where does hamas only allow the voices of those who blame israel? where does it have that power?
israel is sophisticated enough to know how to put lipstick on a pig (hence the 'warnings')
'the us is so committed to peace that it puts anti-ballistic missiles in poland and rumania'. the entire world has to put up with the threat of nuclear powers annihilating cities without an iron dome. the us is working to get rid of the mad-doctrine. they thought it kinda worked in israel: put up an anti-rocket dome and you don't have to negotiate about anything anymore.
imo, it is pretty obvious that israeli governments and leaders have always wanted to not only 'remove hamas' but genocide the palestinians (including the oppressed women you mentioned). doing their utmost to signal they 'have to'.
'the same thing that led to the current situation' from the perspective of hamas where israel is not 'destroyed' but 'contained', has indeed led to 'mowing the lawn' (you undoubtedly are familiar with that expression).
in its 2017 charter hamas compromised (again) accepting the 1967 borders. 'somehow' this did not gain traction.
plan: ceasefire now, exchange of prisoners (proposed about 4 times by hamas), end of us (military and political) support for israel, negotiations for a viable palistinian state (backed up by bds), 'right to return' for palestinian refugees, end of the apartheid ethno state and settler policy, ...
At least you have an idea. Thank you for putting forth more than just stop bombing.
Firstly, I doubt any country in the world would willingly release prisoners after Hamas tortured and murdered 1300+ innocent people, and took 200+ hostages. If you do that, you essentially confirm that Hamas merely needs to kidnap more people to get what they want. This rewards Hamas' behavior.
Maybe an international review of Palestinian prisoners and an agreement from Israel that this international body can release prisoners they deem to be wrongly imprisoned. No convicted terrorists can be released unless wrongly convicted. On the flip side, we know that the hostages Hamas has are not being held for just cause. What did the babies do? Oh, that's right, their mom was murdered. I guess that's a crime worthy of being imprisoned in Gaza.
The "end of US (military and political) support for Israel" is a death wish for Israel. There is no way Israel would agree to this, and I doubt you'd find enough popular support in the U.S. to achieve this. So I don't think you can realistically include this in an actual plan to achieve peace. Unless you want a major war in the Middle East as soon as Arab countries realize that Israel has no international support.
There have been negotiations for a viable Palestinian State, and you can research what happened. Clinton said that Palestinian leaders said no to everything that was offered. Even when later, the offer included East Jerusalem as the capital, the West Bank, a Land Bridge to Gaza, every single thing for a Two State solution, they said no. The Palestinian leaders want it all, remember? From the river to the sea, which means no Israel.
'Right to return' sounds nice. But realistically, you'd never achieve this. You'd just be asking for Israel to evict Jewish families from their homes, and exchange Palestinian refugees for newly created Jewish refugees . And remember, Jewish people had been evicted from Arab countries after Israel was attacked in 1948, so do you then negotiate getting their homes back in those Arab countries? If so, what happens to the Arabs living in those homes? Where do you put them?
This is an insincere solution. It could never be achieved, and everyone knows it. This just allows everyone to point at Israel as the bad guy and keep the status quo. We need a real solution.
Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, their fellow Arabs preferred they remain refugees instead of doing what Israel did, and accepting Jewish people that were evicted from their homes by Arab countries. How often do we talk about those Jewish refugees? Never. Because they rebuilt.
i think it is kinda sad that you do not value step 1 (just stop bombing) of the plan as much. it's probably one of the things that makes us 'different', for now.
'Firstly': you know of the nakba and everything that has been going on in israel/palestine since 1948 (and probably before). let's project in the other direction. if you condone the ethnic cleansing of a territory in such a way, and continue with unwavering support after that (throughout all the episodes of 'mowing the lawn' and settler expansion, you (i.c. the us) reward israel's behaviour.
i disagree that the hostages hamas has are not being held for just cause. regarding babies, i think it is necessary to provide sources as people might easily assume one is spreading atrocity propaganda.
i do not understand in what way israel would have to agree or disagree with any policy decisions that are made in the us. did bibi mind when the us and eu questioned his judicial reforms or the settler policies? (you probably are familiar with the video of bibi explaining how the us can be 'handled'). 'popular support' for israel in the us is probably entirely manufactured.
maybe palestinians changed their minds about negotiations for a viable palestinian state. let's try again (and maybe start from 1948, when things went awry. from this pov palestinians will seem extremely compromising).
israel is achieving this 'insincere' 'right to return' quasi every day. they raze palestinian homes and evict palestinians from houses in jerusalem and let israeli settlers steal them (you've seen the videos). if israel would actually agree to a palestinian 'right to return' (and keeping in mind settler building frenzy), you'd be amazed how quick israelis who lost their homes supposedly in retaliation to the 1948 nakba would get them back (although i think they are happier in israel now).
it indeed allows everyone to rightfully point at israel as the bad guy, but pointing someone out as the bad guy is not meant to keep the status quo, it is meant to make the bad guy repent and change his ways.
as much as i enjoy these online discussions, i'll have to leave it at this. gotta dash off to the next pro-palestine protest movement meeting.
where does hamas only allow the voices of those who blame israel? where does it have that power?
israel is sophisticated enough to know how to put lipstick on a pig (hence the 'warnings')
'the us is so committed to peace that it puts anti-ballistic missiles in poland and rumania'. the entire world has to put up with the threat of nuclear powers annihilating cities without an iron dome. the us is working to get rid of the mad-doctrine. they thought it kinda worked in israel: put up an anti-rocket dome and you don't have to negotiate about anything anymore.
imo, it is pretty obvious that israeli governments and leaders have always wanted to not only 'remove hamas' but genocide the palestinians (including the oppressed women you mentioned). doing their utmost to signal they 'have to'.
'the same thing that led to the current situation' from the perspective of hamas where israel is not 'destroyed' but 'contained', has indeed led to 'mowing the lawn' (you undoubtedly are familiar with that expression).
in its 2017 charter hamas compromised (again) accepting the 1967 borders. 'somehow' this did not gain traction.
plan: ceasefire now, exchange of prisoners (proposed about 4 times by hamas), end of us (military and political) support for israel, negotiations for a viable palistinian state (backed up by bds), 'right to return' for palestinian refugees, end of the apartheid ethno state and settler policy, ...
At least you have an idea. Thank you for putting forth more than just stop bombing.
Firstly, I doubt any country in the world would willingly release prisoners after Hamas tortured and murdered 1300+ innocent people, and took 200+ hostages. If you do that, you essentially confirm that Hamas merely needs to kidnap more people to get what they want. This rewards Hamas' behavior.
Maybe an international review of Palestinian prisoners and an agreement from Israel that this international body can release prisoners they deem to be wrongly imprisoned. No convicted terrorists can be released unless wrongly convicted. On the flip side, we know that the hostages Hamas has are not being held for just cause. What did the babies do? Oh, that's right, their mom was murdered. I guess that's a crime worthy of being imprisoned in Gaza.
The "end of US (military and political) support for Israel" is a death wish for Israel. There is no way Israel would agree to this, and I doubt you'd find enough popular support in the U.S. to achieve this. So I don't think you can realistically include this in an actual plan to achieve peace. Unless you want a major war in the Middle East as soon as Arab countries realize that Israel has no international support.
There have been negotiations for a viable Palestinian State, and you can research what happened. Clinton said that Palestinian leaders said no to everything that was offered. Even when later, the offer included East Jerusalem as the capital, the West Bank, a Land Bridge to Gaza, every single thing for a Two State solution, they said no. The Palestinian leaders want it all, remember? From the river to the sea, which means no Israel.
'Right to return' sounds nice. But realistically, you'd never achieve this. You'd just be asking for Israel to evict Jewish families from their homes, and exchange Palestinian refugees for newly created Jewish refugees . And remember, Jewish people had been evicted from Arab countries after Israel was attacked in 1948, so do you then negotiate getting their homes back in those Arab countries? If so, what happens to the Arabs living in those homes? Where do you put them?
This is an insincere solution. It could never be achieved, and everyone knows it. This just allows everyone to point at Israel as the bad guy and keep the status quo. We need a real solution.
Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, their fellow Arabs preferred they remain refugees instead of doing what Israel did, and accepting Jewish people that were evicted from their homes by Arab countries. How often do we talk about those Jewish refugees? Never. Because they rebuilt.
i think it is kinda sad that you do not value step 1 (just stop bombing) of the plan as much. it's probably one of the things that makes us 'different', for now.
'Firstly': you know of the nakba and everything that has been going on in israel/palestine since 1948 (and probably before). let's project in the other direction. if you condone the ethnic cleansing of a territory in such a way, and continue with unwavering support after that (throughout all the episodes of 'mowing the lawn' and settler expansion, you (i.c. the us) reward israel's behaviour.
i disagree that the hostages hamas has are not being held for just cause. regarding babies, i think it is necessary to provide sources as people might easily assume one is spreading atrocity propaganda.
i do not understand in what way israel would have to agree or disagree with any policy decisions that are made in the us. did bibi mind when the us and eu questioned his judicial reforms or the settler policies? (you probably are familiar with the video of bibi explaining how the us can be 'handled'). 'popular support' for israel in the us is probably entirely manufactured.
maybe palestinians changed their minds about negotiations for a viable palestinian state. let's try again (and maybe start from 1948, when things went awry. from this pov palestinians will seem extremely compromising).
israel is achieving this 'insincere' 'right to return' quasi every day. they raze palestinian homes and evict palestinians from houses in jerusalem and let israeli settlers steal them (you've seen the videos). if israel would actually agree to a palestinian 'right to return' (and keeping in mind settler building frenzy), you'd be amazed how quick israelis who lost their homes supposedly in retaliation to the 1948 nakba would get them back (although i think they are happier in israel now).
it indeed allows everyone to rightfully point at israel as the bad guy, but pointing someone out as the bad guy is not meant to keep the status quo, it is meant to make the bad guy repent and change his ways.
as much as i enjoy these online discussions, i'll have to leave it at this. gotta dash off to the next pro-palestine protest movement meeting.