Wow, You ust really work to come up with a narrative where the people of Gaa are welcoming being bombed and shot, thousands more dying each few days, with a government that is intent on pushing them out of their homeland for good but it's all fine because the Jews are better for women and gays--for JEWISH women and gays, that is. Palestinian women may be glad to see a relaxing of the sexism of Islam (which varies--whether it's really as you depict it in Gaza, I don't know) but I guarantee that will take a back seat when their entire people are being exterminated, oh excuse me LIBERATED by the Zionists.
See, and isn't that precisely the point? You don't even know how women in Gaza are treated, yet you are sure you understand what is best... When Gazans blame Hamas for starting this current war on Oct 7, they are silenced by Hamas. Hamas only allows the voices of those who blame Israel.
So here is a thought. If Israel wanted to exterminate the residents in Gaza, don't you think they would make sure they were in their homes rather than warning them before they dropped bombs? I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas. If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered the murderers responsible for Oct 7, this would be over TODAY. Hamas could end this conflict. Yet you don't call for Hamas to do anything.
Israel is so committed to peace that they created the Iron Dome to shoot rockets out of the sky. Tell me one other country that puts up with rockets being fired at their cities and, instead of wiping out the terrorists completely, creates a system to shoot down rockets. Any come to mind?
The Iron Dome was invented so they could avoid what they are ultimately having to do anyway: invade Gaza to remove Hamas. Unfortunately, Israel listened to the world when they said they should leave Gaza. They left. That made things worse. Hamas overran Gaza via a brutal and bloody civil war. Then, Israel implemented a blockade to protect themselves from terrorist attacks and an Iron Dome to shoot down rockets. As much as possible, Israel operated in cease-fire mode. Do you remember what happened next? Hamas planned a massive attack to murder innocent people, including mothers, young children, and grandparents.
So what is your solution? Is your plan is to continue the same thing that led to the current situation - leaving Hamas in control of Gaza, where they will plan the next attack? You act as if Israel could open their border with Gaza, and suddenly, Hamas militants would just calmly become good, wholesome fathers who don't put babies in ovens anymore. Think about it. Hamas was formed looooong before Gaza was cordoned off and had a blockade. The goal of Hamas is not a two-state solution; it is the elimination of Israel. Good luck with peace.
So instead, let's just continue the status quo, with terrorists ruling Gaza, so that you can say you were the morally superior person by accusing Israel of war crimes when they respond to terrorist attacks.
How about you offer a solution that brings peace? What is your grand answer to terrorists governing Gaza? How do you stop the violence and give freedom to Palestinians? Since a cease-fire with Hamas is best, what is the plan?
If this was indeed as unprovoked as it seems, it is terrorism pure and simple. It seems the Palestinian was murdered for no other reason than that they were Palestinian. Whoever is responsible, which apparently was an off duty IDF combat soldier, should be charged, tried, and convicted of this for all to see. I hope to see him imprisoned and/or given the death penalty if it applies. I have seen Jewish people living in Israel condemn this, and they understand how dangerous needless violence is. I will be watching to see how the Israeli authorities proceed. I hope they make an example out of this murderer and any others. There is no justification for violence and murder. Hamas does not represent all Palestinian people, and as you pointed out, Hamas is not in control of the West Bank. My prayers to this Palestinian family mourning the loss of their loved one.
How about “prayers” for the many hundreds of Palestinians murdered in the West Bank by the IDF and IsraHelli squatters for the crime of being Palestinian?
You claim to be a “writer” but you are woefully ignorant of the abuse perpetrated against West Bank Palestinians. If you don’t KNOW the facts, you don’t get to have an opinion.
where does hamas only allow the voices of those who blame israel? where does it have that power?
israel is sophisticated enough to know how to put lipstick on a pig (hence the 'warnings')
'the us is so committed to peace that it puts anti-ballistic missiles in poland and rumania'. the entire world has to put up with the threat of nuclear powers annihilating cities without an iron dome. the us is working to get rid of the mad-doctrine. they thought it kinda worked in israel: put up an anti-rocket dome and you don't have to negotiate about anything anymore.
imo, it is pretty obvious that israeli governments and leaders have always wanted to not only 'remove hamas' but genocide the palestinians (including the oppressed women you mentioned). doing their utmost to signal they 'have to'.
'the same thing that led to the current situation' from the perspective of hamas where israel is not 'destroyed' but 'contained', has indeed led to 'mowing the lawn' (you undoubtedly are familiar with that expression).
in its 2017 charter hamas compromised (again) accepting the 1967 borders. 'somehow' this did not gain traction.
plan: ceasefire now, exchange of prisoners (proposed about 4 times by hamas), end of us (military and political) support for israel, negotiations for a viable palistinian state (backed up by bds), 'right to return' for palestinian refugees, end of the apartheid ethno state and settler policy, ...
At least you have an idea. Thank you for putting forth more than just stop bombing.
Firstly, I doubt any country in the world would willingly release prisoners after Hamas tortured and murdered 1300+ innocent people, and took 200+ hostages. If you do that, you essentially confirm that Hamas merely needs to kidnap more people to get what they want. This rewards Hamas' behavior.
Maybe an international review of Palestinian prisoners and an agreement from Israel that this international body can release prisoners they deem to be wrongly imprisoned. No convicted terrorists can be released unless wrongly convicted. On the flip side, we know that the hostages Hamas has are not being held for just cause. What did the babies do? Oh, that's right, their mom was murdered. I guess that's a crime worthy of being imprisoned in Gaza.
The "end of US (military and political) support for Israel" is a death wish for Israel. There is no way Israel would agree to this, and I doubt you'd find enough popular support in the U.S. to achieve this. So I don't think you can realistically include this in an actual plan to achieve peace. Unless you want a major war in the Middle East as soon as Arab countries realize that Israel has no international support.
There have been negotiations for a viable Palestinian State, and you can research what happened. Clinton said that Palestinian leaders said no to everything that was offered. Even when later, the offer included East Jerusalem as the capital, the West Bank, a Land Bridge to Gaza, every single thing for a Two State solution, they said no. The Palestinian leaders want it all, remember? From the river to the sea, which means no Israel.
'Right to return' sounds nice. But realistically, you'd never achieve this. You'd just be asking for Israel to evict Jewish families from their homes, and exchange Palestinian refugees for newly created Jewish refugees . And remember, Jewish people had been evicted from Arab countries after Israel was attacked in 1948, so do you then negotiate getting their homes back in those Arab countries? If so, what happens to the Arabs living in those homes? Where do you put them?
This is an insincere solution. It could never be achieved, and everyone knows it. This just allows everyone to point at Israel as the bad guy and keep the status quo. We need a real solution.
Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, their fellow Arabs preferred they remain refugees instead of doing what Israel did, and accepting Jewish people that were evicted from their homes by Arab countries. How often do we talk about those Jewish refugees? Never. Because they rebuilt.
i think it is kinda sad that you do not value step 1 (just stop bombing) of the plan as much. it's probably one of the things that makes us 'different', for now.
'Firstly': you know of the nakba and everything that has been going on in israel/palestine since 1948 (and probably before). let's project in the other direction. if you condone the ethnic cleansing of a territory in such a way, and continue with unwavering support after that (throughout all the episodes of 'mowing the lawn' and settler expansion, you (i.c. the us) reward israel's behaviour.
i disagree that the hostages hamas has are not being held for just cause. regarding babies, i think it is necessary to provide sources as people might easily assume one is spreading atrocity propaganda.
i do not understand in what way israel would have to agree or disagree with any policy decisions that are made in the us. did bibi mind when the us and eu questioned his judicial reforms or the settler policies? (you probably are familiar with the video of bibi explaining how the us can be 'handled'). 'popular support' for israel in the us is probably entirely manufactured.
maybe palestinians changed their minds about negotiations for a viable palestinian state. let's try again (and maybe start from 1948, when things went awry. from this pov palestinians will seem extremely compromising).
israel is achieving this 'insincere' 'right to return' quasi every day. they raze palestinian homes and evict palestinians from houses in jerusalem and let israeli settlers steal them (you've seen the videos). if israel would actually agree to a palestinian 'right to return' (and keeping in mind settler building frenzy), you'd be amazed how quick israelis who lost their homes supposedly in retaliation to the 1948 nakba would get them back (although i think they are happier in israel now).
it indeed allows everyone to rightfully point at israel as the bad guy, but pointing someone out as the bad guy is not meant to keep the status quo, it is meant to make the bad guy repent and change his ways.
as much as i enjoy these online discussions, i'll have to leave it at this. gotta dash off to the next pro-palestine protest movement meeting.
Thanks for sharing. This is a good thing. There should be investigations and Israel should be held to a high standard. They are after all, nothing like Hamas terrorists that answer to no one.
Hamas are freedom fighters. They won't be eliminated. their numbers will increase now. They kicked Israel's ass, showed them what sissies the Israeli military is....10 hours before the so called military showed up for the party?
Another point: Israel does not care about the hostages/captives....I think half of them aren't even Israeli (11 from Thailand doing field work at below minimum wage) . The way they have been bombing...did they know where the captives are being held? Of course they didn't; now they know they're in a tunnel. So now they are bombing and shooting into tunnels. Those captives won't be going home and it will be blamed on Hamas, which is apparently protecting them from harm.
Israel stepped in poo poo with this violent insane beastly reaction...and for 70 years, behaving to a population like Nazis. The world will NOT forgive.
They showed those 6-year-old children what sissies they were, using guns to defeat all those children playing with their toys. They are so big and brave to attack defenseless mothers, children, and the elderly, murdering families in their beds and even putting a baby in an oven. They showed them, didn't they?
{I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas.}
I don't want to get involved in your argument but you are aware that it has been confirmed that the vast majority of Israel's who perished on October 7th were actually shot and killed by the IDF. My point is you cannot possibly compare the number of people that died on October 7th to the THOUSANDS of people that are currently being murdered daily in Gaza! The fact of the matter is we all know there is so much more to all of this then what is being presented - Israel's security does not fail.
There is such a larger picture at stake here even the experts are not sure about anything! Some say it was deliberate so the US could start a war with Iran! The possibilities right now are innumerable. The other side of that coin is that it's been reported (although I can't find the article or video) the IDF actually wound up killing a large percentage of Israel's on that day.
There's been some really great interviews which back up what you're saying - although they also say Iran will not get involved with this war and did not know about October 7th nor did they plan it. Charlie Rose just did two excellent interviews - which I highly recommend to all
I’ve heard this, saw the original quote, and found no evidence this even remotely true. The interview that started this rumor was about five hostages caught in the crossfire between IDF and Hamas. The man only said that some of them may have been hit by the IDF, but it was only an answer to whether it was possible. It was not a certain fact, even among those five. I have found no other evidence online that indicates the majority of the people that died were killed by the IDF. This seems like a rather ridiculous claim anyways given that we know the brutal nature of Hamas, because they filmed it.
I agree with you but in this case it's true. I too beleive nothing without ironclad evidence but the article I was reading stated unequivocally it was true - they listed 4 prominent people that verified it. One MAY HAVE actually been Joe Biden but the others were very prominent. Please forgive me for not supplying the article as I spend my life reading and now I can't recall where I read it! I don't own a TV and only read reputable sources. But I remember thinking, now we know it is true! I don't know if one of them may have also been Colonel Macgregor. There was also an Israel woman that was interviewed elsewhere - she too I beleive was at the concert. In fact maybe that's how the story came to fruition. They asked them to verify it! And the irony is if you try and Google it of course nothing comes back hence the further probability. According to everything I read the order came down to shoot and kill everyone in order to stop Hamas.
On an unrelated note, if you want a search engine better than Google that doesn't manipulate your searches, censor results, track your activity, or try to force "relevant" ads on you, check out https://kagi.com. It is a paid search engine, but you can get 100 free searches when you sign up without a Credit Card. Test it out. I can never go back to Google now. Unlimited searches are $10/month if you end up liking it.
I just tried searching my read emails and still can't find it. When and if I do find it I'll re-post it! I'm wondering if it may've been an interview. It could be Charlie Rose. I'm going to rewatch his interview with Dr. Abbas Milani
None of these were where I initially read it but at least it's the same - the IDF was responsible for many of the deaths on October 7th. One of the articles I read stated they actually killed more than Hamas did.
A separate report published in Haaretz noted that the Israeli military was “compelled to request an aerial strike” against its own facility inside the Erez Crossing to Gaza in order to repulse Hamas fighters who had seized control. That base was filled with Israeli Civil Administration officers and soldiers at the time.
These reports indicate that orders came down from the military’s high command to attack homes and other areas inside Israel, even at the cost of many Israeli lives.
An Israeli woman named Yasmin Porat confirmed in an interview with Israel Radio that the military “undoubtedly” killed numerous Israeli noncombatants during gun battles with Hamas militants on October 7. “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she stated, referring to Israeli special forces.
As David Sheen and Ali Abunimah reported in Electronic Intifada, Porat described “very, very heavy crossfire” and Israeli tank shelling, which led to many casualties among Israelis.
While being held by the Hamas gunmen, Porat recalled, “They did not abuse us. We were treated very humanely… No one treated us violently.”
She added, “The objective was to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.”
According to Haaretz, the army was only able to restore control over Be’eri after admittedly “shelling” the homes of Israelis who had been taken captive.
“The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri residents were killed,” the paper chronicled. “Others were kidnapped. Eleven days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
Much of the shelling in Be’eri was carried out by Israeli tank crews. As a reporter for the Israeli Foreign Ministry-sponsored outlet i24 noted during a visit to Be’eri, “small and quaint homes [were] bombarded or destroyed,” and “well-maintained lawns [were] ripped up by the tracks of an armored vehicle, perhaps a tank.”
Apache attack helicopters also figured heavily in the Israeli military’s response on October 7. Pilots have told Israeli media they scrambled to the battlefield without any intelligence, unable to differentiate between Hamas fighters and Israeli noncombatants, and yet determined to “empty the belly” of their war machines. “I find myself in a dilemma as to what to shoot at, because there are so many of them,” one Apache pilot commented.
Video filmed by Hamas gunmen makes it clear they intentionally shot many Israelis with Kalashnikov rifles on October 7. However, the Israeli government has not been content to rely on verified video evidence.
Instead, it continues to push discredited claims of “beheaded babies” while distributing photographs of “bodies burned beyond recognition” to insist that gunmen sadistically immolated their captives, and even raped some before torching them alive.
The objective behind Tel Aviv’s atrocity exhibition is clear: to paint Hamas as “worse than ISIS” while cultivating support for the Israeli army’s ongoing bombardment of the Gaza Strip, which has left over 7000 dead, including at least 2500 children. While hundreds of wounded children in Gaza have been treated for what a surgeon described as “fourth degree burns” caused by novel weapons, the Western media’s focus remains trained on Israeli citizens claiming they were “burned alive” on October 7.
Yet the mounting evidence of friendly fire orders handed down by Israeli army commanders strongly suggests that at least some of the most jarring images of charred Israeli corpses, Israeli homes reduced to rubble and burned out hulks of vehicles presented to Western media were, in fact, the handiwork of tank crews and helicopter pilots blanketing Israeli territory with shells, cannon fire and Hellfire missiles.
Indeed, it appears that on October 7, Israel’s military resorted to the same tactics it has employed against civilians in Gaza, driving up the death toll of its own citizens with the indiscriminate use of heavy weapons.
I find it incredulous because the IDF was absent for hours after the attack began. Small bands of soldiers drove down to fight Hamas as they heard the news, but the more significant military response came much later. Many of the first responders were looking for their own families, yet another reason I do not believe they were firing indiscriminately into crowds. I think that some innocent Israelis were likely caught in the crossfire by the end of it all. Some of the witness testimony I have read indicates this to be the case, likely the rumor's origin.
There is no way the IDF was commanded to shoot so many civilians that it outnumbered the Hamas' total victims. Something that far-fetched would require ironclad evidence, and the big news companies would eat that up all day for the ratings. You can't find it because it doesn't exist. What you read was likely fabricated unless you saw those words coming out of Biden's mouth. And if you can understand Biden's speech, it is probably an AI version of Biden anyway ;-)
Wow, You ust really work to come up with a narrative where the people of Gaa are welcoming being bombed and shot, thousands more dying each few days, with a government that is intent on pushing them out of their homeland for good but it's all fine because the Jews are better for women and gays--for JEWISH women and gays, that is. Palestinian women may be glad to see a relaxing of the sexism of Islam (which varies--whether it's really as you depict it in Gaza, I don't know) but I guarantee that will take a back seat when their entire people are being exterminated, oh excuse me LIBERATED by the Zionists.
See, and isn't that precisely the point? You don't even know how women in Gaza are treated, yet you are sure you understand what is best... When Gazans blame Hamas for starting this current war on Oct 7, they are silenced by Hamas. Hamas only allows the voices of those who blame Israel.
So here is a thought. If Israel wanted to exterminate the residents in Gaza, don't you think they would make sure they were in their homes rather than warning them before they dropped bombs? I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas. If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered the murderers responsible for Oct 7, this would be over TODAY. Hamas could end this conflict. Yet you don't call for Hamas to do anything.
Israel is so committed to peace that they created the Iron Dome to shoot rockets out of the sky. Tell me one other country that puts up with rockets being fired at their cities and, instead of wiping out the terrorists completely, creates a system to shoot down rockets. Any come to mind?
The Iron Dome was invented so they could avoid what they are ultimately having to do anyway: invade Gaza to remove Hamas. Unfortunately, Israel listened to the world when they said they should leave Gaza. They left. That made things worse. Hamas overran Gaza via a brutal and bloody civil war. Then, Israel implemented a blockade to protect themselves from terrorist attacks and an Iron Dome to shoot down rockets. As much as possible, Israel operated in cease-fire mode. Do you remember what happened next? Hamas planned a massive attack to murder innocent people, including mothers, young children, and grandparents.
So what is your solution? Is your plan is to continue the same thing that led to the current situation - leaving Hamas in control of Gaza, where they will plan the next attack? You act as if Israel could open their border with Gaza, and suddenly, Hamas militants would just calmly become good, wholesome fathers who don't put babies in ovens anymore. Think about it. Hamas was formed looooong before Gaza was cordoned off and had a blockade. The goal of Hamas is not a two-state solution; it is the elimination of Israel. Good luck with peace.
So instead, let's just continue the status quo, with terrorists ruling Gaza, so that you can say you were the morally superior person by accusing Israel of war crimes when they respond to terrorist attacks.
How about you offer a solution that brings peace? What is your grand answer to terrorists governing Gaza? How do you stop the violence and give freedom to Palestinians? Since a cease-fire with Hamas is best, what is the plan?
😂😂 😂
Now TELL me, just who IS IT that’s “depriving the Palestinians of their freedom”?
A Palestinian can’t even harvest his olives without being shot dead by squatters—and Hamas has no sway in the West Bank!
Go peddle your nonsense elsewhere.
If this was indeed as unprovoked as it seems, it is terrorism pure and simple. It seems the Palestinian was murdered for no other reason than that they were Palestinian. Whoever is responsible, which apparently was an off duty IDF combat soldier, should be charged, tried, and convicted of this for all to see. I hope to see him imprisoned and/or given the death penalty if it applies. I have seen Jewish people living in Israel condemn this, and they understand how dangerous needless violence is. I will be watching to see how the Israeli authorities proceed. I hope they make an example out of this murderer and any others. There is no justification for violence and murder. Hamas does not represent all Palestinian people, and as you pointed out, Hamas is not in control of the West Bank. My prayers to this Palestinian family mourning the loss of their loved one.
Boy, Israel sure rushed to punish the IDF daylight murder of Shireen aAbu Akleh, right?
O crap..
And Rachel Corrie…
the off duty idf combat soldier will be pardoned. i've seen more blatant cases of murder where they did.
How about “prayers” for the many hundreds of Palestinians murdered in the West Bank by the IDF and IsraHelli squatters for the crime of being Palestinian?
You claim to be a “writer” but you are woefully ignorant of the abuse perpetrated against West Bank Palestinians. If you don’t KNOW the facts, you don’t get to have an opinion.
Not a FUCKING CHANCE IN HELL, pal.
where does hamas only allow the voices of those who blame israel? where does it have that power?
israel is sophisticated enough to know how to put lipstick on a pig (hence the 'warnings')
'the us is so committed to peace that it puts anti-ballistic missiles in poland and rumania'. the entire world has to put up with the threat of nuclear powers annihilating cities without an iron dome. the us is working to get rid of the mad-doctrine. they thought it kinda worked in israel: put up an anti-rocket dome and you don't have to negotiate about anything anymore.
imo, it is pretty obvious that israeli governments and leaders have always wanted to not only 'remove hamas' but genocide the palestinians (including the oppressed women you mentioned). doing their utmost to signal they 'have to'.
'the same thing that led to the current situation' from the perspective of hamas where israel is not 'destroyed' but 'contained', has indeed led to 'mowing the lawn' (you undoubtedly are familiar with that expression).
in its 2017 charter hamas compromised (again) accepting the 1967 borders. 'somehow' this did not gain traction.
plan: ceasefire now, exchange of prisoners (proposed about 4 times by hamas), end of us (military and political) support for israel, negotiations for a viable palistinian state (backed up by bds), 'right to return' for palestinian refugees, end of the apartheid ethno state and settler policy, ...
At least you have an idea. Thank you for putting forth more than just stop bombing.
Firstly, I doubt any country in the world would willingly release prisoners after Hamas tortured and murdered 1300+ innocent people, and took 200+ hostages. If you do that, you essentially confirm that Hamas merely needs to kidnap more people to get what they want. This rewards Hamas' behavior.
Maybe an international review of Palestinian prisoners and an agreement from Israel that this international body can release prisoners they deem to be wrongly imprisoned. No convicted terrorists can be released unless wrongly convicted. On the flip side, we know that the hostages Hamas has are not being held for just cause. What did the babies do? Oh, that's right, their mom was murdered. I guess that's a crime worthy of being imprisoned in Gaza.
The "end of US (military and political) support for Israel" is a death wish for Israel. There is no way Israel would agree to this, and I doubt you'd find enough popular support in the U.S. to achieve this. So I don't think you can realistically include this in an actual plan to achieve peace. Unless you want a major war in the Middle East as soon as Arab countries realize that Israel has no international support.
There have been negotiations for a viable Palestinian State, and you can research what happened. Clinton said that Palestinian leaders said no to everything that was offered. Even when later, the offer included East Jerusalem as the capital, the West Bank, a Land Bridge to Gaza, every single thing for a Two State solution, they said no. The Palestinian leaders want it all, remember? From the river to the sea, which means no Israel.
'Right to return' sounds nice. But realistically, you'd never achieve this. You'd just be asking for Israel to evict Jewish families from their homes, and exchange Palestinian refugees for newly created Jewish refugees . And remember, Jewish people had been evicted from Arab countries after Israel was attacked in 1948, so do you then negotiate getting their homes back in those Arab countries? If so, what happens to the Arabs living in those homes? Where do you put them?
This is an insincere solution. It could never be achieved, and everyone knows it. This just allows everyone to point at Israel as the bad guy and keep the status quo. We need a real solution.
Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, their fellow Arabs preferred they remain refugees instead of doing what Israel did, and accepting Jewish people that were evicted from their homes by Arab countries. How often do we talk about those Jewish refugees? Never. Because they rebuilt.
i think it is kinda sad that you do not value step 1 (just stop bombing) of the plan as much. it's probably one of the things that makes us 'different', for now.
'Firstly': you know of the nakba and everything that has been going on in israel/palestine since 1948 (and probably before). let's project in the other direction. if you condone the ethnic cleansing of a territory in such a way, and continue with unwavering support after that (throughout all the episodes of 'mowing the lawn' and settler expansion, you (i.c. the us) reward israel's behaviour.
i disagree that the hostages hamas has are not being held for just cause. regarding babies, i think it is necessary to provide sources as people might easily assume one is spreading atrocity propaganda.
i do not understand in what way israel would have to agree or disagree with any policy decisions that are made in the us. did bibi mind when the us and eu questioned his judicial reforms or the settler policies? (you probably are familiar with the video of bibi explaining how the us can be 'handled'). 'popular support' for israel in the us is probably entirely manufactured.
maybe palestinians changed their minds about negotiations for a viable palestinian state. let's try again (and maybe start from 1948, when things went awry. from this pov palestinians will seem extremely compromising).
israel is achieving this 'insincere' 'right to return' quasi every day. they raze palestinian homes and evict palestinians from houses in jerusalem and let israeli settlers steal them (you've seen the videos). if israel would actually agree to a palestinian 'right to return' (and keeping in mind settler building frenzy), you'd be amazed how quick israelis who lost their homes supposedly in retaliation to the 1948 nakba would get them back (although i think they are happier in israel now).
it indeed allows everyone to rightfully point at israel as the bad guy, but pointing someone out as the bad guy is not meant to keep the status quo, it is meant to make the bad guy repent and change his ways.
as much as i enjoy these online discussions, i'll have to leave it at this. gotta dash off to the next pro-palestine protest movement meeting.
US asks Israel for ‘explanation’ of strike on Gaza refugee camp
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-explanation-of-some-airstrikes-in-gaza-00125294
Thanks for sharing. This is a good thing. There should be investigations and Israel should be held to a high standard. They are after all, nothing like Hamas terrorists that answer to no one.
Hamas are freedom fighters. They won't be eliminated. their numbers will increase now. They kicked Israel's ass, showed them what sissies the Israeli military is....10 hours before the so called military showed up for the party?
Another point: Israel does not care about the hostages/captives....I think half of them aren't even Israeli (11 from Thailand doing field work at below minimum wage) . The way they have been bombing...did they know where the captives are being held? Of course they didn't; now they know they're in a tunnel. So now they are bombing and shooting into tunnels. Those captives won't be going home and it will be blamed on Hamas, which is apparently protecting them from harm.
Israel stepped in poo poo with this violent insane beastly reaction...and for 70 years, behaving to a population like Nazis. The world will NOT forgive.
They showed those 6-year-old children what sissies they were, using guns to defeat all those children playing with their toys. They are so big and brave to attack defenseless mothers, children, and the elderly, murdering families in their beds and even putting a baby in an oven. They showed them, didn't they?
{I don't remember Hamas warning Jewish people before they came in and slaughtered them one by one. Israel merely wants to put an end to Hamas.}
I don't want to get involved in your argument but you are aware that it has been confirmed that the vast majority of Israel's who perished on October 7th were actually shot and killed by the IDF. My point is you cannot possibly compare the number of people that died on October 7th to the THOUSANDS of people that are currently being murdered daily in Gaza! The fact of the matter is we all know there is so much more to all of this then what is being presented - Israel's security does not fail.
As I keep repeating:
Hamas has worked WITH Israel twice.
Israel were warned by Egypt and Jordan that this was coming.
Since Israel is so well armed why were Hamas not stopped?
There is such a larger picture at stake here even the experts are not sure about anything! Some say it was deliberate so the US could start a war with Iran! The possibilities right now are innumerable. The other side of that coin is that it's been reported (although I can't find the article or video) the IDF actually wound up killing a large percentage of Israel's on that day.
Please everyone stop using acronyms. It does not help people to understand. I believe this is a ploy by Govt. to misdirect us.
Spell the words out.
The whole world is NOT American.
YES. I do believe this concerning Iran.
One thing the Americans don't know about Iran is:
They are well educated. They know their History.
I expect Biden to announce war against Iran any day.
The Persian people were scholars/artists/thinkers.
33BC
There's been some really great interviews which back up what you're saying - although they also say Iran will not get involved with this war and did not know about October 7th nor did they plan it. Charlie Rose just did two excellent interviews - which I highly recommend to all
https://charlierose.substack.com/p/dr-abbas-milani?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=348871&post_id=138501938&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=n3tj&utm_medium=email
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https://charlierose.substack.com/p/ehud-barak?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=348871&post_id=138527207&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=n3tj&utm_medium=email
I’ve heard this, saw the original quote, and found no evidence this even remotely true. The interview that started this rumor was about five hostages caught in the crossfire between IDF and Hamas. The man only said that some of them may have been hit by the IDF, but it was only an answer to whether it was possible. It was not a certain fact, even among those five. I have found no other evidence online that indicates the majority of the people that died were killed by the IDF. This seems like a rather ridiculous claim anyways given that we know the brutal nature of Hamas, because they filmed it.
I agree with you but in this case it's true. I too beleive nothing without ironclad evidence but the article I was reading stated unequivocally it was true - they listed 4 prominent people that verified it. One MAY HAVE actually been Joe Biden but the others were very prominent. Please forgive me for not supplying the article as I spend my life reading and now I can't recall where I read it! I don't own a TV and only read reputable sources. But I remember thinking, now we know it is true! I don't know if one of them may have also been Colonel Macgregor. There was also an Israel woman that was interviewed elsewhere - she too I beleive was at the concert. In fact maybe that's how the story came to fruition. They asked them to verify it! And the irony is if you try and Google it of course nothing comes back hence the further probability. According to everything I read the order came down to shoot and kill everyone in order to stop Hamas.
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I just tried searching my read emails and still can't find it. When and if I do find it I'll re-post it! I'm wondering if it may've been an interview. It could be Charlie Rose. I'm going to rewatch his interview with Dr. Abbas Milani
None of these were where I initially read it but at least it's the same - the IDF was responsible for many of the deaths on October 7th. One of the articles I read stated they actually killed more than Hamas did.
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/11/06/what-we-are-not-hearing-about-oct-7/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=042c68ce-968a-4839-8aac-5480237c5aa5
Remember I told you there was a woman that gave an interview?
https://sana.sy/en/?p=319235
A separate report published in Haaretz noted that the Israeli military was “compelled to request an aerial strike” against its own facility inside the Erez Crossing to Gaza in order to repulse Hamas fighters who had seized control. That base was filled with Israeli Civil Administration officers and soldiers at the time.
These reports indicate that orders came down from the military’s high command to attack homes and other areas inside Israel, even at the cost of many Israeli lives.
An Israeli woman named Yasmin Porat confirmed in an interview with Israel Radio that the military “undoubtedly” killed numerous Israeli noncombatants during gun battles with Hamas militants on October 7. “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she stated, referring to Israeli special forces.
As David Sheen and Ali Abunimah reported in Electronic Intifada, Porat described “very, very heavy crossfire” and Israeli tank shelling, which led to many casualties among Israelis.
While being held by the Hamas gunmen, Porat recalled, “They did not abuse us. We were treated very humanely… No one treated us violently.”
She added, “The objective was to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.”
According to Haaretz, the army was only able to restore control over Be’eri after admittedly “shelling” the homes of Israelis who had been taken captive.
“The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri residents were killed,” the paper chronicled. “Others were kidnapped. Eleven days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
Much of the shelling in Be’eri was carried out by Israeli tank crews. As a reporter for the Israeli Foreign Ministry-sponsored outlet i24 noted during a visit to Be’eri, “small and quaint homes [were] bombarded or destroyed,” and “well-maintained lawns [were] ripped up by the tracks of an armored vehicle, perhaps a tank.”
Apache attack helicopters also figured heavily in the Israeli military’s response on October 7. Pilots have told Israeli media they scrambled to the battlefield without any intelligence, unable to differentiate between Hamas fighters and Israeli noncombatants, and yet determined to “empty the belly” of their war machines. “I find myself in a dilemma as to what to shoot at, because there are so many of them,” one Apache pilot commented.
Video filmed by Hamas gunmen makes it clear they intentionally shot many Israelis with Kalashnikov rifles on October 7. However, the Israeli government has not been content to rely on verified video evidence.
Instead, it continues to push discredited claims of “beheaded babies” while distributing photographs of “bodies burned beyond recognition” to insist that gunmen sadistically immolated their captives, and even raped some before torching them alive.
The objective behind Tel Aviv’s atrocity exhibition is clear: to paint Hamas as “worse than ISIS” while cultivating support for the Israeli army’s ongoing bombardment of the Gaza Strip, which has left over 7000 dead, including at least 2500 children. While hundreds of wounded children in Gaza have been treated for what a surgeon described as “fourth degree burns” caused by novel weapons, the Western media’s focus remains trained on Israeli citizens claiming they were “burned alive” on October 7.
Yet the mounting evidence of friendly fire orders handed down by Israeli army commanders strongly suggests that at least some of the most jarring images of charred Israeli corpses, Israeli homes reduced to rubble and burned out hulks of vehicles presented to Western media were, in fact, the handiwork of tank crews and helicopter pilots blanketing Israeli territory with shells, cannon fire and Hellfire missiles.
Indeed, it appears that on October 7, Israel’s military resorted to the same tactics it has employed against civilians in Gaza, driving up the death toll of its own citizens with the indiscriminate use of heavy weapons.
This is not where I read it - in fact I'm thinking it may've been an interview with Col Macgregor but nonetheless - at least you can see it.
https://middleeastobserver.org/2023/10/29/new-evidence-that-idf-shelled-israeli-citizens-on-oct-7-killing-over-a-hundred/
I find it incredulous because the IDF was absent for hours after the attack began. Small bands of soldiers drove down to fight Hamas as they heard the news, but the more significant military response came much later. Many of the first responders were looking for their own families, yet another reason I do not believe they were firing indiscriminately into crowds. I think that some innocent Israelis were likely caught in the crossfire by the end of it all. Some of the witness testimony I have read indicates this to be the case, likely the rumor's origin.
There is no way the IDF was commanded to shoot so many civilians that it outnumbered the Hamas' total victims. Something that far-fetched would require ironclad evidence, and the big news companies would eat that up all day for the ratings. You can't find it because it doesn't exist. What you read was likely fabricated unless you saw those words coming out of Biden's mouth. And if you can understand Biden's speech, it is probably an AI version of Biden anyway ;-)