Palestinians.
Maybe so in the West Bank. It's obviously different there. Did she visit Gaza or the West Bank?
back up just a second: 'they are dropping bombs on a concentration camp full of children.'
don't you think there will be time to address your other grievances after they stopped bombing a concentration camp full of children?
there indeed seem to be people in the west who have it so good that they can not comprehend the depth of the evil of bombing a concentration camp full of children while pontificating that 'war is tragic and brutal, but sometimes necessary'.
(i sure hope you are not doing this for free)
Ok I’ll bite. Let’s back up in history before the Oct 7 attack and address the concerns when there is no bombing going on. Explain to me what the plan is, but remember, the two state solution is on the table only by Israel. The Palestinian leaders will not agree to anything that involves the State of Israel continuing to exist. So now you are in charge of the peace process. What’s the plan?
afaik, you did not bite, because you immediately back up in history, thus not addressing the bombing a concentration camp full of children. the two state solution was never really on the table in israel, they already have problems with more than one religion and ethnicity in one state.
Hamas is not oppressing Gaza and the West Bank. As a matter of fact there are no Hamas members in the West Bank and over 200 Palestinians have been murdered in the West Bank since Oct 7th.
The situation in Gaza is not a grey area for many reasons but many people have an instinctual need to make Israel the victims. That is not the case even though Israel would like you to believe that. Before I give you the details let me be clear that I do not support Hamas. Targeting civilians is not acceptable for anyone but also remember that the number of victims claimed by Israel is likely inflated because some were killed by friendly fire and some were armed settler militia members who cannot be counted as civilians. Now I will give you the reasons why this is not a grey area.
As a military man I do know about the rules of armed conflict. So let’s talk about that. By closing off the borders of Gaza 15 years ago Israel assumed the role of an occupation force. Under international law an occupation force is supposed to do everything possible to protect civilians under the occupation. Prior to the October 7 attack by Hamas the Israelis killed 6,000 civilians. That is a war crime according to international law. During that time they subjected the people of Gaza to periodic shortages of food, water, medicine and fuel. That is also a war crime. The communal punishment of a people for actions that they did not commit which is what is going on in Gaza right now is also a war crime. The population of Gaza is 2.3 million people. Hamas has approximately 20 thousand members or less than 1% percent of the population. Gaza is 141 sq miles for a population density of 16,000 people per sq mile . You can not plan a bombing campaign without understanding that there will be unacceptable civilian casualties. On top of that Israel has targeted schools, mosques, hospitals and three refugee camps including one in southern Gaza where they told civilians to evacuate to. Targeting schools, hospitals and refugee camps is a war crime. There is nothing collateral about this. It is a very deliberate attempt to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and ethnic cleansing and it is another war crime.
That was the plan all along according to a document leaked from the Israeli defense ministry.
Totaling ten pages, the main plans of the document detail the following stages:
1. Instruct Palestinian civilians to vacate north Gaza ahead of ground offensive.
2. Sequential land operations from north to south Gaza.
3. Routes across Rafah to be left clear.
4. Establish tent cities in northern Sinai and construct cities to resettle Palestinians in Egypt.
The UN definition of genocide is
Definition
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
a-Killing members of the group;
b-Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d-Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Israel met all five conditions to be guilty of the crime of genocide. Also a war crime.
Israel killed 6,000 Palestinians since the closing of Gaza, injured tens of thousands more, imprisoned 2.3 million Palestinians in the largest concentration camp the world has ever known, imprisoned an additional 4,500 hundred Palestinians including hundreds of women and children, and at least 1,000 adults being held indefinitely without charges, in Israeli jails, Israel periodically denied the people of Gaza food, water and medicine. All of this happened before the Hamas attack on Oct 7th.
LET ME REPEAT THAT LAST LINE:
ISRAEL COMMITTED WAR CRIMES, ETHNIC CLEANSING AND GENOCIDE BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.
The problem is that people in the West brainwashed by Israeli propaganda cannot comprehend the depth of the Israeli evil. They cannot fathom that the Israeli government shoots protesters in front of their families as well as targeting medical personnel and reporters. They cannot fathom how the Israeli government falsely imprisons thousands of Palestinians including hundreds of children and at least a thousand adults who have been held indefinitely without charges. They cannot imagine a country who lets their religious fanatic settlers beating, murdering and confiscating land from innocent Palestinians. Their is a side of the oppressor (Israel) and the oppressed (the Palestinians) Do not allow Israeli propaganda manipulate you into supporting the side of the oppressor. There is a reason people like Caitlin are supported by a chorus of voices. Many people who were fooled by Israel in the past now see what they truly are. The survivors of the holocaust who had the good will and best wishes of much of the world, squandered that good will by committing their own genocide against the Palestinians. This fact saddens me deeply.
Your suggestion that the West is somehow absolved of evil on account of it being the origin of human rights (?) is genuinely absurd.
It absolves no one, but a worldview that does not acknowledge the existence of human rights will make little progress toward it. The United States of America has consistently failed to live up to its ideals. The idea that "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence was in glaring contradiction to legalized slavery within the colonies and the newly formed United States. However, without this ideal, how much longer would slavery have continued?
There is no perfect country that has ever existed. Some make progress, and others regress into more oppression.
The same people in the United States who demand the use of a person's preferred pronouns are the same group defending Hamas. I have a hard time leveling this thinking. In our society, misgendering is something so offensive that we have politicians fighting about it.
In the Gaza Strip, women are oppressed, and you cannot be openly gay without fear of death. Girls have unequal access to education, and those who protest Hamas are tortured, imprisoned, or murdered.
So, no, the West is not absolved of evil, but at least we recognize what constitutes evil.
Although apparently, this is changing. We've so utterly lost our way that people justify the attack of Hamas on innocent children because Israel is "occupying" Gaza by maintaining a blockade against it for safety. This is something Egypt does as well, but nobody cares if Egypt does it. It only matters that Israel does it.
20:33
https://www.bitchute.com/video/d2VrasAzCuyC/
"Back up just a second."
Well, ok... So, how about backing up to both the Holocaust *and* the Nakba? The latter, certainly the combo of the two, sure seems to me explain a lot of the past eight decades in ways that make the words "Good" and "Evil" evaporate here. I don't see that you've mentioned or answered it previously.
Nakba, do you even know where that quote comes from? It comes from Syrian historian Constantin Zureiq, and it is not used factually or the way he used it.
He writes:
"When the battle broke out, our public diplomacy began to speak of our imaginary victories, to put the Arab public to sleep and talk of the ability to overcome and win easily – until the Nakba happened…We must admit our mistakes…and recognize the extent of our responsibility for the disaster that is our lot."
This is not the only place that he used it, so the meaning of what he said is straightforward. Attacking the newly formed State of Israel was an Arab mistake, not Israel's fault for defending themselves.
Israel did indeed ask the Palestinian Arab population to stay. Israel did not want a war, and they were not prepared for one. The Jewish people living in that area had legally acquired land. They purchased it and improved it. However, when six Arab nations attacked them from all sides, Israel defended itself. Unfortunately, as a result of the conflict, part of the Palestinian population became refugees for various reasons. Who was told to leave and who was forced out is something historians debate. Indeed, some were forced out by the Israeli army, trying to avoid being attacked by Arabs who sided against the new State of Israel. Some were told to leave by Arab leaders, promising they could soon return after Israel was defeated. The fact is, Arab leaders did not want Arabs to join the new Israeli democracy because they did not want to legitimize Israel.
Israel won the war by some miracle. And the poor Palestinian refugees were not allowed to return to their homes.
All the surrounding Arab nations evicted Jewish people, seizing their property and causing a large number of Jewish refugees. But we don't hear about the Jewish refugees today. We only hear about the Palestinian refugees. Why?
Well, Israel took in the Jewish refugees. They did not live day by day, expecting to return to their homes. They started over. They rebuilt.
The Arab states, by and large, rejected the Palestinian refugees. They could have quickly relieved their plight, just as Israel had done for the Jewish refugees. But, to this day, they are still called refugees.
That is sad, but it is not new. Did Jewish people who survived World War II have homes to go back to? Did Japanese Americans return to their homes after their internment by the United States during World War II? Mostly, no. But do we hear about them being refugees today? No.
The fact is, this situation is not unique. People lost homes due to war many times throughout history. It is notable because of the length of time Palestinians have been considered refugees.
"Nakba, do you even know where that quote comes from?"
What's the point of saying that? How does that point tie in to complaining about my use of "Nakba"?
"It comes from Syrian historian Constantin Zureiq, ..."
Very good. (Pat on your head.) So? Let's get to your reason for insinuating this misdirection... (Hmmm, I think it *may* be the technique of ridicule...)
"... and it is not used factually or the way he used it."
(...Oops, guess he's not gonna do that.) Ok, I'll humor you, and go down your trail... So I'm back at my, 'Was it an event in which people were forcibly displaced, and worse?' Let's see...
"He writes: / 'When the battle broke out, our public diplomacy began to speak of our imaginary victories, to put the Arab public to sleep and talk of the ability to overcome and win easily – until the Nakba happened … We must admit our mistakes … and recognize the extent of our responsibility for the disaster that is our lot.' "
Which battle are we talking about here? What precipitated it? Seems that needs to be answered first, don't you think? So tell me about it.
In any case, you're apparently saying (via Zureiq), that because Palestinian authorities at the time (according to Zureiq) lied to its people and did not prepare themselves adequately, the Palestinians should feel shame, and should feel responsible for their failure? Sorry, I'm still not following your point. What does that have to do with the rightness or wrongness of occupying Palestinian land?
"This is not the only place that he used it, so the meaning of what he said is straightforward."
OK, so why don't you give me something more relevant?
"Attacking the newly formed State of Israel was an Arab mistake, not Israel's fault for defending themselves."
Again, how is any attack *subsequent* to a movement into a territory, or any more brazen land grab, whether a mistake (militarily?) or not, relevant to the displacement that triggered it?
---------------------
Ok let's move on.
"Israel did indeed ask the Palestinian Arab population to stay. Israel did not want a war, and they were not prepared for one. The Jewish people living in that area had legally acquired land. They purchased it and improved it. However, when six Arab nations attacked them from all sides, Israel defended itself. Unfortunately, as a result of the conflict, part of the Palestinian population became refugees for various reasons. Who was told to leave and who was forced out is something historians debate. Indeed, some were forced out by the Israeli army, trying to avoid being attacked by Arabs who sided against the new State of Israel. Some were told to leave by Arab leaders, promising they could soon return after Israel was defeated. The fact is, Arab leaders did not want Arabs to join the new Israeli democracy because they did not want to legitimize Israel."
That's certainly not the story I have heard. Many times, many different sources, for many years.
"Israel did indeed ask the Palestinian Arab population to stay."
Um... wouldn't it be the Palestinians asking the so-called newly-self-minted "Israelis" to stay? You know, on their land? Which was held by the colonist Brits?
"Israel did not want a war"
No, of course not. It wanted compliance.
"Unfortunately, as a result of the conflict, part of the Palestinian population became refugees for various reasons. Who was told to leave and who was forced out is something historians debate."
I see. "Various reasons", "something historians debate" ... yes, yes, any troubling parts can be handwaved away. Nothing buried in there might have caused any normal human to become intensely angry. No, this must be an inferior people, acting in an irrational and bloodthirsty way. After all, the future Israelis just plunked themselves into the middle of an empty desert, and were just minding their own business. Makes sense to me!
--------------------
And so your reply goes on, having deftly gotten past the naughty bits which would make a three-card-monte master blush, you begin to recount Israel's heroic fight for survival ever since. Gotcha.
Yes! And bless Caitlin, from Deb and all of us " for keeping on keeping on...".
I agree and think she deserves a Pulitzer for all she is doing!!
"When the holocaust returned in the 21st century it came denouncing anti-semitism and wearing a Star of David.", very sad and true.
You are so right
Don't forget the indigenous people of the US who are STILL being screwed by the US government.
Back in 2000 when the US military was in Afghanistan and the poppy fields were blooming heroin started blooming in the fishing community where I lived. Coincidence? Shortly after we have the opioids crisis we are now "dealing" with. And now hallucinogens are being touted as a cure for PTSD and anxiety and depression which supposedly 70% of Americans are suffering from. And let's not forget all the other Rx drugs for ADHD and the other mental illnesses. This is a bigger issue than most people think. I've seen firsthand what hallucinogens do to people and it isn't good. Ayahuasca use and talking to a tree or a space alien doesn't seem to yield any benefits. It does however make you apathetic,braindead and antisocial. I always thought that mk ultra was a conspiracy theory but it was all about enhanced mind control and interrogation. And the "justice system" is a convenient means to imprison people for drug use for free labor for corporations. Brave new world and Soma. The US government is creating the drug problem for it's own benefits.
Our politicians and Corp executives are the ones who are mentally ill.
... and Afghan poppy fields needed lot of protection.
Interesting. I hear that lyric as "... then you suffer superstition". (Not that it makes much difference).
"The word “terrorism” has no meaning unless you apply it first and foremost to this murderous western civilization."
We folks living in the West must admit to all our crimes against humanity and make restitution and atone for them all. This includes making amends to our own indigenous peoples and those peoples whose ancestors we enslaved in the past with land back and reparations. We'll need to set up reconciliation courts and train advocates and adjudicators in how to deal with traumatized populations. Until we at least attempt to make these amends, we'll forever be 'terrorists" in the eyes of the world and within our own damaged souls.
Spot on.
"The word “terrorism” has no meaning unless you apply it first and foremost to this murderous western civilization."
It will certainly be a revolutionised world if the words terrorist, terrorism and terror are pinned on the West, on those who are culpable ( right up to this day) with their litany of crimes against humanity. Great human beings like Che - to cite one example - was murdered before he and the Cubans could help bring liberation to Africa. Cuba today is designated a 'terrorist state' by the Western empire and sanctioned and embargoed ( another terror weapon of empire) to the very limit.
Why would we call Hamas, terrorists? Why should we believe the propaganda of the West? Hamas is the government of Gaza. They have been giving a semblance of normality to a people living in a concentration camp. Like any caring government they looked after the people's welfare under very trying circumstances. Many are the times that I have been amazed how organised they were with ambulances and hospital care when Israeli bombs targeted their people countless of times before.
The US empire has been very generous with the term - anyone or any country which does not fall into line and subjugate themselves to be exploited gets branded. And together with it comes sanctions, wars, and attempts at regime change. The on going massacre of Palestinians by Israel has made westerners more aware of the crimes of their ruling classes past and present. Dare we hope that things will change, that people of the empire will demand change on the murdered bodies of the children of Gaza.
Indy, what a precise and accurate comment! Bravo!
“I’ve seen so many dead kids while gathering information about this massacre. Never seen so many dead kids in my life. I’m already at the point where I see kids around the neighborhood and just feel reflexively grateful that they’re standing up and moving and breathing with all their inside parts on the inside, like kids are supposed to be.”
This is where I arrived yesterday. Thank you for describing it perfectly.
Also, in case you weren’t aware, your page is starting to be marked “insecure” on web browsers, I can only access through the App.
What does it tell us about the Israelis laying bombs down on the precious little ones, apparently unperturbed by their own murdering of new life, innocence? And what does Biden's active support - using our tax dollars - of this obscenity tell us about him? and his cohorts in his Administration? Deploying USA special forces and secret military sites in Israel? Is this what the USA has come to? Is this what it represents? Did we vote for this?
Unfortunately, this is not what it’s come to, this is what its been for a very long time.
Most certainly you did but it does seem that Biden was foisted on you by the DNC!
Get them out first.
This argument takes up quite a bit of space. My own view is that the cabal (to use Churchill's term) is comprised of individuals whose location is essentially irrelevant. They can move to Bilderberg meetings or WHO meetings or Trilateral Commission meetings from wherever they happen to spend most time. They are globalists, and have no allegiance to a particular country. They will include people from Israel, the US, Britain, China...
I see, lower down the chain of control. Yes, my comment would have been more appropriate to someone talking about the very top.
Taking into account how wildly unpopular most western politicians and their policies are with their respective publics, "democracy" as it is practiced is basically a cover for rulers to do what they want. The technical term for this is a "beard".
After all, your elected representatives approved this. If you don't like it, you can vote for the othet carefully vetted corporate imperialist muppet next time around. Until then, shut up and fall in line!
Chris Hedges interview with Dennis Kucinich is excellent, an eye opener. Bombing children is what evil doers do! NOT IN MY NAME!
Very well said. Children are being killed by the thousands. It does not matter why, it must be stopped. Indefensible
And it must be stopped now.
I don't know if the relationship between Hamas and Netanyahu is well known, but they are, or were "buddies." Neither one supported a two state solution, so Netanyahu cultivated and endorsed them, paid them, built them up, and weakened Abbas, and turned the West Bank into a hell hole, If he can be that malignant did he also turn a blind eye to this assault? Israel can turn Gaza into an open door prison, where the majority who reside there are 18, or younger, live in poverty, and be ignored by the world. Gallant felt he could casually reference them as animals, and state they would be denied food, water, fuel before the attack first happened. Then of course this mass onslaught, destruction and death. Is Israel so arrogant they feel that all of this can be swept under the rug and forgotten, since the US is on their side and neither country pays any attention to international law and suffers no consequences as a result? I guess they feel there will be no price to pay, and I'm afraid there might never be. Perhaps bibi, will leave, and that will atone for Israel's sins? It certainly will not.
Netanyahu allies push Gaza expulsion as final solution to Israel’s Palestinian problem
October 23, 2023 12:45 PM CDT BY C.J. ATKINS
I don't think the final solution was only assisted by Hamas.
https://peoplesworld.org/article/netanyahu-allies-push-expulsion-of-gazans-as-final-solution-to-israels-palestinian-problem/
..Just a part of K. Kelly article!.....Is the mass slaughter of civilians self-defence?
Every person has the right to life and to self-defence, but Israel’s “right to self-defence” is constantly being used to obfuscate the non-defensive nature of its military violence in Palestinian territory.
Israel’s self-defence is a lie, not just because their actions are not defensive but because Israel cannot legally use its military in self-defence against Palestinians.
Let me repeat that, Israel cannot legally use its military against Palestinians in self-defence. That is the big lie at the heart of the current horrors.
There are four reasons why Israel cannot cite a legal right to self-defence in response to Palestinian violence.
First and foremost is that the ability of a very strong military power to achieve anything defensive by the attrition of a much weaker military power is spurious and leads into the genocidal logic of attempting to deprive a people of all capacity for violence.
The second reason is that Israel is actively contravening UN Security Council resolutions and the UN Charter is very clear on the fact that the right to self-defence exists “until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.” A state that works to thwart UNSC measures to maintain peace and security cannot logically be extended the unimpaired right to self defence.
On the third count Israel is an occupying power and the occupied have a legal right to armed resistance. It would be nonsensical to accord a legal right to use arms to defend against another’s legal resistance.
Fourthly, it would be equally paradoxical to allow each party to act in self-defence against each other’s acts of self defence. Thus one of the parties must be the aggressor. On several counts, not least its defiance of UNSC resolutions, Israel must be considered the aggressor. TRUTH HURTS!
This is excellent. Where did you get it from, please? Who is K. Kelly?
Thank you for pointing out these facts for the uninitiated.
In truth, I have more sorrow in my heart for the cats, horses and donkeys being killed in Gaza than I do for any Israeli’s death. The non-human creatures are innocent; the Zios brought this upon themselves.
Israel's claim to having the right to defend itself is the equivalent of a rapist claiming the right to love a woman.
I think your analogy breaks down when you use the word love.
The analogy is appropriate, as the point is one needs to discriminate between self-defense (legitimate) and retaliation (illegitimate): love (legitimate) and rape (illegitimate).
I believe that would more aptly be called rape.
It's not a bruse that's defending itself but who can still lift that arm to do it. The west insist a defensive act by Hamas for the abuse of the last 80 years constitutes an attack..while Israel's attack response is said to be the right to defence.
Maybe if i spot what looks like a Hamas looking guy near NYC we should start carpet bombing Brooklyn.
I have come to the conclusion that USrAel is a death cult and its supporters are weak minded sycophants.
The world is deviding itself up between the empathetic human and the psycopaths..
Take note who is who. This is your litmus test.
I’d love to see Noo Yawk City carpet-bombed.
They are murdering children. It is so hard to see people getting arrested for objecting to this. But it is a small relief to see people protesting.
Where are they being arrested for protesting?
the US for one.
200 Jews for peace arrested in NY Grand Central station, for starters
Wait, Jews were arrested? Doesn't that work against the narrative?
Thank you for that. I will find the story if I can.
Numerous European countries.
Israel does not have the right to cite self-defense as justification for its military operations in Gaza because it is an “occupying power,” Russia’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations Vassily Nebenzia told an emergency special session of the UN General Assembly on Wednesday.
https://www.rt.com/news/586427-israel-no-right-self-defense/
They just want to kill all the Palestinians or move them permanently somewhere else, like the Sinai desert, so the nice Jewish families can have "lebensraum" without "rabid dogs in the house".
Everyone is terrified of being labeled: antisemitic. And then there's the Holocaust thrown in our faces.....It's over, Israel, you're a rotten country full of rotten leaders and a huge % of of your citizens are as complicit as those Germans in WW2. The excuses and lies: 'Oh well, this is a war. so children get bombed...tough shit."
I couldn’t care less about being labeled “anti-Semitic” because I know I’m not, as I am aware of whom the TRUE SEMITES are.
Thank you for the link....Interview w/ Roger Waters.
Of course anti-semitic means anti Jewish. There are good decent Jews in Israel and all over the world but, they can do not much. Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe and others like them have no credibility with the majority (99%) of Israelis. The good guys are not going to win.
Thank you, russian_bot....(that is Some Nerve using a name like that and expecting us to open it,.......Bad idea?) I am going full bore on this .
*And yet none of her reporting highlighted comments made to the Israeli Haaretz newspaper by Tuval Escapa, the kibbutz’s security coordinator. He said Israeli military commanders had ordered the “shelling [of] houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages”.
That echoed the testimony of Yasmin Porat, who sought shelter in Be’eri from the nearby Nova music festival. She told Israeli Radio that once Israeli special forces arrived: “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages because there was very, very heavy crossfire.”*
https://open.substack.com/pub/jonathancook/p/what-the-bbc-fails-to-tell-you-about?r=ej7x0&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
I forget who said it, but some time ago somebody observed that it is easier to control a million people than kill a million people.
That's not true anymore.
No, it is not.
You are qualifying "kill."
Control is ok?