The problem is that the West in general and the United States in particular have already lavished so much material, financial and moral support on the Ukrainian regime that anything less than Total Victory will be a massive blow to Muh American Credibility. For an empire in obvious decline, that could be fatal.
As a result, the West has put itself in a position where it has no choice but to keep on doubling down, and every time the West doubles down, the cost of calling off the war (in terms of the cost to Muh Credibility) goes up.
This abuse of The Sunk Cost Fallacy is entirely intentional.
Total victory? No. We've done away with winning and losing. We've taken victory and defeat out of the equation. That's how we've been able to approach this conflict with such stupidity. Regardless of what happens, we'll spin it as we've spun it from day one to our advantage. See Afghanistan for reference. Putin, on the other hand, needs to apply with the exact opposite method. He needs to move like a chess master and be letter perfect, strategic surgical like strikes and steely resolve. And he has thus far by not deviating from his stated mission. In my opinion, the war has been over for months, just the money funnels and the killing remains.
What exactly has he given, pray tell? He took back the Donbas as he said he would and he's crushed a bunch of skin heads he pulled from the Maripol steelmill. And seriously, it didn't take much effort. I know you wanna see your team win, but seriously Zelensky doesn't know which end is up. The entire Ukrainian government should make a deal with Samsonite to stash US dollars and head for the border.
Every catastrophe gets chalked up in humanity's liability column, whereas the suffering, starvation, and despair are accounted for as dollar denominated assets in the sociopathic balance sheets.
One man's cost is another man's profit. FF garners 19 "likes" with his comment and it's disinformation. In a country where war is profit, he speaks of costs. My question is, what is FF's strategy with this disinformation? What does he, what does his ilk, hope to accomplish?
"put itself in a position".....makes it sound like it's "d.e.m.o.c.r.a.t.i.c."..... it's not! I dint and don't want this www3. If you watch Joe Lauria's Democracy Now Interview last week, while we were busy being entertained during the Trumpfuhrer presidency......Ukraine was "triggering" Russia's known red lines. The war was on rails by then. Muricans be sleepin, yo! Pass the reefer.
Your theory is out of date. It's archaic. Empires don't decline and collapse any longer. They bounce. Putin has proven it. The Soviet Union is back in black.
“Rape via an alpha male is different from other forms of rape. We can't really understand this, as our culture is too detached from instinct.”
Guess who said that, Gilbert, if you don't already know? That's right, your buddy Cernovich (Sept 2013 on Twitter). That's Putin's kind of "Truth and Kindness."
Here's that rape fixation again. Let's put Dr Freud hat on:
You've brought up your father in the past and his encounter with a cop. Your father was big, and the cop was little. It's apparent your father has left a huge imprint and not just in your mind. Every trip in the shower must be a torture for you. Recent Biden's daughter story didn't help either.
USgov wars are not won on battlefields they are won on balance sheets. Death and destruction are just externalities or at most yet more profit centers.
The USgov foreign policy is based on profit alone the rest is propaganda and mitigation. The erected puppets that dance in front of our eyes are paid for by the sociopathic profit-thirsty bankers and soulless silicon valley ghouls.
In the 1920s Ezra Pound joined the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace & knew something was wrong when he could not get a straight answer to the question of who got all the money each world war death cost.
LOL. What do you suppose the balance sheet on Ukraine is? You start with a $150bn economy. OUtput is down 45% this year. that's $57bn right there right now, current.. Who do you think will "P.A.Y."?
~Ukraine's eastern industrial hub is looking... "transferred"....meaning it's likely that what's left of the rump the US identifies as Ukraine will no longer "own" it....(that's how its looking). The eastern half of the country is 2/3 of its output (go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita ). Although the full eastern half has not been transferred, i would say half of the darker red zones in the wikipedia page certainly have been, that's ~33% of GDP on a permanent basis. The transfer, in perpetuity of that $50bn is worth "something". Take Ukrain'es risk free rate of ~5% (pre war of course) and its worth $ 1 trillion right off the top, right now off the balance sheet, which means it adds to the "loss" on the income statement. Who do you think will "P.A.Y."?
Do you feel austerity coming on in the US? Ask the powers that be !
Hey bada bing bada boom, since Joe Manchin has been a good steward of the US budget, let's have Manchin pay?
The sad truth is, USgov foreign policy delivers "gifts" to the chosen few, biblically speaking. The rest do NOT see profits.
Wars are the US stock in trade: there is nothing that suits their mode, role, history better, and "blundering" through them at the cost and well-being of US citizens and other targeted victims is part of the package deal. Politics as casino policy where the house is rigged to win, can't be guaranteed this time, however. The bets are enormous: "bleed Russia dry and make it cry uncle before the US and West goes broke" may not break to US and West advantage: Vietnam should have taught them that those with the most heart in the game have enormous advantage. And Russia has a huge heart. And a history of resistance and personal sacrifice for freedom and sovereignty no other nation can match. They are morally right, with the integrity and courage to back it. The US and West must count on the ignorance of the masses, and that has a shelf life unprecedented conditions of poverty and deprivation could easily shorten.
"long and gruelling" wars yield the highest profits to the MIC. We should assume if they end one, like the 20 year war in Afghanistan, they will gin up another elsewhere. Going to Ukraine protects the graft money stream to the Bidens, Pelosis, and others. Little known is that the Donbas sits on vast untapped oil and gas fields.
The appeasement argument is a legacy of WWII propaganda and we need to set things straight eventually. The Western powers were not afraid of Hitler. They were grooming him to attack the Soviet Union
Actually, he didn't attack Britain either. The so-called War of Britain was a retaliation for the bombing of Berlin. They say that war had decimated the Luftwaffe but Germany still had plenty of planes to invade the Soviet Union. The war of Britain finished when the UK stopped bombing Berlin.
The overall plan was to make Germany spend its resources (a lot of it being furnished by American companies, by the way) on getting rid of the Communists and then invade Germany. But it didn't turn out the way they had figured.
In the end, Operation Overlord was a desperate effort to race the Soviets to Berlin
"he didn't attack Britain either" - well, not in the sense of invading the island, but he kicked their ass in France. There's speculation he didn't finish them off at Dunkirk for some sentimental reason or other, maybe hoping Brits will be on his side against the SU. The rest of it was bombing and that left its trace too. Seems there were plans to actually invade as well.
The hopes of the UK/US that Hitler would finish off "Jewish Commies" or "Commie Jews" in the East was never in doubt as Hitler made it explicit from the very start of his career.
Even the Battle of France would need to be scrutinised. It seems Hitler received a suggestion from a very unlikely source concerning the strategy and he decided to go for it. Then, the British army essentially fled. And after that, the UK had De Gaulle phone the French government in Bordeaux a proposition to annex France
This is an alt-right history lesson for you folks. Maybe after Putin denazifies Ukraine we can ask him, nicely and politely of course, to denazify America. I would like to see Gilbert and his rapist buddy russian_clot abducted like all those Eastern Ukrainians and sent to the Russian Far East.
"alt-right" - so you've narrowed it down then as to what you are - a libtard. I was looking for an all-encompassing term and you've helped nailing it this time. Thanks!
Putin, Trump, Trump, Putin, Putin, Putin. Jan 6, Trump, Jan 6, abortion, Roe/Wade, Jan 6, Putin...
Ishka, your task is to complete the sequence. Fetch!
Public discussion about the present US-Russian war in Ukraine depends on class. The PMC, who are trained by long schooling to be obedient, and still wag little flags after their names, are all for it, as long as only Ukrainians and Russians suffer and die. Uncouth Slavs anyway, right? The proles don't really care about it; they're not getting anything out of it. Outside of the occasional atrocity, it's not even entertaining. When and if things turn sour for them, though, there will be Hell to pay. At inflated prices.
Not for the ruling class. It coopted the unions into the MIC-IMATT where they could be smothered and controlled, it did in the welfare state and undermined American people's remaining control over the nation. It was a master stroke as far at Wall Street is concerned.
Nevertheless I would say it had poor consequences, making it more difficult for the ruling class to have its way. Incredibly, Kissinger's desire to have a war in Angola was turned down by Congress. It took several years to get back to endless war and that had to be accomplished by careful steps, for example the ridiculous invasion of Grenada.
I'd think the pace has picked up since Korea, and has now as I've commented before reached the point where 2 main adversaries are necessary to allow for growth in profit/extraction. Further I have said by the laws of the market Russia and China will soon not be enough, and yesterday Biden gave an implicit okay in Jerusalem to war with Iran, so the 3rd came a bit early. Now either the EU or the remainder of BRICS will become 4th, and so it will go until the extraction is complete.
Uncouth slavs; you read my mis-anthropic mind. My problem with this war is it costs me money. An ex-employer did good Russian business til all the hypocritic moralizing of 2014 & now as a federal tax payer I am bled to arm the Ukraine. To blazes with these war like acts. International law condemns them & crass American domestic economy can not afford them.
Does it? It's true that anti-war candidates don't get anywhere, but that may be more a result of the idea that only people with a lot of money can be taken seriously than of the popularity of war.
Excerpt from conversation between American psychologist Gustave Gilbert and Hermann Göring at Nuremberg (1946) shortly before the latter commited suicide.
Göring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."
Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."
Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
They can’t imagine they are going to lose , it’s never happened before and they are now so confident of victory. That their delusion is complete means the end of having any practical strategy for anything else. They lose everything by sacrificing America to the dogs of war without having anything positive to contribute to the world.
Socially shunned by the world regardless of whatever they think.
Read w
About the fever of the McCarthy Era.
It ended by intelligent people of America speaking up. This proxy war will end the same way.
Good point. Grenada, Panama, Haiti, etc, do have a point in common with the proxy(?) war on Russia. They were not about either invasion, killing cattle, or fattening defense budgets. Rather these nations not only committed the cardinal sin of trying to be independent of the PMC and it's masters control, but did it in Washington's latrine... backyard... front yard. (Joe and his son are incontinent and let loose anywhere, so maybe it's true all of the Americas including USA were moved to the front yard). These efforts hardly made a dint in MIC-IMATT's bottom line, but they were necessary to keep prestige of the slave masters.
Russia has committed not one, but three cardinal sins:
1st: it helped Washington win the Civil War, defeated an American Invasion post WW1, and beat the Germans so badly followed by whipping the crap out of the main Japanese Army (while the US military had barely engaged anything but 2ndary level troops for both) that they pretty much secured the victory over both Japan and Germany by USA State Dept. own internal (then secret) reports, and now they have even gained the upper hand in Syria (for which Obama is livid). This already showed the weakness of our masters.
2nd: They are sitting on enormous wealth which they use to help their own people post Yeltsin, but which PCM and it's masters deem to be their own.
3rd: and most onerously, they have developed the military and diplomatic might to successfully resist being plundered and stand as a symbol and supporter of what can be done against Washington and Wall Street's grasping sick-men.
The first is enough reason for a proxy war, but It is the later two sins that will compel the MIC-IMATT and it's masters to ruin the USA and themselves in their attempts to set things "right". The serious question is are there enough sane men in the military to resist the end of world Pompeo acolytes stuffed through out when they get the launch codes. The ruling class in their ruin may well decide to take the modern version of leaping out off office windows onto the peons below and trigger nuclear extermination of the Holocene.
OK, the DSA has stepped outside the Democratic Party's self-imposed Overton Window. So, is the DSA going to sheepdog us into voting Democrat in 2022 and 2024? I'm not going. I will vote for any candidate that sincerely advocates for peace. For now, that limits me to libertarian Republicans like Thomas Massie or 3rd party candidates. Not a single Democrat voted against the $40 billion aid package for Ukraine. Many Republicans, like Marjorie Taylor Green, voted against it, but will she be as defiant if a Republican president proposes it? Absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary, vote 3rd party in 2022, or leave the ballot blank for that seat.
Caitlin writes, "There are no plans in place to deliver Putin a swift defeat," nor would such a plan be feasible, as Western military production can't even keep up with short term Ukrainian losses and expenditure of ordnance. Meanwhile, Russia uses 10 times the ordnance without missing a beat. It's doubtful this could be turned around even long term, as China's industrial might has Putin's back. The reality is that this war can not be "won" by the Western Empire in its current deindustrialized state and the goal "to use the Ukraine war to "weaken" Russia is not attainable. This war is weakening the West and proportionately strengthening Russia, and will continue to do so as it becomes a strategic conflict. As the 1983 film "War Games" revealed, "The only way to win is not to play." It's too late for that, but we can minimize the losses by seeking peace NOW. The only question remaining is how much of a disaster this will be for the West. The longer it drags on, the worse it will be.
Is there any chance that SOME the pathetic DSA followers who specialize in left-punching will be radicalized and moved left by being punched from their right? Not likely. They will just vote harder.
I was surprised by the flack this still tepid statement by DSA has gotten. It's early statements after the start of Russia's SMO were even worse and disgusting to me in their lack of courage to clearly identity the US's primary role is fomenting and ultimately making so Russia had no choice. So they've move a bit to a better position. Even then it is within the narrow parameters of what the status quo will accept. And vote harder they will, never attacking the capitalistic system that upholds it all.
"There is no morally consistent argument for continuing this proxy war in the way it has been going. If you actually value life and peace, the only way out is through negotiation and compromise. I point this out not because I believe it will happen, but to hopefully help a few more people open their eyes to the fact that we are being deceived.”
Deceived indeed by the world's greatest deceiver, ever. The USA has made all the crimes by Nazi Germany and Japan pale into insignificance with their actions since 1945. Even the highly coloured Holocaust on which the Israelis dine out daily in whatever way it is regarded or represented or marketed, is a minor blip on the humanity horizon when compared to the actions taken by the US against almost every country through wars, threats and their favourite sport, sanctions in all geographies (except for the privileged few). They now pursue further actions in the Pacific with the usual tribe of subservient supporters in QUAD and AUKUS and in Iran with arch criminals Saudi Arabia and the USA's mentor-in-crime, Israel, the latter providing all the financial support needed by 80% of US politicians for their elections…. providing they continue to toe the line. Costly for Israel, yes, but 100% effective. The AIPAC’ers Social Club.
"Yes sir, Israel, whatever you say".
If any thinking person cannot see the motives in these two latest ventures, destroying Iran (Israel’s requirement) and the owning the Pacific, (the last available domain for US ownership) both becoming future US death and destruction projects, I would be very surprised. None of these potential actions come within a bull's roar of mainland USA you might notice....yet again. As an aside, I do hope that the instructions given out to New York residents by their authorities this week as to 'what to do in a nuclear attack' was not based on the idea that a nuclear submarine fleet visit to mainland USA could be an option for those countries who object to America's 2022 plans for world domination and control. A wise precaution, however. Eight million vulnerable residents on the East Coast. A tempting target for any country that finally loses patience with the US / NATO military playgroup, active in a country near you.
It is a fair comment to state that as conditions become worse for the populations throughout the world...shortage of food, high prices, a serious reduction of petrol and heating gas, diminishing economic stability with so many countries and the total disregard for climate stability etc., people will be forced to investigate why they are experiencing these conditions. What is the reason? Why is it so?
We have almost reached that point. To counter such a level of questioning, the evil proprietors of the media and the governments involved that they serve have placed total embargo on the truth.
Let us ensure therefore that those lines of truth we all enjoy remain open, always. Caitlin’s articles are a well supported example.
A final thought. While there are more than 750 U.S bases located in other nations around the globe, not including deadly US chemical biolabs everywhere, there is not one foreign base on American soil. Think on that. Not one.
Quite right. What's desired is a long and expensive war. While ever they're making profits from it.
We've all known that from the beginning.
It is the sole modus operandi of the American State.
Just because time has passed since the height of the Covid madness and you don't see so many masks and people don't talk about doesn't mean there's been any change in that intransigently hostile and lying government.
It is still the same hotbed of competing thieves and liars intent on profit above all else and to the exclusion of all else and via war preferably.
There's a way out. It's coming. It'll be when there's no more profit to be made.
Or: more profit to be made elsewhere.
I think perhaps as BRICS gets stronger and the Rouble etc. perhaps the whole financial makeup of the world will change; well, surely will change, and could change to where the rapacious financiers see more profit in abandoning investment in war in Ukraine and adopting investment in this new growing economy.
Overall the situation is tragic to the point of apocalyptic. But it's not the Ukraine 'war' that is the tragedy, it is the continuing overwhelming evidence that nothing can be or will be seen clearly and sensibly, the population at large will not take an interest in clear perceptions and the villains 'in charge' cannot be removed.
Ukraine serves as a bellwether really. All illogical insanities are present in the 'debate' and opinion pieces at all times and the soldiers themselves represent quite clearly docile ignorant masses marching to their doom in order to pay homage to a myth.
. There is not 'attack on Ukraine' as such at all. There's an incursion in support of one side in a Civil War.
. There is not 'Ukraine defending itself' for Ukraine is fighting itself in this Civil War, of course.
. There is no 'Ukraine' as used in all these narratives: a clear individual entity. For there's four: Ukraine rump, DPR, LPR, and Crimea. Lumped together by such as Zelensky implicitly at all times and explicitly in his conditions prior to negotiation and always illegitimately, in fact.
. There is no 'Russia gaining Territory' for much the main part because it merely aids DPR and LPR recover their own ground hence Russia gained nothing. Evidenced clearly by the LPR, wholly
reclaimed now and proudly LPR, not 'Russia'.
. There is no serious attempt to clarify these issues anywhere not even amongst the Russia sympathisers but the 'Russia v Ukraine' narrative is adopted even by them.
. There is in fact no 'Ukrainian army' in a real sense at all for it is controlled, trained, directed by the USA. To its own detriment we find in the context of traditional Slavic warfare where the troops expect to see their officers on the front line with them but here do not because of US inspired and directed adoption of the US military model. Hence it is not even Ukraine fighting anything or anyone before we get to the detail re just what 'Ukraine' is and who they might be fighting.
. There is no American Aid being 'given' to Ukraine I'm willing to postulate without, admittedly, having the details. All will be attached to strings. There's be repayments, there'll be interest, there'll be conditions and considerations.
. There is no responsible government for the American Government in good conscience to do business with. A fact totally beyond dispute. Meaning that the American Government (and all the other toadying opportunist governments, like UK and Aus for instance) necessarily 'do business' with corrupt and thieving career criminals, extremists, corrupt politicians etc. We could say, by way of illustration, they're doing business with the Mafia.
. There is nothing to be gained by the Ukrainian people who're putting their lives on the line. Should every Russian disappear from Ukraine in the twinkling of an eye we'd be left with a country hosting thousands of dead, widespread destruction, dispossession of multitudes and desertion to other lands and amongst this wreckage they would find, still persisting, not 'cured', not 'settled' , not 'solved' the question of Luhansk, of Donetsk and of Crimea. And a totally corrupt Kiev administration. That's their 'holy grail'. For that they die and get crippled. That is all that is held out to them as a 'win'.
It is all a lie from beginning to end. Just as Covid was/is. And in exactly the same way there's almost total denial of it.
Ukraine is at a minimum four different States we can see quite clearly. I don't mean in political exactitude with constitutions, millions of documents and all that blah, of course. I mean in literal fact of the people who live there.
They fall into at least four disparate groups who each want their own way and are prepared to fight for it. Military type fighting seems to come easy to those people.
Those groups are clearly the Donetsk, the Luhansk, the Crimean and then remaining the 'rump'.
It is noticeable and very significant that there is Donetsk and Luhansk. Two. Not one. Two. And adjoining. Adjoining. Why not 'One' in that case? If aversion to the 'rump' is the problem?
Well because aversion to the rump is not the (whole) problem, clearly. They have other motivations and desires and so they form two. And live together amicably. So far at least. Fight together right now.
So in fact Ukraine IS a Federation of Republics if it were allowed to be.
If all the interfering crooks and manipulators were to magically suddenly leave everyone alone they'd apparently organise themselves into, at least, four groups and coexist amicably, trading and working together: Donetsk, Luhansk, Crimea, Rump.
Maybe they wouldn't coexist so peacefully. Maybe they'd fight because as I say they seem to be so ready to adopt warfare. No matter. That doesn't change the fact it merely demonstrates it all the more doesn't it?
The Ukraine is fragmented.
This whole insane thing is predicated on a refusal to accept that fact.
Certain greedy and mischievous manipulators insist upon it all being 'One', so that they have a bigger heap to leech off, more riches to plunder, more people to hurt. And they are insanely angry at Crimeans going their own way and being happy, at Donetsk citizens doing the same, at Luhansk citizens doing the same.
And from that anger and refusal to accept this very obvious and very fundamental and real nature of he Ukrainian peoples they decree that Ukrainians shall die to the last man and fight with shovels if necessary before there will be any division.
'Insane' has been used so often in this last two years of Covid insanity and malevolent governments that we've become accustomed to its use and its lost its impact. We read it and feel nothing and move on.
But we shouldn't. We should stop right there and reflect on that and act on that, on the truth of it.
It is all insane. Meaning not logical, not true, fantasy, untruth, misdirection, hallucination: madness.
We are being driven mad by the overwhelming deluge of fantasy and untruth.
Those thousands of Ukrainians dying on the battlefield fighting for nothing, with no hope of any personal gain whatever - there but for the grace of god go we.
There in verisimilitude go we. In our streets and towns, our cities, we are following precisely the same path. We ARE they. We as susceptible to being misdirected into our own graves as those poor Ukrainians are unless we start to look with the eyes of reason and think with reason and compassion and humanity.
"...There is no morally consistent argument for continuing this proxy war in the way it has been going..."
The sorts of people who try to argue for continuing it just aren't consistent at all (morally or otherwise) in my experience. Bunch of partisans who, for example, are willing to forgive and forget when it comes to Iraq because the architects of that war said Trump was bad and that was good enough for them. But they'll never forgive Putin for Ukraine.
Or, they're people who'll foam at the mouth and call you sexist when you say you didn't vote for Hillary, but they ended up being overjoyed when the last woman in the 2020 Democratic primary was forced to drop out and hoped for a Biden nomination, which they got.
Or, they'll talk about how Twitter is a private company that can do whatever it wants and that this is fine with them. But later, when a guy they don't trust to stifle dissenting voices takes charge of the platform, they'll throw fits and say that Musk should NOT be allowed to do whatever he wants with his private company.
I've gained a fonder appreciation for Chomsky's writings in recent years...save for his desire for me to die of starvation with his fanatical and ghoulish diatribe wishing death on non-vaxxers and non-maskers preserving their own bodily autonomy. Himself limited by the Overton window of acceptable thought and behavior regarding all things pandemic. I don't much trust a creep in my foxhole wishing me dead as other foes are attacking. Too bad. He had a lot to offer that could help push back against the sociopaths running the world in these times if he wasn't such a sociopath himself.
All hail the Ukro-Russian peace advocacy of the international committee of the Democratic Socialists of America because nothing validates the isolationist, anti-militarist & anti-imperial aims of the old right quite like the Democratic Socialists of America. Never mind the domestic implications.
The problem is that the West in general and the United States in particular have already lavished so much material, financial and moral support on the Ukrainian regime that anything less than Total Victory will be a massive blow to Muh American Credibility. For an empire in obvious decline, that could be fatal.
As a result, the West has put itself in a position where it has no choice but to keep on doubling down, and every time the West doubles down, the cost of calling off the war (in terms of the cost to Muh Credibility) goes up.
This abuse of The Sunk Cost Fallacy is entirely intentional.
Total victory? No. We've done away with winning and losing. We've taken victory and defeat out of the equation. That's how we've been able to approach this conflict with such stupidity. Regardless of what happens, we'll spin it as we've spun it from day one to our advantage. See Afghanistan for reference. Putin, on the other hand, needs to apply with the exact opposite method. He needs to move like a chess master and be letter perfect, strategic surgical like strikes and steely resolve. And he has thus far by not deviating from his stated mission. In my opinion, the war has been over for months, just the money funnels and the killing remains.
By invading Ukraine, Putin has proven he can't play chess. He's the gift that keeps on giving. A rube.
What exactly has he given, pray tell? He took back the Donbas as he said he would and he's crushed a bunch of skin heads he pulled from the Maripol steelmill. And seriously, it didn't take much effort. I know you wanna see your team win, but seriously Zelensky doesn't know which end is up. The entire Ukrainian government should make a deal with Samsonite to stash US dollars and head for the border.
Is it really a sunken cost if this is all intentional and the costs were likely known from the beginning of this latest abomination?
Interesting point. In this case, it's used as a justification.
Cost to us, profit to private interests.
Exactly.
Every catastrophe gets chalked up in humanity's liability column, whereas the suffering, starvation, and despair are accounted for as dollar denominated assets in the sociopathic balance sheets.
One man's cost is another man's profit. FF garners 19 "likes" with his comment and it's disinformation. In a country where war is profit, he speaks of costs. My question is, what is FF's strategy with this disinformation? What does he, what does his ilk, hope to accomplish?
Ray Epps and Luke Philip Robinson come to mind.
"put itself in a position".....makes it sound like it's "d.e.m.o.c.r.a.t.i.c."..... it's not! I dint and don't want this www3. If you watch Joe Lauria's Democracy Now Interview last week, while we were busy being entertained during the Trumpfuhrer presidency......Ukraine was "triggering" Russia's known red lines. The war was on rails by then. Muricans be sleepin, yo! Pass the reefer.
Your theory is out of date. It's archaic. Empires don't decline and collapse any longer. They bounce. Putin has proven it. The Soviet Union is back in black.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA
I see you're still trying to convince the whole wide world of what a fool you are
Gilbert, try smiling next time. Put on a happy face.
“Rape via an alpha male is different from other forms of rape. We can't really understand this, as our culture is too detached from instinct.”
Guess who said that, Gilbert, if you don't already know? That's right, your buddy Cernovich (Sept 2013 on Twitter). That's Putin's kind of "Truth and Kindness."
Here's that rape fixation again. Let's put Dr Freud hat on:
You've brought up your father in the past and his encounter with a cop. Your father was big, and the cop was little. It's apparent your father has left a huge imprint and not just in your mind. Every trip in the shower must be a torture for you. Recent Biden's daughter story didn't help either.
That is, seek help, sicko.
Simple, Putin is only my buddy in your comic books
Actually its in his mashup of internet porn he watches in mother's basement, ahem, his bear cave.
USgov wars are not won on battlefields they are won on balance sheets. Death and destruction are just externalities or at most yet more profit centers.
The USgov foreign policy is based on profit alone the rest is propaganda and mitigation. The erected puppets that dance in front of our eyes are paid for by the sociopathic profit-thirsty bankers and soulless silicon valley ghouls.
In the 1920s Ezra Pound joined the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace & knew something was wrong when he could not get a straight answer to the question of who got all the money each world war death cost.
Spot on. You are exactly right.
LOL. What do you suppose the balance sheet on Ukraine is? You start with a $150bn economy. OUtput is down 45% this year. that's $57bn right there right now, current.. Who do you think will "P.A.Y."?
~Ukraine's eastern industrial hub is looking... "transferred"....meaning it's likely that what's left of the rump the US identifies as Ukraine will no longer "own" it....(that's how its looking). The eastern half of the country is 2/3 of its output (go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita ). Although the full eastern half has not been transferred, i would say half of the darker red zones in the wikipedia page certainly have been, that's ~33% of GDP on a permanent basis. The transfer, in perpetuity of that $50bn is worth "something". Take Ukrain'es risk free rate of ~5% (pre war of course) and its worth $ 1 trillion right off the top, right now off the balance sheet, which means it adds to the "loss" on the income statement. Who do you think will "P.A.Y."?
Do you feel austerity coming on in the US? Ask the powers that be !
Hey bada bing bada boom, since Joe Manchin has been a good steward of the US budget, let's have Manchin pay?
The sad truth is, USgov foreign policy delivers "gifts" to the chosen few, biblically speaking. The rest do NOT see profits.
Wars are the US stock in trade: there is nothing that suits their mode, role, history better, and "blundering" through them at the cost and well-being of US citizens and other targeted victims is part of the package deal. Politics as casino policy where the house is rigged to win, can't be guaranteed this time, however. The bets are enormous: "bleed Russia dry and make it cry uncle before the US and West goes broke" may not break to US and West advantage: Vietnam should have taught them that those with the most heart in the game have enormous advantage. And Russia has a huge heart. And a history of resistance and personal sacrifice for freedom and sovereignty no other nation can match. They are morally right, with the integrity and courage to back it. The US and West must count on the ignorance of the masses, and that has a shelf life unprecedented conditions of poverty and deprivation could easily shorten.
"long and gruelling" wars yield the highest profits to the MIC. We should assume if they end one, like the 20 year war in Afghanistan, they will gin up another elsewhere. Going to Ukraine protects the graft money stream to the Bidens, Pelosis, and others. Little known is that the Donbas sits on vast untapped oil and gas fields.
Even less known is that the troops in Afghanistan were not brought back home. They were transferred to Poland on the border of Ukraine
If only the DSA had the guts to use the word "diplomacy", but after backing DNC policy on Iran, Venezuela, etc. etc.; they dare not speak it.
Hi here is DSA's work on Venezuela:
https://international.dsausa.org/venezuela-solidarity/
and Iran:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYW0C1vmgrU
Oct 21, 2021.... LOL.
The appeasement argument is a legacy of WWII propaganda and we need to set things straight eventually. The Western powers were not afraid of Hitler. They were grooming him to attack the Soviet Union
If Hitler didn't make the mistake of attacking Britain then it and the US would be Hitler's allies against the Soviet Union.
Actually, he didn't attack Britain either. The so-called War of Britain was a retaliation for the bombing of Berlin. They say that war had decimated the Luftwaffe but Germany still had plenty of planes to invade the Soviet Union. The war of Britain finished when the UK stopped bombing Berlin.
The overall plan was to make Germany spend its resources (a lot of it being furnished by American companies, by the way) on getting rid of the Communists and then invade Germany. But it didn't turn out the way they had figured.
In the end, Operation Overlord was a desperate effort to race the Soviets to Berlin
"he didn't attack Britain either" - well, not in the sense of invading the island, but he kicked their ass in France. There's speculation he didn't finish them off at Dunkirk for some sentimental reason or other, maybe hoping Brits will be on his side against the SU. The rest of it was bombing and that left its trace too. Seems there were plans to actually invade as well.
The hopes of the UK/US that Hitler would finish off "Jewish Commies" or "Commie Jews" in the East was never in doubt as Hitler made it explicit from the very start of his career.
Even the Battle of France would need to be scrutinised. It seems Hitler received a suggestion from a very unlikely source concerning the strategy and he decided to go for it. Then, the British army essentially fled. And after that, the UK had De Gaulle phone the French government in Bordeaux a proposition to annex France
Yeah, you don't get that sense by reading "Their Finest Hour". Even Goebbels was impressed by Churchill's sheer propaganda power.
I'm glad to see this stuff is coming to the surface at last. It's been a long while in the old septic tank.
This is an alt-right history lesson for you folks. Maybe after Putin denazifies Ukraine we can ask him, nicely and politely of course, to denazify America. I would like to see Gilbert and his rapist buddy russian_clot abducted like all those Eastern Ukrainians and sent to the Russian Far East.
"alt-right" - so you've narrowed it down then as to what you are - a libtard. I was looking for an all-encompassing term and you've helped nailing it this time. Thanks!
Putin, Trump, Trump, Putin, Putin, Putin. Jan 6, Trump, Jan 6, abortion, Roe/Wade, Jan 6, Putin...
Ishka, your task is to complete the sequence. Fetch!
You must tell me what comics you read. They look fascinating
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.
You resemble this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AzAFqrxfeY
Public discussion about the present US-Russian war in Ukraine depends on class. The PMC, who are trained by long schooling to be obedient, and still wag little flags after their names, are all for it, as long as only Ukrainians and Russians suffer and die. Uncouth Slavs anyway, right? The proles don't really care about it; they're not getting anything out of it. Outside of the occasional atrocity, it's not even entertaining. When and if things turn sour for them, though, there will be Hell to pay. At inflated prices.
They would not care if Americans die, as long as it's the "wrong" Americans and they die in quantity.
Hoovering the proles _en masse_ into the Vietnam meatgrinder had poor consequences.
Not for the ruling class. It coopted the unions into the MIC-IMATT where they could be smothered and controlled, it did in the welfare state and undermined American people's remaining control over the nation. It was a master stroke as far at Wall Street is concerned.
I should add in the end the rulers even exported the working class jobs to Vietnam, and China, in no small part due long term effects of same war.
Nevertheless I would say it had poor consequences, making it more difficult for the ruling class to have its way. Incredibly, Kissinger's desire to have a war in Angola was turned down by Congress. It took several years to get back to endless war and that had to be accomplished by careful steps, for example the ridiculous invasion of Grenada.
I'd think the pace has picked up since Korea, and has now as I've commented before reached the point where 2 main adversaries are necessary to allow for growth in profit/extraction. Further I have said by the laws of the market Russia and China will soon not be enough, and yesterday Biden gave an implicit okay in Jerusalem to war with Iran, so the 3rd came a bit early. Now either the EU or the remainder of BRICS will become 4th, and so it will go until the extraction is complete.
Uncouth slavs; you read my mis-anthropic mind. My problem with this war is it costs me money. An ex-employer did good Russian business til all the hypocritic moralizing of 2014 & now as a federal tax payer I am bled to arm the Ukraine. To blazes with these war like acts. International law condemns them & crass American domestic economy can not afford them.
But it wins at the polling booth ~ USA! USA! USA!
Does it? It's true that anti-war candidates don't get anywhere, but that may be more a result of the idea that only people with a lot of money can be taken seriously than of the popularity of war.
Excerpt from conversation between American psychologist Gustave Gilbert and Hermann Göring at Nuremberg (1946) shortly before the latter commited suicide.
Göring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."
Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."
Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
They can’t imagine they are going to lose , it’s never happened before and they are now so confident of victory. That their delusion is complete means the end of having any practical strategy for anything else. They lose everything by sacrificing America to the dogs of war without having anything positive to contribute to the world.
Socially shunned by the world regardless of whatever they think.
Read w
About the fever of the McCarthy Era.
It ended by intelligent people of America speaking up. This proxy war will end the same way.
There’s never an exit strategy. Well, maybe Grenada. That’s what you do when you get off on invasion and killing and fattening defence budgets.
Good point. Grenada, Panama, Haiti, etc, do have a point in common with the proxy(?) war on Russia. They were not about either invasion, killing cattle, or fattening defense budgets. Rather these nations not only committed the cardinal sin of trying to be independent of the PMC and it's masters control, but did it in Washington's latrine... backyard... front yard. (Joe and his son are incontinent and let loose anywhere, so maybe it's true all of the Americas including USA were moved to the front yard). These efforts hardly made a dint in MIC-IMATT's bottom line, but they were necessary to keep prestige of the slave masters.
Russia has committed not one, but three cardinal sins:
1st: it helped Washington win the Civil War, defeated an American Invasion post WW1, and beat the Germans so badly followed by whipping the crap out of the main Japanese Army (while the US military had barely engaged anything but 2ndary level troops for both) that they pretty much secured the victory over both Japan and Germany by USA State Dept. own internal (then secret) reports, and now they have even gained the upper hand in Syria (for which Obama is livid). This already showed the weakness of our masters.
2nd: They are sitting on enormous wealth which they use to help their own people post Yeltsin, but which PCM and it's masters deem to be their own.
3rd: and most onerously, they have developed the military and diplomatic might to successfully resist being plundered and stand as a symbol and supporter of what can be done against Washington and Wall Street's grasping sick-men.
The first is enough reason for a proxy war, but It is the later two sins that will compel the MIC-IMATT and it's masters to ruin the USA and themselves in their attempts to set things "right". The serious question is are there enough sane men in the military to resist the end of world Pompeo acolytes stuffed through out when they get the launch codes. The ruling class in their ruin may well decide to take the modern version of leaping out off office windows onto the peons below and trigger nuclear extermination of the Holocene.
OK, the DSA has stepped outside the Democratic Party's self-imposed Overton Window. So, is the DSA going to sheepdog us into voting Democrat in 2022 and 2024? I'm not going. I will vote for any candidate that sincerely advocates for peace. For now, that limits me to libertarian Republicans like Thomas Massie or 3rd party candidates. Not a single Democrat voted against the $40 billion aid package for Ukraine. Many Republicans, like Marjorie Taylor Green, voted against it, but will she be as defiant if a Republican president proposes it? Absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary, vote 3rd party in 2022, or leave the ballot blank for that seat.
Caitlin writes, "There are no plans in place to deliver Putin a swift defeat," nor would such a plan be feasible, as Western military production can't even keep up with short term Ukrainian losses and expenditure of ordnance. Meanwhile, Russia uses 10 times the ordnance without missing a beat. It's doubtful this could be turned around even long term, as China's industrial might has Putin's back. The reality is that this war can not be "won" by the Western Empire in its current deindustrialized state and the goal "to use the Ukraine war to "weaken" Russia is not attainable. This war is weakening the West and proportionately strengthening Russia, and will continue to do so as it becomes a strategic conflict. As the 1983 film "War Games" revealed, "The only way to win is not to play." It's too late for that, but we can minimize the losses by seeking peace NOW. The only question remaining is how much of a disaster this will be for the West. The longer it drags on, the worse it will be.
Is there any chance that SOME the pathetic DSA followers who specialize in left-punching will be radicalized and moved left by being punched from their right? Not likely. They will just vote harder.
I was surprised by the flack this still tepid statement by DSA has gotten. It's early statements after the start of Russia's SMO were even worse and disgusting to me in their lack of courage to clearly identity the US's primary role is fomenting and ultimately making so Russia had no choice. So they've move a bit to a better position. Even then it is within the narrow parameters of what the status quo will accept. And vote harder they will, never attacking the capitalistic system that upholds it all.
"Russia's SMO." Yeah, you're objective. I bet you call it "the Ukraine" too.
Oh look, an ankle-biter!
Как правильно, Ишка, на Украине или в Украине?
From Caitlin today….
"There is no morally consistent argument for continuing this proxy war in the way it has been going. If you actually value life and peace, the only way out is through negotiation and compromise. I point this out not because I believe it will happen, but to hopefully help a few more people open their eyes to the fact that we are being deceived.”
Deceived indeed by the world's greatest deceiver, ever. The USA has made all the crimes by Nazi Germany and Japan pale into insignificance with their actions since 1945. Even the highly coloured Holocaust on which the Israelis dine out daily in whatever way it is regarded or represented or marketed, is a minor blip on the humanity horizon when compared to the actions taken by the US against almost every country through wars, threats and their favourite sport, sanctions in all geographies (except for the privileged few). They now pursue further actions in the Pacific with the usual tribe of subservient supporters in QUAD and AUKUS and in Iran with arch criminals Saudi Arabia and the USA's mentor-in-crime, Israel, the latter providing all the financial support needed by 80% of US politicians for their elections…. providing they continue to toe the line. Costly for Israel, yes, but 100% effective. The AIPAC’ers Social Club.
"Yes sir, Israel, whatever you say".
If any thinking person cannot see the motives in these two latest ventures, destroying Iran (Israel’s requirement) and the owning the Pacific, (the last available domain for US ownership) both becoming future US death and destruction projects, I would be very surprised. None of these potential actions come within a bull's roar of mainland USA you might notice....yet again. As an aside, I do hope that the instructions given out to New York residents by their authorities this week as to 'what to do in a nuclear attack' was not based on the idea that a nuclear submarine fleet visit to mainland USA could be an option for those countries who object to America's 2022 plans for world domination and control. A wise precaution, however. Eight million vulnerable residents on the East Coast. A tempting target for any country that finally loses patience with the US / NATO military playgroup, active in a country near you.
It is a fair comment to state that as conditions become worse for the populations throughout the world...shortage of food, high prices, a serious reduction of petrol and heating gas, diminishing economic stability with so many countries and the total disregard for climate stability etc., people will be forced to investigate why they are experiencing these conditions. What is the reason? Why is it so?
We have almost reached that point. To counter such a level of questioning, the evil proprietors of the media and the governments involved that they serve have placed total embargo on the truth.
Let us ensure therefore that those lines of truth we all enjoy remain open, always. Caitlin’s articles are a well supported example.
A final thought. While there are more than 750 U.S bases located in other nations around the globe, not including deadly US chemical biolabs everywhere, there is not one foreign base on American soil. Think on that. Not one.
Quite right. What's desired is a long and expensive war. While ever they're making profits from it.
We've all known that from the beginning.
It is the sole modus operandi of the American State.
Just because time has passed since the height of the Covid madness and you don't see so many masks and people don't talk about doesn't mean there's been any change in that intransigently hostile and lying government.
It is still the same hotbed of competing thieves and liars intent on profit above all else and to the exclusion of all else and via war preferably.
There's a way out. It's coming. It'll be when there's no more profit to be made.
Or: more profit to be made elsewhere.
I think perhaps as BRICS gets stronger and the Rouble etc. perhaps the whole financial makeup of the world will change; well, surely will change, and could change to where the rapacious financiers see more profit in abandoning investment in war in Ukraine and adopting investment in this new growing economy.
Overall the situation is tragic to the point of apocalyptic. But it's not the Ukraine 'war' that is the tragedy, it is the continuing overwhelming evidence that nothing can be or will be seen clearly and sensibly, the population at large will not take an interest in clear perceptions and the villains 'in charge' cannot be removed.
Ukraine serves as a bellwether really. All illogical insanities are present in the 'debate' and opinion pieces at all times and the soldiers themselves represent quite clearly docile ignorant masses marching to their doom in order to pay homage to a myth.
. There is not 'attack on Ukraine' as such at all. There's an incursion in support of one side in a Civil War.
. There is not 'Ukraine defending itself' for Ukraine is fighting itself in this Civil War, of course.
. There is no 'Ukraine' as used in all these narratives: a clear individual entity. For there's four: Ukraine rump, DPR, LPR, and Crimea. Lumped together by such as Zelensky implicitly at all times and explicitly in his conditions prior to negotiation and always illegitimately, in fact.
. There is no 'Russia gaining Territory' for much the main part because it merely aids DPR and LPR recover their own ground hence Russia gained nothing. Evidenced clearly by the LPR, wholly
reclaimed now and proudly LPR, not 'Russia'.
. There is no serious attempt to clarify these issues anywhere not even amongst the Russia sympathisers but the 'Russia v Ukraine' narrative is adopted even by them.
. There is in fact no 'Ukrainian army' in a real sense at all for it is controlled, trained, directed by the USA. To its own detriment we find in the context of traditional Slavic warfare where the troops expect to see their officers on the front line with them but here do not because of US inspired and directed adoption of the US military model. Hence it is not even Ukraine fighting anything or anyone before we get to the detail re just what 'Ukraine' is and who they might be fighting.
. There is no American Aid being 'given' to Ukraine I'm willing to postulate without, admittedly, having the details. All will be attached to strings. There's be repayments, there'll be interest, there'll be conditions and considerations.
. There is no responsible government for the American Government in good conscience to do business with. A fact totally beyond dispute. Meaning that the American Government (and all the other toadying opportunist governments, like UK and Aus for instance) necessarily 'do business' with corrupt and thieving career criminals, extremists, corrupt politicians etc. We could say, by way of illustration, they're doing business with the Mafia.
. There is nothing to be gained by the Ukrainian people who're putting their lives on the line. Should every Russian disappear from Ukraine in the twinkling of an eye we'd be left with a country hosting thousands of dead, widespread destruction, dispossession of multitudes and desertion to other lands and amongst this wreckage they would find, still persisting, not 'cured', not 'settled' , not 'solved' the question of Luhansk, of Donetsk and of Crimea. And a totally corrupt Kiev administration. That's their 'holy grail'. For that they die and get crippled. That is all that is held out to them as a 'win'.
It is all a lie from beginning to end. Just as Covid was/is. And in exactly the same way there's almost total denial of it.
Ukraine is at a minimum four different States we can see quite clearly. I don't mean in political exactitude with constitutions, millions of documents and all that blah, of course. I mean in literal fact of the people who live there.
They fall into at least four disparate groups who each want their own way and are prepared to fight for it. Military type fighting seems to come easy to those people.
Those groups are clearly the Donetsk, the Luhansk, the Crimean and then remaining the 'rump'.
It is noticeable and very significant that there is Donetsk and Luhansk. Two. Not one. Two. And adjoining. Adjoining. Why not 'One' in that case? If aversion to the 'rump' is the problem?
Well because aversion to the rump is not the (whole) problem, clearly. They have other motivations and desires and so they form two. And live together amicably. So far at least. Fight together right now.
So in fact Ukraine IS a Federation of Republics if it were allowed to be.
If all the interfering crooks and manipulators were to magically suddenly leave everyone alone they'd apparently organise themselves into, at least, four groups and coexist amicably, trading and working together: Donetsk, Luhansk, Crimea, Rump.
Maybe they wouldn't coexist so peacefully. Maybe they'd fight because as I say they seem to be so ready to adopt warfare. No matter. That doesn't change the fact it merely demonstrates it all the more doesn't it?
The Ukraine is fragmented.
This whole insane thing is predicated on a refusal to accept that fact.
Certain greedy and mischievous manipulators insist upon it all being 'One', so that they have a bigger heap to leech off, more riches to plunder, more people to hurt. And they are insanely angry at Crimeans going their own way and being happy, at Donetsk citizens doing the same, at Luhansk citizens doing the same.
And from that anger and refusal to accept this very obvious and very fundamental and real nature of he Ukrainian peoples they decree that Ukrainians shall die to the last man and fight with shovels if necessary before there will be any division.
'Insane' has been used so often in this last two years of Covid insanity and malevolent governments that we've become accustomed to its use and its lost its impact. We read it and feel nothing and move on.
But we shouldn't. We should stop right there and reflect on that and act on that, on the truth of it.
It is all insane. Meaning not logical, not true, fantasy, untruth, misdirection, hallucination: madness.
We are being driven mad by the overwhelming deluge of fantasy and untruth.
Those thousands of Ukrainians dying on the battlefield fighting for nothing, with no hope of any personal gain whatever - there but for the grace of god go we.
There in verisimilitude go we. In our streets and towns, our cities, we are following precisely the same path. We ARE they. We as susceptible to being misdirected into our own graves as those poor Ukrainians are unless we start to look with the eyes of reason and think with reason and compassion and humanity.
"...There is no morally consistent argument for continuing this proxy war in the way it has been going..."
The sorts of people who try to argue for continuing it just aren't consistent at all (morally or otherwise) in my experience. Bunch of partisans who, for example, are willing to forgive and forget when it comes to Iraq because the architects of that war said Trump was bad and that was good enough for them. But they'll never forgive Putin for Ukraine.
Or, they're people who'll foam at the mouth and call you sexist when you say you didn't vote for Hillary, but they ended up being overjoyed when the last woman in the 2020 Democratic primary was forced to drop out and hoped for a Biden nomination, which they got.
Or, they'll talk about how Twitter is a private company that can do whatever it wants and that this is fine with them. But later, when a guy they don't trust to stifle dissenting voices takes charge of the platform, they'll throw fits and say that Musk should NOT be allowed to do whatever he wants with his private company.
I've gained a fonder appreciation for Chomsky's writings in recent years...save for his desire for me to die of starvation with his fanatical and ghoulish diatribe wishing death on non-vaxxers and non-maskers preserving their own bodily autonomy. Himself limited by the Overton window of acceptable thought and behavior regarding all things pandemic. I don't much trust a creep in my foxhole wishing me dead as other foes are attacking. Too bad. He had a lot to offer that could help push back against the sociopaths running the world in these times if he wasn't such a sociopath himself.
All hail the Ukro-Russian peace advocacy of the international committee of the Democratic Socialists of America because nothing validates the isolationist, anti-militarist & anti-imperial aims of the old right quite like the Democratic Socialists of America. Never mind the domestic implications.