There's a great novel from Ben Elton called 'Two Brothers' which is about exactly that. Elton describes how freedoms are lost little by little. Small thin salami slices, until there's no salami left. And then it's too late.
I have asked myself that very question. I am frightened by my answer. When Genocide becomes normal to the masses, they dream of their next phone to replace the phone they just purchased last month. I think to myself, were there courts in germany, u.k., france and the u.s. pretending to care about human rights at the time, just long enough to complete the final solution they all wanted. The u.n. will forever be lowercase to me.
Genocides of various scales have been going on for decades, most if not all perpetrated and/or supported by the empire; and I came to the realization long ago wondering about Germany of the period in question. In my visits to Germany, sampling beer and bratwurst was the lowest priority. At the top was visiting sites related to the period, observing Germans, trying to understand.
And I'll repeat once more - yes, Hamas can be blamed for sacrificing tens of thousands - and likely more to come (the US just vetoed another ceasefire resolution) - of fellow Palestinians, but the resonance and reaction of the world to that ongoing genocide can be seen as unprecedented. In this context, all these innocent Palestinians are to be counted as soldiers having fought and lost their lives for their homeland. The result quite possibly will be wiping off that Nazi sewer structure called the state of israel. At last and long overdue.
Oh, definitely. Just look up what Julian Huxley said in his Unesco talk in 1946, it's on page 21 in the document and can be accessed at Unesco's own website:
Never been into any one religion and I guess I’m only moderately spiritual. However it occurred to me recently that from a spiritual perspective they seem to be after our “Free Will.” That’s quite possibly the most important gift given to us by our God. This is what they covet IMO.
I agree. One of the things I hold onto is my spiritual side. And I get that from nature, plant and animals, and I try to hold onto what I know we have in us. I do think they actively try to get us to forget or ignore that side of us, the side that knows right from wrong, like we all did as children.
No, they don't really care about our or anyone else's "free will". They care about money and power - and whatever they have to do in pursuit of attaining those objectives. Any impact to anyone else's "free will" is collateral damage - a secondary consequence of the destructive effects of pursuing "unhinged capitalism" in the pursuit of "social status, money, & power".
Can you give me a single reason as to why the "power elite" would even care about being after anyone's "free will"? (and note that "free will" is a somewhat nebulous concept with no agreed upon definition).
Seems 2 me the more the 0.01% can train & manipulate the attention of the rest of us the more they steal that attention and our control of that free self directed time. Then comes the squeezing of the stone and the plucking of the pigeons.
I think that was his point. That 'they' not only do not value other people's 'free will', but actively seek to reduce and circumvent it.
Caitlin's point goes deeper, how they do this, and why.
As to 'free will', nebulous it might be, but it's an almost objective statement to say that YOU have more free will to spend your day today, than the Ukrainian conscripts with the Azov battalion behind them, and the Russian artillery ahead do.
It may not be a constant, but it can still be measured to some degree.
Although perhaps it won't be that long until the "code" is telling us to sign up to die in Eastern Europe.
>>"I think that was his point. That 'they' not only do not value other people's 'free will', but actively seek to reduce and circumvent it."
I think you misunderstood my comment. What I'm saying is - "the concept of free will itself" is irrelevant to the objectives and motivations of the "power elite". To them, it doesn't matter if something called "free will" exists or not - either for themselves or anyone else. "free will" is not even on their radar. Hence, they have no need to "seek to reduce and circumvent it".
People on the receiving end of the actions and behavior of the "power elite" perceive the consequences (loss of power and control and agency over their own decisions) as "loss of free will". But just because people perceive this loss doesn't mean there is "any concerted plan" to steal people's "free will". Like I said before it is a "side effect" of pursuing power, and not any conscious or unconscious objective to go after people's "free will".
>>"Caitlin's point goes deeper, how they do this, and why."
Maybe you have a different interpretation of Caitlin's post than I do. The "caged bird" is "sometimes" necessary (for the power elite) in order for them to achieve their objectives. They don't cage birds for the fun of caging birds (i.e. people's free will is not an explicit target or objective) As Caitlin says, not all birds need to be caged - only the ones that still think they can fly do (from the perspective of the power elite).
Going further - one interpretation of Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" is that "free will" is an illusion. (This is also present in the writings of David Hume, Baruch Spinoza, Arthur Schopenhauer, and others).
Baruch Spinoza: "Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined."
David Hume: discussed the possibility that the entire debate about free will is nothing more than a merely "verbal" issue. He suggested that it might be accounted for by "a false sensation or seeming experience" (a velleity), which is associated with many of our actions when we perform them. On reflection, we realize that they were necessary and determined all along.
At this point, this argument could easily derail into a philosophical discussion of "what is free will" and "does it really exist". I do not wish to go in that direction. Hence, I consider it unproductive to argue for or against people's interpretation of "free will" (re: your example in the Ukrainian context or your statement "It may not be a constant, but it can still be measured to some degree").
Thank you for your considered response. I am aware of many of the arguments regarding free will/destination.
I personally do not agree with the philosophical basis that the ultra-determinists use.
Inevitably, naturally, our 'free will's are bounded. Both by natural and social elements (our genes do not let us fly in gravity environments by flapping our arms, and our previous cultural exeriences will bound the possibilities our minds can think of).
This I accept, and wonder how ultra-free will advocates can miss these obvious facts.
But applying the same strictures to Destination, it is also OBVIOUS that we CAN make choices. Those poor infantrymen have the choice of certain suicide atacking the positions covered by artillery, certain suicide retreating back into the Azov Nazis machine guns, or a decent chance of living by surrendering to the Russian forces. Those are very real choices that they can make.
Again, we can agree that their previous conditioning will certainly AFFECT those choices that they make. We can see clearly that the large majority choose the artillery option - and die, not least because of the non-stopp social propaganda that everyone is subjected to, but especially at the spear-point of the American Empire.
Nonetheless, those infantrypeople - women are there now as well - do have potential choices they CAN make.
This is by definition a form of free will.
As to why the ruling classes see an expression of free will in those they consider subordinates to be a negative, once again consider those choices. How long would the power structures last, the Ukrainian regime and the American regime, or the Global Corporate regime, if the People simply refused their "orders" - and say the infantrypeople surrendered en masse? The aim to reduce 'free thinking', and be extension free will, is common to self-defined 'elites'. Saying "We don't have one to lose anyway", while philosophically arguable, is simply a boon to those who use us as slaves and cannon-fodder in their games and schemes.
And they are wrong.
Our human free will is precious, ask Julian Assange who used his wisely, and now has less than us because he is in "Britain's Gitmo" in solitary confinement before transportation to a death cell in the USA.
Could he have behaved differently? Of course he could. Does that mean he had FULL "free will"? Of course not. He was bounded by genes, and by a socialisation that may have lead him to be 'heroic'. And nor, even though it somewhat undermines my 'argument', would I rule out futher constrictions upon 'free will'. Astrology, perhaps. Microbiology, effects of diet. There are many influences upon our "Will".
Do they "control" us to the extent we have as much 'free will' as the spore-driven ant who climbs up as high as possible to help the spore propagate, killing itself in the process? Sometimes, perhaps. Perhaps too the ant makes choices on the path up the tree. It has limited free will, and yet it still would have free will *to some extent* under those circumstances.
I find, as so often with these philosophical debates, that the fence-sitting position, choosing neither one side nor the other, that Reality sits between them.
We have free will, but it is bounded and limited. We have destination, but it is bounded and limited. Neither of the ultra- options is entirely correct.
Much like Nature and Nurture, we have both.
The goal of any abusive relationship is to reduce the free will of the victims(s), which indicates there IS a free will there to begin with.
Like animals in zoos, we know what we are lacking when we are lacking it, even if we don't even have words for it.
I understand what you are trying to convey - but I don't agree or interpret "free will" as you do. As I said before, I believe arguing about "what is free will" and "how should free will be interpreted" and "what does this all mean" is a never-ending debate and has an extensive presence in the history and literature of philosophical thought - I don't think we'll get anywhere trying to debate such a topic from our own perspectives.
Those who made it into 'the history and literature of philosophical thought' were not superhuman, had to start somewhere too and to keep on thinking in spite of their meager initial achievements :)
I don't mean that here and now is the very best time/place to discuss the issue of free will though.
They can’t get enough people to sign up for military duty so they can’t go around starting wars that make bank for them. So they are thinking of re-instituting the draft, to take away the free will/ choice of target (literally) group. That’s a single reason.
The objective is "to win a war" - not take away people's free will". The perceived loss of "free will" is a consequence of wanting to achieve the primary objective - that of winning the war.
They are NOT going to war to take away people's "free will". The loss/reduction in people's "free will" is a corollary - a natural consequence or result - in the pursuit of the primary objective.
Nice theory but you haven’t been paying attention—the reality is that the US doesn’t care if it wins or not. It can always spin a lose and withdraw, as we have in our last 5 wars. What we really want is to make money, and wars are incredibly lucrative. And most of the citizenry joins in that endeavor not because some big bad daddy puts us in shackles and burned hung and tortured us into submission, but because we think we can share in the war economy’s largesse and pay for our houses with money earned in that bombing of others’ houses. . The blindness to that equation is optional.
Jeano - you are digressing from the current thread - which is a discussion on "explicit intentions to steal/reduce poeple's free will".
Wars (as you talk about in the above comment) is a completely different point of discussion.
>>"the reality is that the US doesn’t care if it wins or not."
The primary purpose of war (from the perspective of the power elite AND capitalists) is to wage any conflict (or sow any division) that increases profit, increases accumulation of resources and wealth, increases power and control, and ultimately increases perceived social status. This representation of war is manifested in many ways - imperialism, colonialism, debt diplomacy, regime-change operations, forced austerity imposed on nations, sanctions, holding nations hostage through financial and trade arrangements/blackmail/repercussions, etc.
"Winning a war" (according to the power elites) is defined differently and means different things to them than to "the common man on the street" (or plebians like us).
>>"but because we think we can share in the war economy’s largesse and pay for our houses"
Yes, I agree - anyone that thinks that wars are fought on behalf of (or to even remotely benefit) "the common man" has been thoroughly brainwashed and propagandized.
Actually, it’s not a digression, it’s an expansion. All you want to do is limit thought and discussion and then repeat your point of view as if it was gospel. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
As I stated, this is on a spiritual level. This is usually based on faith not fact. That is the nature of the topic. There’s not much I can say to convince you. You either feel it, or you don’t.
Luke, I understand what you are saying. The problem I have is that - if we start interpreting the world, the behavior of humans, the dynamics of how the world works, etc. on the basis of "people's spiritual theories, beliefs or interpretations", then one can say almost anything and justify anything (and sometimes get away with anything - as evidenced by the plethora of frauds and conmen masquerading as spiritual gurus). In this scenario, what is the basis for evaluating the "truthfulness or falseness" of anything?
To expand on what I mean above: I can state principles, observations, theories, etc. on the basis of scientific evidence, experimentation, and scientific methods of research and study. But then someone else can come along and say that "from a spiritual level/understanding, everything I say is wrong." So what would be the common ground or basis for argumentation and reasoning for resolving such differences or coming to any mutually acceptable understandings?
Debating Nuns : ) Yes I did, topic Free Will. Nuns, basically, without Free Will there is no evil only fact. My claim, We have NO true Free Will based on our DNA. That was a fun day in the convent. Not sure they thought about asking me back ha. Strange though, the science teachers fell silent. The religious teachers wanted to slap me with a ruler, South Side Chicago.
Most people trade free will for a sens of security,,,and the rulers use that fear of lack of security to brain wash them into servile compliance so they feel safe in the cage ... the cage is said to be for your own good.. Its gilded and couched and 100 channels of escapism... order in ! veg out,, became brain dead by the blue glow of the TV one way lie machines and worship at its altar. And for gods sake man whip that Cheetos dust off your chest!!
{..free will...} "That's over" according to Juval Noah Harari, Klaus Schwab's Israeli, gay Zionist main advisor. " Humans are hackable animals" is another of his infamous quotes. Specially the Gentile's !!!
I love that you write that from the username Luke : )
I once had a debate with 10 Nuns, about Free Will , yes I was that dumb. They said we have to have free will or there is no evil only fact, at least that's what I took from their religious argument. I said, We have no Free Will, we only have our DNA which guides a select few choices for us. The science teaching Nuns, stopped speaking and silence. That was a day.
Dumbing down the population, immersing it in ultimately devoid of any substance, but necessarily emotional struggles, and on and on - it's all to distract a person from what they have by definition - free will you refer to.
Lots of so called atheists totally miss the notion and start confusing it with some sort of physical restrictions imposed on people by society as proof of absence of such. Or some other nonsense they wiggle to invent. However, every person has it by definition. Whether they use it or not - that's the ultimate concern for the ruling structures.
Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein. (None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.)
"so they can’t just come out and start imprisoning everyone who spotlights the myriad ways we are enslaved by lies and propaganda" Sure they can, and do. How many of us look close at child porn convictions or do we just assume anyone convicted is a filthy sex criminal and deserves what they get? How many prisons are we blockading for being full of potheads and the mentally ill, or the merely poor? You've got it backwards. They imprison who they like, anyone remotely a threat. We're only free because we're impotent to stop them. The SECOND you say something real, you're instantly a criminal. Criminal conspiracy, incitement, "threatening", "terrorism", you name it. There's a millions ways for them to just throw you away or kill you. 95% of people in American prison didn't even see trial. Are you aware of the plea bargain problem? I really could go on from a dozen different angles. But you get the idea.
Just Ask Julian INDEED! Who had the Audacity to committ the twin crimes of journalism and whistle blowing. The presstitutes are doing all they can, to distract us from and keep hushed up, his shameful persecution.
I think the Justice system in the US is dead. I agree with you. When you are sent to prison because you can't pay Bail bonds and have to wait years for trial this is not just.
"The one advantage to this type of dystopia is that our rulers need to maintain their nice-guy free society image in order to preserve the illusion that we are free, so they can’t just come out and start imprisoning everyone who spotlights the myriad ways we are enslaved by lies and propaganda."
And that's our in to free the populace--the tearing down of the nice-guy free society image our corrupt governments project. More and more are experiencing this for themselves in the West as they find themselves struggling to keep a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. Perhaps, it's time to write "reverse dystopian" stories to give hope and guidance to the masses who yearn to create a better world. The propaganda and lies can't stand up when the truth and a vision of a truly free world is shared.
I like your thought, however and you knew there would be a however, I think we are now beyond the tipping point of peaceful change. End Stage Capitalism is demanding greater violence and there seems to be nothing standing in the way. I think my last hope died with Obummer as he gave 5 TRILLION to banksters and evictions to the millions. I say let the Guillotines be a bit dull. Just kidding, I am peaceful by nature.........
Yeah, I think we should send out directions for DIY guillotines across the Western world. Be prepared, as it were. Revolutions don't always have to be bloody, but they do involve upheaval and upsetting change. And we should always be prepared for the worse and hope for the best, which is where I pretty much stand at this point. (The MSM propaganda is helping our cause by revealing the true nature of the corrupt system of government we currently have. Let it keep making its mistake and the indie writers at Substack keep pointing them out to an ever-widening audience!) I wrote about my idea of a possible revolution scenario this week: https://therevolutioncontinues.substack.com/p/bullets-v-ballots-or
If you live in a country, where every time a whistleblower shows, that what your government and mainstream media tell you, is a lie? Where your representatives, and your President, don’t represent the majority opinion? Are you living in a democracy?
We live in a pretentious, strutting mockery of democracy. With every big step, sweeping turn and ostentatious bow, the reality that we are not wearing pants is obvious to all, 'butt' ourselves -- the ass of the globe!
Brilliant piece! It seems to me that journalists and editors play a particularly crucial role in constructing the propaganda to which Caitlin refers. The Super Bowl distracting attention from the simultaneous Israeli bombing of Rafah offers an especially compelling example. I wrote about that here: https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/why-we-cant-have-nice-things-like
Thank you for that Shahid. I am losing hope and, I think that last hope will be dashed when the last of Palestine dies in starvation and the world does nothing. I lost two dearest friends with my Vote NO on Genocide Joe choice. I said voting for a kinder Genocide is still Genocide. There is no lesser Genocide. I no longer sleep knowing whats happening and whats coming.
End Stage Capitalism demands this illogical action. Much love and many hugs to you. Stein 24
Well said Sister. We who understand have woken up at different times and for for different reasons but those of us who are awake have stayed awake. We have become discouraged; we have become outraged. We have become quiescent for a while, knowing that the powers of the numbers are not there yet. My fondest Hope is that this is the time finally where we realize that we have the power; that our numbers are legion and that we can destroy this dystopia and create a New World that works for everyone. We have but to desire and we know we can do it. My sense is that we have evolved out of the desire for vengeance, revenge and retribution. My deepest desire is that the blood letting of Russia 1917 and beyond, and the horror of the French terror will not be revisited, in a uniquely American way, given that there are more guns in America than people. This is not outside the realm of possibility, and people have thus envisioned the future of Americans society. Those of us who know that love is stronger than death must prevail on others, must entreaty those not so enlightened; must do everything within our spiritual, physical, mental & emotional power to prevent a bloodbath of epic proportions. My sense is that after the crash of the dollar and the rejection of the American Empire, the shame, the complete disastrous imploding, people will take care of one another, and we will learn that that is where our best happiness lies -in one another. Those of us not having learned this lesson will learn it then. This is my fondest hope.
I like your vision. I have similar hopes and maybe a less bloody way for them to come about that I will expound upon in my post tomorrow at therevolutioncontinues.substack.com "Bullets v. Ballots or...?"
Yes I agree Bernadene It's only after the crash of zionist controlled capitalism that we will learn what is actually natural that we are social animals and social cooperation is just as natural as is competition. In any post capitalist social State (if there is to be one) the careful and nonviolent controlling of the greedy will be a primary function for some generations and if the world id not a smouldering radioactive ruin or a Greenhouse gas induces ruin we will attain our human potential at last . If we can do it it will indeed be Utopia
I’m not sure that capitalism is Zionist controlled, but it’s certainly controlled by the powerful the greedy and we have allowed it thus. Once we wake up and we do not cooperate, it’s a matter of time -how much I do not know, but it will be contained.
Yes indeed it does need ceaseless wars and ever expanding waste products to keep its evil wheels turning but the good news is that the biggests and most economically powerful country in the world (just ahead of the American empire) has rejected capitalism and the system itself is failing as is its empire . To Reverse catastrophic climate change and avoid nuclear destruction we need the failure to accelerate.
Yes, I am tagged with that talking with friends about future possibilities and associated outcomes. Always the accelerationist ha. I work in science so I am accustom to failure and in many cases, failure is necessary for the solution. I certainly agree with you and Putin we in the u.s. are stupid. Using the dollar as a weapon did exactly what is needed for the u.s. empire to bend the knee and think of itself as part of the world rather than ruler of the world. I am old so I don't deserve anything other than a chance to see how it resolves and it will with or without the cooperation of the u.s. I admire what countries are doing with the BRICS. It had to be scary as a central banker to move against the dollar in any small way. I work with people from all over the world so I have never feared or needed to OTHER people. I lived in Chile for a short time working on a telescope there in Tololo. Dinners would always at some point return to the Coup of Allenda. No he didn't kill himself no one can make me believe that. What could have been with a country rich in natural resources other than energy from oil and gas. So, the experiment continues. I wrote a short story Run to the Light. I wrote it when I noticed people in the u.s. gov especially started talking about nuclear war as survivable. Yeah, right. Run to the Light, let the Neutrons shower you in the highest intensity
we knew what happened to Allende at the time it did happen. I have a tapestry made by Chilian women describing what was going on. Since they weren’t allowed to write or speak, or tell the truth, they were able to inform the world with their wonderful talent for sewing, creativity and creation. I admire those who continue to resist in whatever way their God-given talent allows them.
Can you imagine, a week where we all stop working at the same time. The halls of Capital will crash and burn. End Stage Capitalism is demanding war without end. How do we stop it and guide it back to equity without violence now. I think we are long past the tipping point of peaceful transition that Marx had thought about. We are not far from the new phone everyday is heaven. Logic has nothing to do with where we are, and where we are going.
in my world, the fact is that there are most of us who want goodness and caring to prevail. That’s been my experience as a life lived of observation and participation. when those of us thus orientated wake up and are informed and come out of our denial, we will be able to transform to a world peaceful and caring. I know South Africa has its problems but Rev Tutu and Mandela were visionary in their spirituality and their love of their people with the truth and reconciliation commission. Many stories of forgiveness, unimaginable forgiveness took place. We can do that as well, -the reason for self preservation, if not, for the reason of goodness and a moral vision alone.
Great advice. Agitate, annoy, astound, disrupt, provoke, enlighten, paint, highlight, point out a disgusting lack of clothing, shake, rattle and roll, whatever it takes to help cut through the fog of lies and illusions.
"We cannot be free until we have used the power of our numbers to shrug off the control of our dystopian overlords, and we’ll never do that as long as a critical majority of us are unable to see how profoundly unfree we really are."
The operative word you use is "shrug"?
Ahh, those shackles are not just mental or spiritual. They are death by ten thousand cuts -- fines, tickets, tolls, demerits, low credit scores, evictions, impoundments, repossessions, lawsuits, convictions, charges, fees, add-ons, surcharges, taxes, triple taxation, jobs, background checks , drug checks, etc., etc.
Shurgs should be STRIKES. With bats, machetes, with muscle, with collective might, withholding work, walking off the job, tax resistence, etc.
But shurgging when the Wailing Wall White House and Rabbi-Poked Investor Class and the Zionist Zyclon B makers have us by not just the short hairs, but by our entire bodies and minds?
Reset through Molotovs?
Little acts of kindness to our communities, alongside little acts of immolation resistence!
NOPE???? Sure, Civil Rights, Women's Rights, all those real revolutions, just praying on our knees? Machetes? What's that got to do with nukes? The nukes are the product of fucked up men (mostly) and now their patriarchial women (sic) who rule the M.I.C. But I guarantee, cancer comes back, but it sure can be abated with incisions. Zyclon B-Blinken? You want him prancing around with his dead smile?
Wow, you really don’t get it do you ? that’s how come they eliminated Malcolm X that’s how come they eliminated the black Panthers because they believed in violent and armed struggle -in such struggle you just don’t fucking get it do you? They own nukes if the escalation of the armed struggle goes to the degree which they always take it -to the inth degree You will be eliminated by a cruise missile You really do not get it do you?
A bird who ain't flown for 40 years because he was in a cage won't fly when you let him out. His patterns are set, and he's mighty irritated when folks try to "help."
I've said it many times: if you ever wondered how life was in 1930-40s Germany - you're living it right now.
There's a great novel from Ben Elton called 'Two Brothers' which is about exactly that. Elton describes how freedoms are lost little by little. Small thin salami slices, until there's no salami left. And then it's too late.
And for a documentary style read this is a good one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Diary
It's temporal tourism.
No ticket purchase required.
"How could they have not known?" - this is how.
Lots of flavors to chose from but its all refined sugar.. Then go symbolically vote for the next installed one or the other puppet..
I have asked myself that very question. I am frightened by my answer. When Genocide becomes normal to the masses, they dream of their next phone to replace the phone they just purchased last month. I think to myself, were there courts in germany, u.k., france and the u.s. pretending to care about human rights at the time, just long enough to complete the final solution they all wanted. The u.n. will forever be lowercase to me.
Genocides of various scales have been going on for decades, most if not all perpetrated and/or supported by the empire; and I came to the realization long ago wondering about Germany of the period in question. In my visits to Germany, sampling beer and bratwurst was the lowest priority. At the top was visiting sites related to the period, observing Germans, trying to understand.
And I'll repeat once more - yes, Hamas can be blamed for sacrificing tens of thousands - and likely more to come (the US just vetoed another ceasefire resolution) - of fellow Palestinians, but the resonance and reaction of the world to that ongoing genocide can be seen as unprecedented. In this context, all these innocent Palestinians are to be counted as soldiers having fought and lost their lives for their homeland. The result quite possibly will be wiping off that Nazi sewer structure called the state of israel. At last and long overdue.
Oh, definitely. Just look up what Julian Huxley said in his Unesco talk in 1946, it's on page 21 in the document and can be accessed at Unesco's own website:
https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000068197
That was one year after the defeat of the 3rd Reich. 4th Reich here we come!
Never been into any one religion and I guess I’m only moderately spiritual. However it occurred to me recently that from a spiritual perspective they seem to be after our “Free Will.” That’s quite possibly the most important gift given to us by our God. This is what they covet IMO.
I agree. One of the things I hold onto is my spiritual side. And I get that from nature, plant and animals, and I try to hold onto what I know we have in us. I do think they actively try to get us to forget or ignore that side of us, the side that knows right from wrong, like we all did as children.
Seems we think a lot alike.
No, they don't really care about our or anyone else's "free will". They care about money and power - and whatever they have to do in pursuit of attaining those objectives. Any impact to anyone else's "free will" is collateral damage - a secondary consequence of the destructive effects of pursuing "unhinged capitalism" in the pursuit of "social status, money, & power".
Can you give me a single reason as to why the "power elite" would even care about being after anyone's "free will"? (and note that "free will" is a somewhat nebulous concept with no agreed upon definition).
Seems 2 me the more the 0.01% can train & manipulate the attention of the rest of us the more they steal that attention and our control of that free self directed time. Then comes the squeezing of the stone and the plucking of the pigeons.
I think that was his point. That 'they' not only do not value other people's 'free will', but actively seek to reduce and circumvent it.
Caitlin's point goes deeper, how they do this, and why.
As to 'free will', nebulous it might be, but it's an almost objective statement to say that YOU have more free will to spend your day today, than the Ukrainian conscripts with the Azov battalion behind them, and the Russian artillery ahead do.
It may not be a constant, but it can still be measured to some degree.
Although perhaps it won't be that long until the "code" is telling us to sign up to die in Eastern Europe.
>>"I think that was his point. That 'they' not only do not value other people's 'free will', but actively seek to reduce and circumvent it."
I think you misunderstood my comment. What I'm saying is - "the concept of free will itself" is irrelevant to the objectives and motivations of the "power elite". To them, it doesn't matter if something called "free will" exists or not - either for themselves or anyone else. "free will" is not even on their radar. Hence, they have no need to "seek to reduce and circumvent it".
People on the receiving end of the actions and behavior of the "power elite" perceive the consequences (loss of power and control and agency over their own decisions) as "loss of free will". But just because people perceive this loss doesn't mean there is "any concerted plan" to steal people's "free will". Like I said before it is a "side effect" of pursuing power, and not any conscious or unconscious objective to go after people's "free will".
>>"Caitlin's point goes deeper, how they do this, and why."
Maybe you have a different interpretation of Caitlin's post than I do. The "caged bird" is "sometimes" necessary (for the power elite) in order for them to achieve their objectives. They don't cage birds for the fun of caging birds (i.e. people's free will is not an explicit target or objective) As Caitlin says, not all birds need to be caged - only the ones that still think they can fly do (from the perspective of the power elite).
Going further - one interpretation of Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" is that "free will" is an illusion. (This is also present in the writings of David Hume, Baruch Spinoza, Arthur Schopenhauer, and others).
Baruch Spinoza: "Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined."
David Hume: discussed the possibility that the entire debate about free will is nothing more than a merely "verbal" issue. He suggested that it might be accounted for by "a false sensation or seeming experience" (a velleity), which is associated with many of our actions when we perform them. On reflection, we realize that they were necessary and determined all along.
At this point, this argument could easily derail into a philosophical discussion of "what is free will" and "does it really exist". I do not wish to go in that direction. Hence, I consider it unproductive to argue for or against people's interpretation of "free will" (re: your example in the Ukrainian context or your statement "It may not be a constant, but it can still be measured to some degree").
Thank you for your considered response. I am aware of many of the arguments regarding free will/destination.
I personally do not agree with the philosophical basis that the ultra-determinists use.
Inevitably, naturally, our 'free will's are bounded. Both by natural and social elements (our genes do not let us fly in gravity environments by flapping our arms, and our previous cultural exeriences will bound the possibilities our minds can think of).
This I accept, and wonder how ultra-free will advocates can miss these obvious facts.
But applying the same strictures to Destination, it is also OBVIOUS that we CAN make choices. Those poor infantrymen have the choice of certain suicide atacking the positions covered by artillery, certain suicide retreating back into the Azov Nazis machine guns, or a decent chance of living by surrendering to the Russian forces. Those are very real choices that they can make.
Again, we can agree that their previous conditioning will certainly AFFECT those choices that they make. We can see clearly that the large majority choose the artillery option - and die, not least because of the non-stopp social propaganda that everyone is subjected to, but especially at the spear-point of the American Empire.
Nonetheless, those infantrypeople - women are there now as well - do have potential choices they CAN make.
This is by definition a form of free will.
As to why the ruling classes see an expression of free will in those they consider subordinates to be a negative, once again consider those choices. How long would the power structures last, the Ukrainian regime and the American regime, or the Global Corporate regime, if the People simply refused their "orders" - and say the infantrypeople surrendered en masse? The aim to reduce 'free thinking', and be extension free will, is common to self-defined 'elites'. Saying "We don't have one to lose anyway", while philosophically arguable, is simply a boon to those who use us as slaves and cannon-fodder in their games and schemes.
And they are wrong.
Our human free will is precious, ask Julian Assange who used his wisely, and now has less than us because he is in "Britain's Gitmo" in solitary confinement before transportation to a death cell in the USA.
Could he have behaved differently? Of course he could. Does that mean he had FULL "free will"? Of course not. He was bounded by genes, and by a socialisation that may have lead him to be 'heroic'. And nor, even though it somewhat undermines my 'argument', would I rule out futher constrictions upon 'free will'. Astrology, perhaps. Microbiology, effects of diet. There are many influences upon our "Will".
Do they "control" us to the extent we have as much 'free will' as the spore-driven ant who climbs up as high as possible to help the spore propagate, killing itself in the process? Sometimes, perhaps. Perhaps too the ant makes choices on the path up the tree. It has limited free will, and yet it still would have free will *to some extent* under those circumstances.
I find, as so often with these philosophical debates, that the fence-sitting position, choosing neither one side nor the other, that Reality sits between them.
We have free will, but it is bounded and limited. We have destination, but it is bounded and limited. Neither of the ultra- options is entirely correct.
Much like Nature and Nurture, we have both.
The goal of any abusive relationship is to reduce the free will of the victims(s), which indicates there IS a free will there to begin with.
Like animals in zoos, we know what we are lacking when we are lacking it, even if we don't even have words for it.
I understand what you are trying to convey - but I don't agree or interpret "free will" as you do. As I said before, I believe arguing about "what is free will" and "how should free will be interpreted" and "what does this all mean" is a never-ending debate and has an extensive presence in the history and literature of philosophical thought - I don't think we'll get anywhere trying to debate such a topic from our own perspectives.
Those who made it into 'the history and literature of philosophical thought' were not superhuman, had to start somewhere too and to keep on thinking in spite of their meager initial achievements :)
I don't mean that here and now is the very best time/place to discuss the issue of free will though.
They can’t get enough people to sign up for military duty so they can’t go around starting wars that make bank for them. So they are thinking of re-instituting the draft, to take away the free will/ choice of target (literally) group. That’s a single reason.
Jeano - you just made my point for me.
The objective is "to win a war" - not take away people's free will". The perceived loss of "free will" is a consequence of wanting to achieve the primary objective - that of winning the war.
They are NOT going to war to take away people's "free will". The loss/reduction in people's "free will" is a corollary - a natural consequence or result - in the pursuit of the primary objective.
Nice theory but you haven’t been paying attention—the reality is that the US doesn’t care if it wins or not. It can always spin a lose and withdraw, as we have in our last 5 wars. What we really want is to make money, and wars are incredibly lucrative. And most of the citizenry joins in that endeavor not because some big bad daddy puts us in shackles and burned hung and tortured us into submission, but because we think we can share in the war economy’s largesse and pay for our houses with money earned in that bombing of others’ houses. . The blindness to that equation is optional.
Jeano - you are digressing from the current thread - which is a discussion on "explicit intentions to steal/reduce poeple's free will".
Wars (as you talk about in the above comment) is a completely different point of discussion.
>>"the reality is that the US doesn’t care if it wins or not."
The primary purpose of war (from the perspective of the power elite AND capitalists) is to wage any conflict (or sow any division) that increases profit, increases accumulation of resources and wealth, increases power and control, and ultimately increases perceived social status. This representation of war is manifested in many ways - imperialism, colonialism, debt diplomacy, regime-change operations, forced austerity imposed on nations, sanctions, holding nations hostage through financial and trade arrangements/blackmail/repercussions, etc.
"Winning a war" (according to the power elites) is defined differently and means different things to them than to "the common man on the street" (or plebians like us).
>>"but because we think we can share in the war economy’s largesse and pay for our houses"
Yes, I agree - anyone that thinks that wars are fought on behalf of (or to even remotely benefit) "the common man" has been thoroughly brainwashed and propagandized.
Actually, it’s not a digression, it’s an expansion. All you want to do is limit thought and discussion and then repeat your point of view as if it was gospel. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
As I stated, this is on a spiritual level. This is usually based on faith not fact. That is the nature of the topic. There’s not much I can say to convince you. You either feel it, or you don’t.
Luke, I understand what you are saying. The problem I have is that - if we start interpreting the world, the behavior of humans, the dynamics of how the world works, etc. on the basis of "people's spiritual theories, beliefs or interpretations", then one can say almost anything and justify anything (and sometimes get away with anything - as evidenced by the plethora of frauds and conmen masquerading as spiritual gurus). In this scenario, what is the basis for evaluating the "truthfulness or falseness" of anything?
To expand on what I mean above: I can state principles, observations, theories, etc. on the basis of scientific evidence, experimentation, and scientific methods of research and study. But then someone else can come along and say that "from a spiritual level/understanding, everything I say is wrong." So what would be the common ground or basis for argumentation and reasoning for resolving such differences or coming to any mutually acceptable understandings?
couldn't agree more with you here!
Debating Nuns : ) Yes I did, topic Free Will. Nuns, basically, without Free Will there is no evil only fact. My claim, We have NO true Free Will based on our DNA. That was a fun day in the convent. Not sure they thought about asking me back ha. Strange though, the science teachers fell silent. The religious teachers wanted to slap me with a ruler, South Side Chicago.
Most people trade free will for a sens of security,,,and the rulers use that fear of lack of security to brain wash them into servile compliance so they feel safe in the cage ... the cage is said to be for your own good.. Its gilded and couched and 100 channels of escapism... order in ! veg out,, became brain dead by the blue glow of the TV one way lie machines and worship at its altar. And for gods sake man whip that Cheetos dust off your chest!!
When push comes to shove and everyone around you is fighting each neighbour, I doubt the 'spiritual' side will last!
Perhaps if we start loving our neighbors now, especially the children, elders, and dogs, we will feel safer and braver.
Should we not always have been doing this?
Oh, absolutely. But the powers that be hope we won't.
I see we meet again. : )
{..free will...} "That's over" according to Juval Noah Harari, Klaus Schwab's Israeli, gay Zionist main advisor. " Humans are hackable animals" is another of his infamous quotes. Specially the Gentile's !!!
Yes another clue and most definitely us folk 😉
I love that you write that from the username Luke : )
I once had a debate with 10 Nuns, about Free Will , yes I was that dumb. They said we have to have free will or there is no evil only fact, at least that's what I took from their religious argument. I said, We have no Free Will, we only have our DNA which guides a select few choices for us. The science teaching Nuns, stopped speaking and silence. That was a day.
Dumbing down the population, immersing it in ultimately devoid of any substance, but necessarily emotional struggles, and on and on - it's all to distract a person from what they have by definition - free will you refer to.
Lots of so called atheists totally miss the notion and start confusing it with some sort of physical restrictions imposed on people by society as proof of absence of such. Or some other nonsense they wiggle to invent. However, every person has it by definition. Whether they use it or not - that's the ultimate concern for the ruling structures.
I mean what is “civilian shipping”? The Yemeni are only blockading ships suppling Israeli, to prevent mass murder.
So the EU action is to ENSURE GENOCIDE.
This is pure gaslighting.
Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein. (None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.)
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"so they can’t just come out and start imprisoning everyone who spotlights the myriad ways we are enslaved by lies and propaganda" Sure they can, and do. How many of us look close at child porn convictions or do we just assume anyone convicted is a filthy sex criminal and deserves what they get? How many prisons are we blockading for being full of potheads and the mentally ill, or the merely poor? You've got it backwards. They imprison who they like, anyone remotely a threat. We're only free because we're impotent to stop them. The SECOND you say something real, you're instantly a criminal. Criminal conspiracy, incitement, "threatening", "terrorism", you name it. There's a millions ways for them to just throw you away or kill you. 95% of people in American prison didn't even see trial. Are you aware of the plea bargain problem? I really could go on from a dozen different angles. But you get the idea.
Just ask Julian
Just Ask Julian INDEED! Who had the Audacity to committ the twin crimes of journalism and whistle blowing. The presstitutes are doing all they can, to distract us from and keep hushed up, his shameful persecution.
The true rulers of the world ( to borrow from John Pilger ) are quite blatantly and openly carrying out their agenda.
They might think their stenographers are promoting the 'correct' message, but in this I.T., social media age, they're failing.
Far be it for me to diss, JP, from whom I learned so much. Thanks for calling him to mind.
I think the Justice system in the US is dead. I agree with you. When you are sent to prison because you can't pay Bail bonds and have to wait years for trial this is not just.
"The one advantage to this type of dystopia is that our rulers need to maintain their nice-guy free society image in order to preserve the illusion that we are free, so they can’t just come out and start imprisoning everyone who spotlights the myriad ways we are enslaved by lies and propaganda."
And that's our in to free the populace--the tearing down of the nice-guy free society image our corrupt governments project. More and more are experiencing this for themselves in the West as they find themselves struggling to keep a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. Perhaps, it's time to write "reverse dystopian" stories to give hope and guidance to the masses who yearn to create a better world. The propaganda and lies can't stand up when the truth and a vision of a truly free world is shared.
I like your thought, however and you knew there would be a however, I think we are now beyond the tipping point of peaceful change. End Stage Capitalism is demanding greater violence and there seems to be nothing standing in the way. I think my last hope died with Obummer as he gave 5 TRILLION to banksters and evictions to the millions. I say let the Guillotines be a bit dull. Just kidding, I am peaceful by nature.........
Yeah, I think we should send out directions for DIY guillotines across the Western world. Be prepared, as it were. Revolutions don't always have to be bloody, but they do involve upheaval and upsetting change. And we should always be prepared for the worse and hope for the best, which is where I pretty much stand at this point. (The MSM propaganda is helping our cause by revealing the true nature of the corrupt system of government we currently have. Let it keep making its mistake and the indie writers at Substack keep pointing them out to an ever-widening audience!) I wrote about my idea of a possible revolution scenario this week: https://therevolutioncontinues.substack.com/p/bullets-v-ballots-or
If you live in a country, where every time a whistleblower shows, that what your government and mainstream media tell you, is a lie? Where your representatives, and your President, don’t represent the majority opinion? Are you living in a democracy?
We live in a pretentious, strutting mockery of democracy. With every big step, sweeping turn and ostentatious bow, the reality that we are not wearing pants is obvious to all, 'butt' ourselves -- the ass of the globe!
Short answer: No. we definitely are NOT living in a democracy.Haven’t for ~ 50 decades.
You are a treasure. Thank you so much!
Brilliant piece! It seems to me that journalists and editors play a particularly crucial role in constructing the propaganda to which Caitlin refers. The Super Bowl distracting attention from the simultaneous Israeli bombing of Rafah offers an especially compelling example. I wrote about that here: https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/why-we-cant-have-nice-things-like
Thank you for that Shahid. I am losing hope and, I think that last hope will be dashed when the last of Palestine dies in starvation and the world does nothing. I lost two dearest friends with my Vote NO on Genocide Joe choice. I said voting for a kinder Genocide is still Genocide. There is no lesser Genocide. I no longer sleep knowing whats happening and whats coming.
End Stage Capitalism demands this illogical action. Much love and many hugs to you. Stein 24
No one forces us to watch that gladiator contest.
When the masses say look at this, I turn away and think of my friends like Jeano.
🙏🥳
I do too, Landru, relying on iconoclasts to keep me sane.
Well said Sister. We who understand have woken up at different times and for for different reasons but those of us who are awake have stayed awake. We have become discouraged; we have become outraged. We have become quiescent for a while, knowing that the powers of the numbers are not there yet. My fondest Hope is that this is the time finally where we realize that we have the power; that our numbers are legion and that we can destroy this dystopia and create a New World that works for everyone. We have but to desire and we know we can do it. My sense is that we have evolved out of the desire for vengeance, revenge and retribution. My deepest desire is that the blood letting of Russia 1917 and beyond, and the horror of the French terror will not be revisited, in a uniquely American way, given that there are more guns in America than people. This is not outside the realm of possibility, and people have thus envisioned the future of Americans society. Those of us who know that love is stronger than death must prevail on others, must entreaty those not so enlightened; must do everything within our spiritual, physical, mental & emotional power to prevent a bloodbath of epic proportions. My sense is that after the crash of the dollar and the rejection of the American Empire, the shame, the complete disastrous imploding, people will take care of one another, and we will learn that that is where our best happiness lies -in one another. Those of us not having learned this lesson will learn it then. This is my fondest hope.
I like your vision. I have similar hopes and maybe a less bloody way for them to come about that I will expound upon in my post tomorrow at therevolutioncontinues.substack.com "Bullets v. Ballots or...?"
Yes I agree Bernadene It's only after the crash of zionist controlled capitalism that we will learn what is actually natural that we are social animals and social cooperation is just as natural as is competition. In any post capitalist social State (if there is to be one) the careful and nonviolent controlling of the greedy will be a primary function for some generations and if the world id not a smouldering radioactive ruin or a Greenhouse gas induces ruin we will attain our human potential at last . If we can do it it will indeed be Utopia
I’m not sure that capitalism is Zionist controlled, but it’s certainly controlled by the powerful the greedy and we have allowed it thus. Once we wake up and we do not cooperate, it’s a matter of time -how much I do not know, but it will be contained.
Have we past the tipping point of the ability to change. End Stage Capitalism seems to demand a constant state of wars in ever greater numbers.
Yes indeed it does need ceaseless wars and ever expanding waste products to keep its evil wheels turning but the good news is that the biggests and most economically powerful country in the world (just ahead of the American empire) has rejected capitalism and the system itself is failing as is its empire . To Reverse catastrophic climate change and avoid nuclear destruction we need the failure to accelerate.
Yes, I am tagged with that talking with friends about future possibilities and associated outcomes. Always the accelerationist ha. I work in science so I am accustom to failure and in many cases, failure is necessary for the solution. I certainly agree with you and Putin we in the u.s. are stupid. Using the dollar as a weapon did exactly what is needed for the u.s. empire to bend the knee and think of itself as part of the world rather than ruler of the world. I am old so I don't deserve anything other than a chance to see how it resolves and it will with or without the cooperation of the u.s. I admire what countries are doing with the BRICS. It had to be scary as a central banker to move against the dollar in any small way. I work with people from all over the world so I have never feared or needed to OTHER people. I lived in Chile for a short time working on a telescope there in Tololo. Dinners would always at some point return to the Coup of Allenda. No he didn't kill himself no one can make me believe that. What could have been with a country rich in natural resources other than energy from oil and gas. So, the experiment continues. I wrote a short story Run to the Light. I wrote it when I noticed people in the u.s. gov especially started talking about nuclear war as survivable. Yeah, right. Run to the Light, let the Neutrons shower you in the highest intensity
we knew what happened to Allende at the time it did happen. I have a tapestry made by Chilian women describing what was going on. Since they weren’t allowed to write or speak, or tell the truth, they were able to inform the world with their wonderful talent for sewing, creativity and creation. I admire those who continue to resist in whatever way their God-given talent allows them.
Can you imagine, a week where we all stop working at the same time. The halls of Capital will crash and burn. End Stage Capitalism is demanding war without end. How do we stop it and guide it back to equity without violence now. I think we are long past the tipping point of peaceful transition that Marx had thought about. We are not far from the new phone everyday is heaven. Logic has nothing to do with where we are, and where we are going.
in my world, the fact is that there are most of us who want goodness and caring to prevail. That’s been my experience as a life lived of observation and participation. when those of us thus orientated wake up and are informed and come out of our denial, we will be able to transform to a world peaceful and caring. I know South Africa has its problems but Rev Tutu and Mandela were visionary in their spirituality and their love of their people with the truth and reconciliation commission. Many stories of forgiveness, unimaginable forgiveness took place. We can do that as well, -the reason for self preservation, if not, for the reason of goodness and a moral vision alone.
Great advice. Agitate, annoy, astound, disrupt, provoke, enlighten, paint, highlight, point out a disgusting lack of clothing, shake, rattle and roll, whatever it takes to help cut through the fog of lies and illusions.
And remember satire and holding them up to the ridicule they earn every day.
Just as I was despairing Caitlin came through..... thank you!
I think this is one of your most important and crucial posts.
Spot on. All the weeping and gnashing of dentures about "threats to democracy" has me babbling "what democracy?"
"We cannot be free until we have used the power of our numbers to shrug off the control of our dystopian overlords, and we’ll never do that as long as a critical majority of us are unable to see how profoundly unfree we really are."
The operative word you use is "shrug"?
Ahh, those shackles are not just mental or spiritual. They are death by ten thousand cuts -- fines, tickets, tolls, demerits, low credit scores, evictions, impoundments, repossessions, lawsuits, convictions, charges, fees, add-ons, surcharges, taxes, triple taxation, jobs, background checks , drug checks, etc., etc.
Shurgs should be STRIKES. With bats, machetes, with muscle, with collective might, withholding work, walking off the job, tax resistence, etc.
But shurgging when the Wailing Wall White House and Rabbi-Poked Investor Class and the Zionist Zyclon B makers have us by not just the short hairs, but by our entire bodies and minds?
Reset through Molotovs?
Little acts of kindness to our communities, alongside little acts of immolation resistence!
https://paulokirk.substack.com/p/converso-leibowitz-is-back-on-fucking
NOPE. Machetes aren’t gonna do it. Violence is not gonna do it. have you forgotten they hold the keys to nuclear weapons ?com’on!
NOPE???? Sure, Civil Rights, Women's Rights, all those real revolutions, just praying on our knees? Machetes? What's that got to do with nukes? The nukes are the product of fucked up men (mostly) and now their patriarchial women (sic) who rule the M.I.C. But I guarantee, cancer comes back, but it sure can be abated with incisions. Zyclon B-Blinken? You want him prancing around with his dead smile?
Nah, I'll take Long Live the Armed Struggle.
https://www.laprogressive.com/terminal-velocity/women-politicals
Wow, you really don’t get it do you ? that’s how come they eliminated Malcolm X that’s how come they eliminated the black Panthers because they believed in violent and armed struggle -in such struggle you just don’t fucking get it do you? They own nukes if the escalation of the armed struggle goes to the degree which they always take it -to the inth degree You will be eliminated by a cruise missile You really do not get it do you?
A bird who ain't flown for 40 years because he was in a cage won't fly when you let him out. His patterns are set, and he's mighty irritated when folks try to "help."
Good thing-we aren’t birds.