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Vin LoPresti's avatar

“Trump, who’s been pretty good at avoiding lose-lose situations has now put himself in the mother of all lose-lose situations”.

—Trita Parsi

jamenta's avatar

"A neurosis is truly removed only when it has removed the false attitude of the ego. We do not cure it - it cures us."

~Jung

Mary W Maxwell's avatar

Jamenta, would you say a bit more? I don't get it.

Thanks.

jamenta's avatar

What is implied here by the quote is that (sometimes) suffering is the only path to real learning or growth. A foundational premise of Jungian psychology is that the psyche is a self-regulating system, and is teleological in nature. It is always moving forward in some way with the unconscious attempting its self-realization. A neurosis occurs when the ego insists on one narrow avenue of experience and movement; disallowing all other avenues for the growth of the psyche, or the crucial need of the unconscious to individuate. The neurosis then emerges from the unconscious itself.

jamenta's avatar
2hEdited

The human body is also a self-regulating system, and depends a great deal upon unconscious processes (as does the psyche). Sleep is regulated, balance, vision, temperature of body, etc.

So when your ego - insists on doing something not good for your body's self-regulation, such as keeping your hand on a very hot stove, severe pain is invoked, and learning of the ego commences.

It is also true that violence begets violence. When the means are violent, the ends also (often) become violent, with few exceptions.

Davina's avatar

Unfortunately, right now the whole world is about to get a lesson because the US failed to curtail Drumpf and his excesse - of many kinds. He should have already been in prison for several years, with many more still to go. Huge mistake, Americans, huge.

Vin LoPresti's avatar

Dynamical systems theory. Applies across all complex adaptive systems. Every cell is a self-regulating system. In Nature, just scaling up.

Mary W Maxwell's avatar

Thank you. I don't get the last bit about violence. What are 'means' and 'ends'?

For me, just looking at the world, I'd say that those who won't 'do' violence are then indubitably controlled by those who 'do do' violence.

By the way I think both Gandhi and MLK were plants.

Smacko9's avatar

Dr. Angyal speaks of the weakness

which results from lack of conceptual clarity concerning

what is to be encouraged and fostered. Here the idea

of the "real self" emerges in functional terms - as a

development consistent "with the principle of confident

self-acceptance that governs the basic system of health".

He continues:

The healthy pattern must be sought and uncovered, not

within the pseudo-normal surface personality where its

vestiges serve merely to disguise the neurotic assumptions,

but within the depth of neurosis itself. Only when

the destructive and self-destructive attitudes ... can

themselves be shown to be distortions of healthy trends

is contact with the real self established; one gets to

it by going through the neurotic attitudes, not around

them. Tracing manifest disturbances to the unacceptable

motives generated within the neurotic framework takes

one only halfway toward understanding them. This

partial understanding fills the person with shame and

guilt, which in themselves are not conducive to change.

Real understanding traces the neurotic manifestation

all the way back to its healthy sources.

When the neurosis is discovered to be an approximation, or a

twisted version of health, the patient's outlook becomes hopeful.

excerpts from:

'Thinking and Writing'

VOLUME XXIX, NO. 10MARCH 10, 1976

http://www.manasjournal.org/pdf_library/VolumeXXIX_1976/XXIX-10.pdf

jamenta's avatar

I'm going to quote Spock on this: "Fascinating doctor."

Smacko9's avatar

"Neurosis is an affliction of motive; recovery involves self-understanding, or

being able to distinguish between healthy and neurotic motives, which are often intertwined."

----

The Neurosis of misdirection & fractured identity

& weakness which results from lack of conceptual

clarity tends to spread its cancerous mendacity

---

Focus Unite!

;-)

David Baird's avatar

Of course, behind Fatman Orange there's what-the-Hegseth and the outer loony fringe searching for ways to bring on Armageddon so he and all his pure-of-heart circle of whackos can climb their stairway to heaven. They may well persuade Fatman to press the big button and it's f-a-a-a-a-a-r-k'n hell for us all.

Vin LoPresti's avatar

By wielding the fattest grisliest Lies: "This administration makes Hunter Biden look like Ralph Nader"

-Max Blumenthal

jamenta's avatar
36mEdited

Apparently, so do pedophile billionaires and the MIC.

The Revolution Continues's avatar

No, it's people who think they're speaking for Jesus who love war. And these war hawks need to shut the f*ck up!

spider ray johnson's avatar

Zionists and Trump show us how to behave without any semblance of Dignity.

ennui_mcgee's avatar

How about the Western neoliberals who preface every objection to war their leaders inflict on the world with "I'm against the war, but..." Don't take your eye off them, because they won't hesitate to rebuild the precipice we're standing at right now in the name of "justice."

They don't believe in a multinodal world. They are still under the delusion that as long as they are in charge women will be free, gays won't be thrown from rooftops, and liberal democratic elections will blossom. These are the "ends justify the means" people and Europe is infested with them.

David Korabell's avatar

Israel has killed Ali Larijani - An Iranian moderate that was willing to negotiate for a possible end of hostilities.

They have no desire for anything less than a scorched earth elimination of their enemies.

https://julianmacfarlane.substack.com/p/murder-most-foul-fc1?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=837411&post_id=191342481&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=4x5pf&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

At this point, it certainly seems to be Israel's survival vs that of everyone else.

If Iran loses this war (and I don't think they will) it will cement USrael as a global autocracy.

I fear there will be months of suffering before there is any light at the end of the tunnel.

Davina's avatar

An assassin or two could stop the whole thing, and I don't mean more Iranians - they are the innocents in this horror.

David Korabell's avatar

I have often thought about that. My fear is an assassination might create a martyr for people to rally around and any replacement might have greater power.

N. Obody's avatar

its hard to make someone like Trumptanyahu a martyr, they have far too slimy of a personality for that saintly aura

dale ruff's avatar

I made the same mistake: oh no, Trump won''t bomb oil/gas infrastructure for fear of raising gas prices more but Israel bombed the largest gas field in the world! Oh, what a contradiction!

And then I found that 94% of that gas was for domestic use and so it would not cause a global supply shock on the global market. It will only cause more suffering of ordinary Iraninas, just as Trump's blocade of oil to Cuba is causing massive suffering, on the debunked idea that when people have suffered enough, they will choose a regime beneficial to those who made them suffer.

So it is not the global energy shock at stake with this IDF strike but another step towards causing massive suffering of ordinary people. And the 6% that is exported goes mainly to Turkey, not a factor in global gas prices. And......gas is not transportable like oil so it plays only a small role in the global market , as it is used mostly for local markets, not the international arena, due to difficulties in shipping gas.

The danger is that attacking energy infrastructure could spread, Trump might adopt it, and it could expand into a broader energy disruption.

Locally, gas has risen $1.20 a gallon since the war started. This means inflation, Feds will not cut rates, more unemployment, Trump will have to lie even more to mask his fear of being exposed as the worst President in the entire universe. And behind it all, the Epstein scandal, erased by war, lurking, haunting, festering.

David 1260's avatar

Apparently you've never heard of LNG carriers: ships that transport liquified natural gas. It's become a major energy market. e.g., Europe buys LNG as it refuses to buy Russian gas from the pipelines.

Feral Finster's avatar

The Israeli strategy is simple - by destroy Iran as a state, they force Iran to retaliate by destroying what leverage they have.

If you kill the hostages, the hostage taker's leverage evaporates.

Israel has lots of experience in killing hostages.

Amy Blumenshine's avatar

Given the lack of US citizen support for the war against Iran, the war perpetrators may attempt a False Flag domestic attack. They have plenty of covert experience and connections. This would be a good time to review other False Flag operations, including Israel's attempt to sink the USS Liberty in 1967, "Remember the Maine" and the Tonkin Gulf excuse. The public must remain observant and skeptical.

Patrick Powers's avatar

North Vietnam fired a torpedo at the USS Maddox. The torpedo tubes are on display in the military museum in Hanoi. I've seen them. The second alleged Tonkin incident didn't occur.

The US wanted a war and would have gotten it sooner or later. Vietnam is proud that they fought back sooner rather than later.

Anti-Hero in a Half Shell's avatar

Given that there's no successful / serious manufacturing of consent going on (the way the admin's justification flip flops between "Iran has nukes", "free their women, aren't you Team Bikini over Team Burqa", or "they shot 30 million protestors" is something even a child wouldn't find compelling ... this is not even on the level of a Colin Powell or Nayirah speech), I wonder whether this is the moment when the US government is revealing its role as a power player in the eyes of average normie libs (“mask off” / synchronization ritual). The US has always played this role, but apart from Chomsky readers or Wikileaks lurkers, most people are conditioned into believing that it's ultimately a good guy that makes mistakes sometimes.

I once thought that if enough people just understood how devastating and inhuman these wars were, they would not continue and people would "rise up!", so to speak. Given the gloating about sinking ships / killing fishermen / bombing schoolchildren, there's not as much pretense of respectability. Which, in some sense is refreshing, but at the same time it’s a clear signal that one does not need to consent to this for it to occur. Is it that Frank Zappa quote in effect? And if so, what’s the future going to look like? Will this ultimately be recuperated into another era of so-called “Hope and Change”, an illusion of political change? Will the “secular liberal democracy” thought-terminating cliché (and subsequent Sam Harris pontificating) finally die?

I also have mixed feelings about how most of the complaints towards these Middle East interventions (that I’ve seen) tend to be along the lines of “holy crap, my tax dollars!”, as if that’s a bigger problem than wanton killing of non-citizens. It’s basically a population who’ll be more disturbed by watching the national debt rise, compared to, say, that “Collateral Murder in Iraq” clip on Wikileaks. It's the equivalent of getting mad at your friend for killing someone in your house ... with the main complaint being that they got blood on your carpet.

Mitch Ritter's avatar

I'll bet you didn't intend to or know you had just nut-shelled U.S. Mass Media regulatory and programming values & verities. Check US international policy positions since President Ike (da good Commander In Chief) and these values and verities which deviate not a whit from 'market values' lay behind each Chief Executive policy and each Military Deployment bill of orders. Take that up with Jung and observe him stick that in his Eternal Fount of Shared Wisdom (see Jamenta, Mary Maxwell and Vin LoPresti above...) and then smoke it, passing his pipe around all assembled at the Roosevelt Institute that den of Commies!

Move along electoral pedestrian, your choices will be made for you yet again regardless of who you vote for....The up-side has been unprecedented stability and wealth concentration for the 1/10th of 1% of US.

Here: We can discuss amongst ourselves. Only not on a US based news broadcaster....

Source: Those Commies and Stalinists at the Roosevelt Institute:

https://rooseveltinstitute.org/publications/concentrated-markets-concentrated-wealth/

Tio Mitchito

TM

Mitch Ritter\Paradigm Sifters, Code Shifters, PsalmSong Chasers

Lay-Low Studios, Ore-Wa (Refuge of A-Tone-ment Seekers)

Media Discussion List\Looksee

Anti-Hero in a Half Shell's avatar

Agreed that US foreign policy had been headed toward war and interventionism since way before; my main point is that up until now there was at least a *pretense* that this was for less sadistic aims. Now, the rhetoric is also in a "we kick the Iranians when they're down, no international law" manner, which I'm curious about. Is it because most people are so unaware of the world that such simplistic "Iran bad" is sufficient for them? I have never voted, I don't believe that the system will ever incentivize or even allow an anti-war candidate--peace is not on the ballot.

I also agree that there has been a consistent consolidation of wealth and power for those who already exist as the top of the economic hierarchy. But the question is, how would one stop this, or get out of it?

Patrick Powers's avatar

'Is it because most people are so unaware of the world that such simplistic "Iran bad" is sufficient for them?'

Not most, it is enough for 27%. Their role in life is to hate whomever authority tells them to hate.

hope4gaia's avatar

I share your dilemma, Caitlin. But, just in the past couple of weeks, I've turned into a warrior for peace. I know that the world cannot possibly be peaceful until Israel is dismantled and Trump and his evil companions are pushing up daisies.

I'm amazed at how terribly bad it had to get for people to understand the huge shift that has to come.

So now I'm putting into mind that happens as soon as possible. And then we can rebuild a world of people who care for each other.

Mary's avatar

Good. About time the colonizing, genocidal, thieving West learns there will be limits to how much others on this earth are willing to take. They're done.

Joy in HK fiFP's avatar

Welcome to interesting times! We are definitely living in a funhouse, which statement or even image, is true, or are they all false. There are still a few hold outs banging the war drums, so keep up the good work, and we the choir don't mind hearing the same sermon yet another time.

Another WorldView Is Possible's avatar

💯 . What's a dissident to do - when CNN suddenly starts becoming complicit, in committing acts of Journalism - rather than acts of Genocide???

I guess that I'd just point out, to anyone amongst the Iranian Government, who's actively defending against this Anglo-American Zionist Empire War of Aggression - that if the obvious AI, deep-fake 'proof of life' videos from Netanyahu are any indication, of their success in targeting... Then reciprocal Ambassador Mike Huckabee's participation, in the efforts to keep the Zionist Regime's Government from collapsing, could be seen as making him a legitimate Military target... Just sayin'...

Ginnie's avatar
2hEdited

Retaliatory strikes...on other vassal states. What a loss for the US. If you think this is waking people up in any meaningful way, you’re kidding yourself. This isn’t a moment of reckoning, it’s business as usual, just louder.

The US is using the countries in the middle east as service stations through which to fight wars which it refuses to host on its own soil. The cost isn’t paid in Washington, Des Moines or Miami, it’s paid in the so-called “allies” turned into permanent frontlines, where entire populations live under the shadow of decisions made an ocean away by the prefects who own their governments.

The Middle East has basically been turned into a battlefield. And that distance is exactly what keeps people in the U.S. and the West comfortable. For them, this war is abstract, something to scroll past, debate, or ignore. It’s a headline, not a lived reality. They don’t know what it means to hear an explosion and wonder if the next one is yours, to drive down a street where buildings can vanish in seconds. They don’t feel it, so they don’t fight it.

And that’s the point. As long as the violence stays “over there,” opposition will remain weak, performative, and easy to shrug off. Which is exactly what we’re seeing right now. For most Americans, it’s just another distant conflict: out of sight, out of mind. At best, you get mild disapproval and that mainly because people are inconvenienced with higher gas prices and therefore for selfish reasons. Very few will talk about the humanity of Iranians and ask themselves why it is ok for us to just attack this country and kill its people and declare them terrorists. No one is questioning why we are killing the leadership of other nations and then refer to it as "elimination" like it was pest control.

They dont ask these questions because they dont care. For many this is all a foregone conclusion that they take for granted. They accept the premise and only object to the methods and timing. At worst, you get armchair patriots cheering destruction like it’s a highlight reel. But none of this is opposition or eye opening to anyone who isn't already aware.

Davina's avatar

So, the solution? Remind them about the Two Towers, which is only a tiny example of really being bombed. So imagine that all day, every day, for months, or years and all because some butter decides to help a rogue state kill more people flatten more property, cause chaos for so many, simply because they want to rule the world - to make everyone else their slaves.

Good luck to Iran, I say. Flatten the bastards and total finish any hope of their dream ever coming even close.

Anti-Hero in a Half Shell's avatar

Well articulated, this is exactly what I’ve been struggling to express.

Patrick Powers's avatar

"No one"? Certainly not. I wonder what the percentage is.

Ginnie's avatar

very few people really question the underlying premise. They just take for granted that we have the right to kill leaders of other countries because they are "bad" and we are "good". How many of the average people in your life talk about what is happening in Cuba you think? How many truly ask themselves if Iran really is

all that bad. It is not no one, sure, but it is so little as to barely make a dent

Patrick Powers's avatar

With mainstream media 100% a propaganda operation it is hard to tell what some percentage of ordinary people think.

Alan's avatar

Psychopathic genociders! The Pentagon, rather Pentagram, is now asking for $ 200 billion to fight Iran in an illegal, undeclared war that WE, repeat, WE started on behalf of Israel. This is WAAAY beyond imsanity! It is treason!

Doris Wrench Eisler's avatar

Israel is a dead country walking a tightrope. Can the US afford to keep it up?

The Revolution Continues's avatar

Singing: "These times are a-changing!"

It was the best of times...it was the worst of times, but at least things are moving. Americans have had their eyes opened, and they're not following the lead of those in power. I'll take this as a good sign. But we can't rest--we need to keep pointing out the evils of the military-industrial-capitalist system. We have to shoot down the wars forever.

Patrick Powers's avatar

I wrote a book that included an imaginary book for which the first line was "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, then it got worse."