'Blue people and green people'. I think it's indicative of the decline of our civilisation that something as easy to understand as a straightforward campaign as genocide, needs to be further reduced to simple, childish language and imagery as though it was a kiddies cartoon or bedtime story, in order to help adults to grasp the morality of the situation.
Unfortunately, concepts of morality or justice still elude a majority of said adults.
It’s been said many times that without Oct. 6, there wouldn’t have been an Oct.7.
Or as Antonio Guterres said: it didn’t happen in a vacuum.
The only thing Hamas did against international law was to take hostages, to exchange for the thousands of Palestinian hostages now held in IsraHelli prisons; men, women and children, held with no charges, tortured and raped. Sometimes you have to break the law a bit; guilty as charged myself 😉
And it’s plain as the nose on Satanyahoo’s face that Israhell was warned repeatedly by both Egypt and its own border soldiers that something was brewing. It’s obvious that Butcher Bibi construed a false-flag in order to seize Gaza and its resources.
I don't believe Caitlin was writing a dumbed down article for us. She was confirming a fact for everyone. Tools are good : ) In my physical life I like to engage and debate people who respond to keywords : ) When I say Free, Free Palestine at the guard gate, if there is no one behind me occasionally an interesting discussion follows. Of course I'm not yet on campus grounds until I pass the gate ha. You wouldn't think anyone would not support stopping the Genocide and then there is Genocide Joe, a bomb in one hand and a lunch snack in the other. We are in serious trouble. With the u.s. and the u.n. spiraling down the power vacuum. Who will stand against the Genocidal Maniacs of israel? My heroes the people of Yemen and South Africa are not powerful enough yet to save Palestinians. They are dying and will be mass murdered. The only consolation, israel has ended itself economically. Depression sets in being helpless to help. The world is so F ing illogical it's killing all of us. Sorry, I had to speak to a friend, thank you for listening.
Hasbara trolls like to point out that the citizens of Gaza supported Hamas, as though that justifies starving them all to death. My reply is to point out that the French Resistance was widely supported during WWII, why wouldn't the Gaza Resistance get support? (Don't bother adding the resistance movements of other countries like Poland, Romania, etc., most Americans don't know there were any others.) The most coherent responses to that observation I've gotten to that is profanity.
"You can’t equate the violence of the oppressor with the violence of the oppressed. They’re not the same, and the oppressor is the ultimate source of the violence from both sides".
Another golden nugget from Caitlin. The fact that Caitlin has to explain an obvious truth ( with imagery) that the rampaging genocidal violence of Israel cannot be equated with Hamas's retaliation; that there is absolutely no moral equivalence; that whatever violence Hamas is accused of is the cause and effect of the oppression they are subjected to, speaks volumes for the dystopia we live in right now.
My question really is did Hamas not think of the possibility that Netanyahu and his right wing government would not implement a genocide, or something comparable, especially when Netanyahu could have been in prison by now for his corruption. Did they think it could be a possibility that he would use it to get the one state solution he always wanted? It's not just about wanting to strike back at the abuser, but worrying how far the abuser would go in his retaliation.
I am with you Fran. I am not for taking the life of any being. That's why we find ourselves unable to comprehend the enormity of what's happening to the people of Gaza, while the world is watching. In a saner world there would be non-violence. But that would be asking for an unattainable Utopia.
I'm right there with you, Indu. So much so I'm a fruitarian so even plant beings need not consider me a predator. Simply fruit, seeds and nuts; that's what's on offer from Nature should you want to live off the fat of the land.
That's true. I go to Aljzeera, every day and I don't know how this is allowed to continue. I don't believe for one moment they are interested in getting Hamas, and feel it's all about implementing their plan to make Gaza uninhabitable no matter how many men, women, children they kill. I think a lot of people see it that way. An outrageous inhumanity is on full display everyday.
I know it happens, and it's normal that people rise up against their abusers, and I am not going to judge them, and I understand why they do. However too often when they do they are slaughtered in great numbers like the people of Nambia and the German genocide 100 years ago that resulted in 10's of thousands of deaths. That's all I meant.
Since the US has never been in a war on their own land how can anyone say how they would behave. When the killing starts there is a sort of hysteria that happens and many unlikely people are swept along. I have seen it.
I know but recently I was reading about the genocide in Nambia, I understand how the oppressed would rise up, normal, but the retaliatory response was horrendous in that they killed all of them, some 90 thousand or more.
Fran, there are many instances in history where the oppressed have risen up (regardless of the odds of success or 20/20 hindsight cost/benefit analysis that you expect/assume the oppressed to do) against the oppressors.
Here are two books/resources I suggest that will answer your questions (or at least give you the background to understand) about your concerns/reasoning behind Hamas' actions:
(1) As described by Frantz Fanon in his book "The Wretched of the Earth" - his first chapter "On Violence" goes into depth on the psychology involved (and the consequences) of using violence by the oppressed. (Examples: Algeria, Warsaw Ghetto, Black slave uprisings and rebellions, and hundreds of other such actions taken by the oppressed throughout history).
(2) Frantz Fanon - "Alienation and Freedom" which describes the psychology of armed resistance to colonization in African countries. The French massacre of 45,000 Algerians IN A SINGLE DAY (May 8, 1945) is one example of the unfolding logic of armed struggle, resistance, and violence against the oppressor. (https://www.trtafrika.com/africa/algerians-remember-french-massacre-of-45000-compatriots-13156640)
My guess is that you seem to be struggling with the post-hoc consequences of Hamas' actions (which I believe are nowhere near an endgame scenario at this precise moment in the Gaza genocide) and moral evaluations of right/wrong and trade-offs and maybe what-if scenarios. When contemplating action choices, it is easy for anyone to be beset by hindsight bias - i.e. knowing what we know now maybe we would have made different decisions. But at the time of point of action, no one really knows for sure how things will unfold, or what all the cause-and-effect relationships of the multitude of decisions and variables will be. This kind of probability analysis (that is easier to perform after the event has occurred & given the passage of time) is extremely challenging to do when events are actually unfolding - due to the complexity and unpredictability and randomness of life, society, nation states, ephemeral relationships between variables, level of knowledge possessed at the time by the parties/groups involved etc.
I certainly can understand the oppressed rising up against the oppressor, but I sometimes wonder did Hamas expect this kind of retaliatory response? Netanyahu with nothing to lose is unpredictable, so did Hamas know a genocide might be in the cards? That has always bothered me. They certainly knew he and his Likud party knew of their plans, and knew they were simply dismissed. They no doubt knew Egypt warned Israel only days before that an attack was imminent. Ignored. Why? I would be very suspicious of that. I would wonder does he want this to happen, will he use it as his end game, a genocide? They certainly must have known the US couldn't be trusted not to come to Israel's defense, and assist her in carrying out this carnage. Everything going on in the West Bank tells you that Israel not only doesn't want a two state solution, but wants the Palestinians gone one way or another. I also know there is no other alternative to change things. I don't really know what Hamas thought would happen maybe others have a better idea.
It's not that i don't understand that people are going to fight back, I do, but the retaliatory response in regard Israel and other's who are abusive, like Germany in Nambia there is such overkill it's hard to stomach. Just wondering what Hamas thought the response would be. Did they think it would be on this level? Did they think they would use it to implement so much death and destruction? It's especially true when you know how little Israel and it's people give a damn about the lives of Palestinians. There is a question there. I know their lives were bad, but they had their families, their schools, their homes, their hospitals. Now maybe nothing.
One could have said the same thing about the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto. Their backs were to the wall, literally and figuratively.
As odious as the Nazi regime was, we didn't see German families picknicking by the Ghetto Wall to watch snipers pick off peaceful protesters the way Israeli families did.
I was thinking more in terms of whether Hamas ever thought about the degree of retaliatory response. I would be worried about that since you have an extreme right wing government in place and a man, Netanyahu who would use it as an opportunity to implement a genocide and get the one state solution he always wanted, which also buys him time. Just wandering what Hamas thought would be the response. It's something to consider.
Framing a question that communicates the Israeli propaganda is a bad faith tactic. You do this crap all the time. I refer specifically to this, which Israeli's use to blame and discredit Hamas: (they openly say they intentionally kill civilians to convince them to blame Hamas, not Israel):
"did Hamas expect this kind of retaliatory response?"
You also repeatedly do this crap all the time.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are verbally abusive, You don't just disagree, but put me down first, so stay away from me. Also you don't just disagree with people but your narcissism is always on full display with others, as well, and unless they adopt your perspective you go into what I perceive to be little more then a childish rant. Take you pathology elsewhere.
I always thought the Israeli's were forewarned. Several days before the attack Egypt warned them of an impending attack. also suspicious behavior by Hamas was reported by those monitoring Gaza, but they were ignored. The government had the detailed plans Hamas was going to implement, and they said they were too difficult for them to carry out and dismissed them, and although they provide excuses for the long delay before they responded on Oct, 7, that also seems suspicious. Hamas hit some 20 towns before any response, and Israeli forces were very slow in assisting those who were at the festival and I read some are suing due to their delayed response. Netanyahu's jail bait, so implementing this genocide buys him time and his long held dream. Contrarian 33 put up a good post on the Gaza Marine which also makes things look more suspicious.
This is a really good question. I'd give it 90% odds Mossad knew what was coming and stood down at the least, if not actively assisting them--they needed Oct 7 to justify everything since, in which they engage in a horrific genocide, the purpose of which is to force other countries to take in the survivors, to ethnically cleanse Gaza. But why did Hamas do something sure to bring on horrific violence from Israel? I've equated it with the way, when I was a big kid, my big brothers would dominate me and my sisters--I knew they would always win a physical fight but occasionally out of frustration I would fight back anyway. And likely there were infiltrators pushing the plan forward.
To me it just made sense and I didn't believe Israel would simply brush it off, especially the warning from Egypt, and they did have their plans. I t also buys Netanyahu time to carry out an agenda he always wanted, a one state solution, and time out of jail. if he is convicted the charges could put there. No one ever brings this up and I wonder why, a set up. Let it happen, don't respond for a long time, greater damages, so a genocidal response and he has the support of the Israeli people.
I saw allegations/speculations of this within a week of Oct 7. It wasn't mentioned but I already knew about the gas fields off Gaza--I read that Israel was willing to make a deal with PA but didn't want to have to give any money to Hamas. Recently I read that they also have plans to dig a new canal, to compete with the Suez, which would run along the north side of Gaza. But they have kindof a tightrope to walk--they set up Oct 7 to justify the genocide to follow, but now they have to display a sufficiently horrific level of violence to push an unwilling Egypt--or somebody-- to permanently take in a million or more refugees, but without quite--well, looks like that has been harder than they expected, they still have no takers and they have an ICJ case against them, they've had to get their US lackeys to veto Security Counsel resolutions three times; western government have scarcely slackened their support but are all under siege from their own populations--Israel will pay a price for this, and it looks like the only way they'll fully clean out the Gazans is to kill them all.
Mary Wildfire I have a lot of unanswered questions in my head that were there since October 7. Israel was forewarned but ignored those warnings, and their response time was so slow Hamas hit 20 towns, and of course there were accusations against Hamas that were simply not true, like they raped women, and killed babies. The implementation of Israel's genocidal rampage didn't surprise me because everything that was going on in the West Bank said they are going to have a one state solution, which is something Netanyahu always wanted as did Hamas. Netanyahu was up on corruption charges and last year could have been his last year since he was already making court appearances in 2023. Israel's response to any attacks has always been over the top, and I just wonder what Hamas expected and a result of their assault. The US is disgusting in their response to all this and they just asked Trump and he just gave an off handed response and doesn't give a damn, and damn him. So many people I know are really against what Israel is doing even though through decades they have been silent on this issue, but not now. I hope Israel pays a very big price for her genocidal attacks, and to think she was given another's land because of such attacks on the Jewish population makes it more disgusting.
"Supporting mass murder because of your religion is not a legitimate position to have."
This message really needs to get through to many mainstream Protestant denominations. They seem to think they can have it both ways--kiss up to Zionist interests and preach "Love your neighbor" at the same time. Mass murder is evil. It's contradictory to the loving your neighbor. You'd think even the dimmest bulb in the box could figure that out.
The weird thing RC, is that mainstream protestants don't really like jews. They ( protestants) only want the Temple Mount rebuilt to presage the return of the christ, at which time they will be raptured up to heaven to sit with their god, whilst the jews being heathen non-believers, will be left behind to face damnation. I wouldn't be happy to get that sort of "support" from people around me.
It's so sick. The C and J variants of zionism rabidly support each other to hasten the eventuality that would, according to their respective views, ensure the other's destruction.
I think this puts you over Caitlin's red line: (or should I have played the same game you were just a player in: "Does this comment violate Caitlin's directive?")
Well, I've been around the clock and lived in UK and Europe and Canada and parts of USA, east west coast, Mexico, Vietnam. The pint is the Jews and Israelis and Goyim I've worked with and called friends who have set foot in Israel all said they went to the Holy Land where they wanted to expect he Jewish religion,ba Jewish country, Jewish food, Jewish people, Jewish culture, Jewish security, Jewish entertainment, Jewish beaches, Jewish hotels, Jewish tourist events, Jewish places of worship, Jewish politics, Jewish education, Jewish technology, Jewish military parades, Jewish schools, Jewish ways.
Never, 'I just came back from Zionist Palestine where I soaked myself in Zionist life and met amazing Zionists." Nope. It was and still is all about Judaism, Jews, Talmudic laws, and Jewish pride, supremacy, elitism, control."
Mothership Israel is Mothership Judaism, and nothing to do with something they use to cover up their true blue roots. Jews are controlling Israel, not Baptiste or Catholics or Adventists or Witnesses.
"The Talmud has been a favorite target of antisemites for at least a
millennium. They take quotes out of context, truncate them, even
fabricate them, never mention it may be just one rabbi's opinion, and
never mention what Jewish law or Jewish practice actually is.
They do this to make Jews look bad and stir up hatred against them.
Let's take a look at some of these “charges” and answer them
properly, particularly because these lies have been proliferating
exponentially on the Internet.
2-Claim: Jews may kill Gentiles at will.
Proof: The Talmud says:
Rabbi Shim'on ben Yochai taught: [Even] the good among the Gentiles
must be killed. [Tov shebe goyyim harog] [Sofrim 15:10]
Answer: He meant in time of war."
The context is then presented (I clipped it here).
So, it seems that we have an interpretive question not a "fact" question.
As I've previously noted, extraordinary claims (like Che's) require extraordinary documented support, i.e. evidence (and none was even offered, never mid provided).
I don’t se how you became well versed in the Talmud, seeing as you weren’t previously aware of it, and just googled it.
Domelord presented facts concerning the makeup of “semites” and was given insulting, short shrift, from “the author”.
Fact, Jewish support for the Palestinian genocide, while not universal, is overwhelming, wouldn’t you agree?
Google it for yourself.
TicTok is a good resource for observing this ideology, almost firsthand.
When I look at the totality of objective evidence right in front of my eyes, for decades and decades, and decades, I come to the almost inescapable conclusion that there is something seriously sick with the mindset of many, probably most, Jewdiast practitioners.
Not all, Bill.
Hell, there have even been a tiny number of republicans that I have agreed with, so no cult is completely hopeless.
But, I’m having a difficult time pinning down exactly what a Jew is.
Seriously.
Is it a religion, or a race, ethnicity, culture, tribe, a club, a cult, an excuse, or just some made up bullshit.
Are we all god’s children, or aren’t we?
Some are better than others?
Chosen?
Pure?
Segregated?
Racist?
I thought that we figured out a long time ago that blood is distinguishable by type, and not by the “type” of person it came out of.
Too much looking at people as “the other” instead of as family.
And, I don’t think that we can progress by shutting down conversation/communication.
That would seem to just send everyone to their respective corners, waiting for the bell to ring, so they can come out fightin’.
Like I said, I know nothing about the Talmud, but I can smell the wafts of antisemitism.
Ironic, I agree with some of your criticism, e.g. a few days ago I posted comments here taking exception to Caitlin's prohibition on anything regarding jews as jewish. But I linked my criticism directly to the statements of Israeli officials that justified the Genocide and Zionism based on jewish or Biblical bases. That is NOT antisemitic as it is not my opinion and the religious dimensions are directly linked to the motivations for Genocide.
In contrast, some broad brush unsubstantiated opinion (Che and the precursor to his, for Turcot?) that attacks Judaism and Talmud as a religion per se is bullshit and antisemitic. The text and link I posted was a reply to those who insisted that such bullshit was a "fact".
But if you read what I did post, it cited EXACTLY the quote you offer and said it was taken out of context because the context was killing during war. The other 2 quotes you offer in no way support your original claim. 57 is basically an eye for an eye for view of justice and 58 is merely excessive retaliation, not the "goy" targeted per se false claim you initially made. Reading really is fundamental.
Supporting mass murder…there is no legitimate reason! I’m ashamed of Biden, Congress, Americans who do ignorantly or deliberately support Blue Israel’s deliberate murder of Green Palestinians.
Well, groups of people are protesting in the streets of America and many people I know are against this genocide, and people are resenting Biden's complicity in this. Unfortunately many Americans know their voice and opposition means nothing in this country. Biden is sending in food with one hand with bombs in the other. Look how stupid they think we are?
When Africans decapitate and dismember human beings with machetes, they are "savages". When Westerners decapitate and dismember human being (and crush them under concrete) using bombs, they "have advanced armaments"
Somehow, I wish I knew how, oppressors have to go because they just cause more hate and more oppression. I just keep talking and disagreeing with everyone who says so and so is that way because they are.......choose an ethnicity, a religion, a skin colour. I object all the time. But so far, it has not changed the world.
nor will it, susan. not ever. the suppressors and oppressors are w/ us forever and always have been. they seem to be spawned from a progenitive fountainhead that has been inculcated w/ 'hatred for the other'. by whom? by their mothers? by their fathers? by their teachers? by the bullies on their childhood playgrounds who were manumitted to disdain, diminish, and victimize them, such that as adults they have sedulously clawed their way to sufficient power-structures whence they can seek revenge? all this hatred begins in the womb of human dyspepsias over "i have been wronged, i seek revenge, and i care not over whom."
Most of the world's nations following the usa are doing State Terrorism against China vis a vis Taiwan, which is a province of China. Of course the most active war criminal, genocidal, crimes against humanity, Holocaust doing "nation", ... the usa is also the world's leading State Terrorist against China RE: Taiwan, also Tibet, also usa lies on Tiananmen Square "massacre" which never ever happened.
If the "blue guys" are the occupiers of the "green guys", then the "green guys" have the RIGHT in international law to resist that occupation, including by armed struggle.
Ralph Wilde - a prof at UCL and an expert on international law - has given dozens of quite brilliant talks over the last decade.
Tracing the occupation of Palestine since WWI in the context of what was legal AT THE TIME, Prof Wilde's conclusion is that "Israel" is EXISTENTIALLY illegal: it has no legal right to exist and Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians immediately.
Given the total lack of archaeological evidence for the Old Testament narrative, the Zionists cannot use claims based on the congeries of nonsense to argue against Prof Wilde's analyses. [Palestine was, at all relevant times in the Old Testament timeline, an Egyptian province. The "Exodus" was the equivalent to leaving NY state, going to New Jersey and calling that an 'exodus' from the United States.]
"Say you’ve got a group of blue guys and a group of green guys."
If it was any other country besides Israel I think more people would agree with you. But for some reason lots of people think that Israel is the victim in this because they refuse to look at history.
I told 2 Israel apologists who said there is no evidence that Israel is committing genocide to look at the South African case that laid out the evidence and the court agreed with. One said he didn’t know what I was talking about and the other said that the case was dismissed.
I went on WAPO last night and looked at comments. Went to bed and couldn't sleep. The insanity of the remarks is enough to make one drive a tank through all the commenters.
Hamas this. Hamas that. Hamas needs to be destroyed. Let Israel live in peace.............I try and send these people to substack or alternative news!
In my opinion everyone who is against MSM and who still has an account get on there and refute some of the comments and send them somewhere else. It's the ONLY way to get something done.
I think we previously discussed this - the WaPo readership is too far gone and the Israeli propagandists are well organized and funded. I don't think that battle is winnable or worth the effort. No way to change these "minds".
I wonder how many of them are Zionist bots and how many are real humans... (I stopped reading MSM sources a while ago but occasionally need to reference them every so often).
I couldn't do what you do - those comments would drive me up the wall!
"Don’t Equate The Violence Of The Oppressor With The Violence Of The Oppressed" That's a reality that the masses desperately need to understand!
I consider the results of police brutality with exactly that principle. People oppressed with poverty and oppressed with police brutality and oppressed with racism don't share the same responsibility for acts of violence as the perpetrators of poverty, police brutality and racism.
While violence is always outside my value system, I don't hold the same contempt for the oppressed as the oppressors. I take it as communication. The same thing with Hamas and Oct 7. While that was horrible and I don't condone it, I understand it and pardon it. I don't for Israel's continual and brutal revenge after that. The result of Oct 7 should be a call to the negotiation table, not magnitudes more of the original violence.
The Israeli argument (blue guys) is that the green guys MADE THEM DO IT.
Recall the disgusting quote by Golda Meir?:
"We can forgive [the Arabs] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [the Arabs] when they love their children more than they hate us..."
Question.... What happened so that Israel can bring so much suffering to others? What is it that justifies genocide in the hearts of millions? As a nation, how did its members become agent of genocide, but even more so how can some of its members, Jill Stein for one, Noam Chomsky for another, voice such empathy towards those who are enduring the genocide? What causes the atrocities that are occurring before the eyes of the world?
There are many books one can read on the subject. From a psychological perspective, Carl Jung's book, "The Undiscovered Self" I find of some use attempting to understand the causes behind a mass psychosis of an entire population. Although not everyone agrees with Jung's psychological theories. I find there is quite a bit of truth to be found in his work, although like anyone's work, one needs to judge the good and bad for one's self.
One of Chris Hedges most recent pieces on substack titled, "Joe Biden’s Parting Gift to America Will be Christian Fascism" provides some good details on the origins of how fascism can take hold in a country. Although, his work IMO applies more to the US than Israel. Israel seems to have a brand of fascism whose origin may have been cultivated over decades now with a mixture of sources and motivations.
They have gone on before and those that implement them often feel justified. Nothing knew in human history, especially when one sees the other as less then, and no more then a problem. Isn't that the attitude the US government, epidemics aside, got rid of their Indian problem? I wonder if that's not in the cards for the Palestinians? Not totally gone, just mostly.
Because of Israel's unconditional plan to effectively invade and occupy the entirety of the Gaza Strip, despite what officials may say, the United States has considered an opportunity to give “Tel Aviv” control over offshore natural gas resources, which, by legal rights, belong to the Palestinian state.
On the table for many, many years, I would think
This area, known as “The Gaza Marine,” is home to 1 trillion cubic feet of natural gas resources. Although discovered in 2000, Zionist Israel has never permitted the Palestinian Authority to have access to it, and likewise, the Gaza Strip has long been under an effective maritime and economic blockade, which has prevented it from being developed outside of Israeli control.
Add that to the well known fact that the USA has only 8 years left of oil reserves, known to all but seldom mentioned in the media. The western media stooges know that this is a factor in the US support of Israel’s race to clear all Palestinians off Gaza so that they then have unrestricted “ownership “ of these massive reserves and be a future supply / controller to the USA. That is "all" Palestinians. Mandatory.
Interesting how most of the recent US military exploits have been associated with oil or gas producers, namely Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Syria, their ongoing antagonism against Iran, and nearer to home, Venezuela, coincidentally the largest reserves in the world
One should see Israel with 9 million people being the controller of all future US at 330 million people and their oil and gas supply requirements, being “the only democracy in the Middle East” (nothing more than a CNN fairytale).
Add that to the list of motivations for the staggering military supplies (and money) sent to the genocidists in Israel, not forgetting the Israeli total ownership of all the government activities in the USA as well, Israel’s power base.
So in November when you are voting, American people, remember it really is an election for the future of Israel, not America. Remember that the vote is for the US / Israel Senate and the House of Israeli Representatives, all elected and approved by AIPAC.
Thanks Contrarian. I saw this explained at length on RT on Youtube. The stealing of Global South resources is at the bottom of the neocolonial project.
Someone told me about this, but not in this detail and I didn't pursue it, but how really interesting and significant this is. Do you think this is one of the prime motivations for what is going on now? I haven't heard people discuss this in any detail. I'll look it up further, and thanks for bringing it.
All these years of knowing the extent of the reserves in that part of the world and once known, seeing Israel make a strenuous effort to ensure that nothing progressed......not an inch.
The shareholding is spread between many organisations, as operators .
Just jumped on to the web and plucked one headline story from there.
Here it is.........
Behind Israel's 'end game' for Gaza: Theft of offshore gas ..
There are many others. In fact, there are quite a lot, Fran.
"What happened so that Israel can bring so much suffering to others?" - you can pose exact same question re the US. And since it enables the likes of Israel to do what they do, maybe that's where the question needs to be directed at first and foremost.
An analogy, not unlike Caitlin's; In America we claim to have as Individuals the supposed GOD given (Natural) Right to defend not only ourselves but those we deem to need defending. As such it was codified in the US governments Constitution, many states have recently allowed a larger portion of the American people to defend themselves without buying a permission slip as it is a Natural Right. Even a rabbit will bite if it fears for it's life or is threatened. Yet with this immense power of Guns at our finger tips, the largest amount of crime is in those places that don't allow self defense with proper force against the aggression. On the other hand those employed by the US government go world wide using guns and threats of violence to Invade, loot and control the governments of other people. The first thing any invader does is disarm the population. The GENOCIDE in Gaza is the Direct result of the invasion of the area by force to Install Zionist Apartheid Israel and allow them to steal more land, kill more people, aquire nuclear weapons, all with full consent of UK and US. Israel built the largest Open air Concentration Camp, controls the electric, and water supplies,patrols Palestinian coast, closed Palestinian airport many years ago and built a wall to further cut them off from the world. The Palestinians are in poverty, with zero infrastructure, being systematically starved, and murdered by an ideology of hate hiding behind Religion. They have EVERY RIGHT to Defend against their oppressors. Just as Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, Argentina as well as Donesk, Lugansk, Crimea, Yemen have to defend against the US aggressions via their Ukraine proxy puppet regimes. In America we won't fight for our own freedom from oppression but we will travel the world to oppress others for profit. April 15th Americans will pay tribute at the threat of force so the Empire can continue it's destructive agenda. April 19 1775 is the day the citizens fought back against their government and won. Since that war, no soldier has fought for the freedom of Americans. Only the profit of the BORG.
'Blue people and green people'. I think it's indicative of the decline of our civilisation that something as easy to understand as a straightforward campaign as genocide, needs to be further reduced to simple, childish language and imagery as though it was a kiddies cartoon or bedtime story, in order to help adults to grasp the morality of the situation.
Unfortunately, concepts of morality or justice still elude a majority of said adults.
Hi Dave
It’s been said many times that without Oct. 6, there wouldn’t have been an Oct.7.
Or as Antonio Guterres said: it didn’t happen in a vacuum.
The only thing Hamas did against international law was to take hostages, to exchange for the thousands of Palestinian hostages now held in IsraHelli prisons; men, women and children, held with no charges, tortured and raped. Sometimes you have to break the law a bit; guilty as charged myself 😉
And it’s plain as the nose on Satanyahoo’s face that Israhell was warned repeatedly by both Egypt and its own border soldiers that something was brewing. It’s obvious that Butcher Bibi construed a false-flag in order to seize Gaza and its resources.
Humans are good at avoiding unpleasant facts.
I don't believe Caitlin was writing a dumbed down article for us. She was confirming a fact for everyone. Tools are good : ) In my physical life I like to engage and debate people who respond to keywords : ) When I say Free, Free Palestine at the guard gate, if there is no one behind me occasionally an interesting discussion follows. Of course I'm not yet on campus grounds until I pass the gate ha. You wouldn't think anyone would not support stopping the Genocide and then there is Genocide Joe, a bomb in one hand and a lunch snack in the other. We are in serious trouble. With the u.s. and the u.n. spiraling down the power vacuum. Who will stand against the Genocidal Maniacs of israel? My heroes the people of Yemen and South Africa are not powerful enough yet to save Palestinians. They are dying and will be mass murdered. The only consolation, israel has ended itself economically. Depression sets in being helpless to help. The world is so F ing illogical it's killing all of us. Sorry, I had to speak to a friend, thank you for listening.
Roll steady, talk if you need to.
Cats face them head-on and react accordingly.
Hasbara trolls like to point out that the citizens of Gaza supported Hamas, as though that justifies starving them all to death. My reply is to point out that the French Resistance was widely supported during WWII, why wouldn't the Gaza Resistance get support? (Don't bother adding the resistance movements of other countries like Poland, Romania, etc., most Americans don't know there were any others.) The most coherent responses to that observation I've gotten to that is profanity.
I always like to add Cuba and Che Guevara, that gets'em hot under the collar.
"You can’t equate the violence of the oppressor with the violence of the oppressed. They’re not the same, and the oppressor is the ultimate source of the violence from both sides".
Another golden nugget from Caitlin. The fact that Caitlin has to explain an obvious truth ( with imagery) that the rampaging genocidal violence of Israel cannot be equated with Hamas's retaliation; that there is absolutely no moral equivalence; that whatever violence Hamas is accused of is the cause and effect of the oppression they are subjected to, speaks volumes for the dystopia we live in right now.
Although it's understandable the oppressed rise up and always have, but I'm not going to feel it's okay to kill people. It's just what happens.
I wouldn’t have one single issue with taking the life of someone who dared try to physically oppress me.
But never would I take the life of a living nonhuman creature, since they are vastly superior to Homo sapiens.
I am on your side...might have to shoot a horse if it is hurt? I could do that.
My question really is did Hamas not think of the possibility that Netanyahu and his right wing government would not implement a genocide, or something comparable, especially when Netanyahu could have been in prison by now for his corruption. Did they think it could be a possibility that he would use it to get the one state solution he always wanted? It's not just about wanting to strike back at the abuser, but worrying how far the abuser would go in his retaliation.
Okay,.
I am with you Fran. I am not for taking the life of any being. That's why we find ourselves unable to comprehend the enormity of what's happening to the people of Gaza, while the world is watching. In a saner world there would be non-violence. But that would be asking for an unattainable Utopia.
I'm right there with you, Indu. So much so I'm a fruitarian so even plant beings need not consider me a predator. Simply fruit, seeds and nuts; that's what's on offer from Nature should you want to live off the fat of the land.
There have been plenty of Buddhist kings and dynasties, complete with armies.
To be fair, I am yet to hear of an Amish pirate or a Jain warlord.
If we were all Amish, or Quakers, or Mennonites, this earth just might survive Feral.
Only they’d have to accept non-theists.
Well, the Jains expressly disclaim the existence of a deity.
Didn’t know that, Feral!
Surprising there has been no Jain warlords, given the monks are required to give a vow of chastity.
That's true. I go to Aljzeera, every day and I don't know how this is allowed to continue. I don't believe for one moment they are interested in getting Hamas, and feel it's all about implementing their plan to make Gaza uninhabitable no matter how many men, women, children they kill. I think a lot of people see it that way. An outrageous inhumanity is on full display everyday.
In a war some of the most unlikely people 'kill people.' It is what it is.
:(
I know it happens, and it's normal that people rise up against their abusers, and I am not going to judge them, and I understand why they do. However too often when they do they are slaughtered in great numbers like the people of Nambia and the German genocide 100 years ago that resulted in 10's of thousands of deaths. That's all I meant.
Since the US has never been in a war on their own land how can anyone say how they would behave. When the killing starts there is a sort of hysteria that happens and many unlikely people are swept along. I have seen it.
quibble--the US has seen three wars here: the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the Civil War. But these were all long ago.
Are you kidding me Jenny? In some Southern states they’re STILL fighting the Civil War!
Even up here I occasionally see Confederate flags 🙄
I know but recently I was reading about the genocide in Nambia, I understand how the oppressed would rise up, normal, but the retaliatory response was horrendous in that they killed all of them, some 90 thousand or more.
Fran, there are many instances in history where the oppressed have risen up (regardless of the odds of success or 20/20 hindsight cost/benefit analysis that you expect/assume the oppressed to do) against the oppressors.
Here are two books/resources I suggest that will answer your questions (or at least give you the background to understand) about your concerns/reasoning behind Hamas' actions:
(1) As described by Frantz Fanon in his book "The Wretched of the Earth" - his first chapter "On Violence" goes into depth on the psychology involved (and the consequences) of using violence by the oppressed. (Examples: Algeria, Warsaw Ghetto, Black slave uprisings and rebellions, and hundreds of other such actions taken by the oppressed throughout history).
(2) Frantz Fanon - "Alienation and Freedom" which describes the psychology of armed resistance to colonization in African countries. The French massacre of 45,000 Algerians IN A SINGLE DAY (May 8, 1945) is one example of the unfolding logic of armed struggle, resistance, and violence against the oppressor. (https://www.trtafrika.com/africa/algerians-remember-french-massacre-of-45000-compatriots-13156640)
My guess is that you seem to be struggling with the post-hoc consequences of Hamas' actions (which I believe are nowhere near an endgame scenario at this precise moment in the Gaza genocide) and moral evaluations of right/wrong and trade-offs and maybe what-if scenarios. When contemplating action choices, it is easy for anyone to be beset by hindsight bias - i.e. knowing what we know now maybe we would have made different decisions. But at the time of point of action, no one really knows for sure how things will unfold, or what all the cause-and-effect relationships of the multitude of decisions and variables will be. This kind of probability analysis (that is easier to perform after the event has occurred & given the passage of time) is extremely challenging to do when events are actually unfolding - due to the complexity and unpredictability and randomness of life, society, nation states, ephemeral relationships between variables, level of knowledge possessed at the time by the parties/groups involved etc.
I hope I'm making sense.
I certainly can understand the oppressed rising up against the oppressor, but I sometimes wonder did Hamas expect this kind of retaliatory response? Netanyahu with nothing to lose is unpredictable, so did Hamas know a genocide might be in the cards? That has always bothered me. They certainly knew he and his Likud party knew of their plans, and knew they were simply dismissed. They no doubt knew Egypt warned Israel only days before that an attack was imminent. Ignored. Why? I would be very suspicious of that. I would wonder does he want this to happen, will he use it as his end game, a genocide? They certainly must have known the US couldn't be trusted not to come to Israel's defense, and assist her in carrying out this carnage. Everything going on in the West Bank tells you that Israel not only doesn't want a two state solution, but wants the Palestinians gone one way or another. I also know there is no other alternative to change things. I don't really know what Hamas thought would happen maybe others have a better idea.
Same reason the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto launched the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
It's not that i don't understand that people are going to fight back, I do, but the retaliatory response in regard Israel and other's who are abusive, like Germany in Nambia there is such overkill it's hard to stomach. Just wondering what Hamas thought the response would be. Did they think it would be on this level? Did they think they would use it to implement so much death and destruction? It's especially true when you know how little Israel and it's people give a damn about the lives of Palestinians. There is a question there. I know their lives were bad, but they had their families, their schools, their homes, their hospitals. Now maybe nothing.
One could have said the same thing about the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto. Their backs were to the wall, literally and figuratively.
As odious as the Nazi regime was, we didn't see German families picknicking by the Ghetto Wall to watch snipers pick off peaceful protesters the way Israeli families did.
I was thinking more in terms of whether Hamas ever thought about the degree of retaliatory response. I would be worried about that since you have an extreme right wing government in place and a man, Netanyahu who would use it as an opportunity to implement a genocide and get the one state solution he always wanted, which also buys him time. Just wandering what Hamas thought would be the response. It's something to consider.
I suspect that they knew that their backs were to the wall, and it is not as if Israel made any secret of its ultimate aim.
Framing a question that communicates the Israeli propaganda is a bad faith tactic. You do this crap all the time. I refer specifically to this, which Israeli's use to blame and discredit Hamas: (they openly say they intentionally kill civilians to convince them to blame Hamas, not Israel):
"did Hamas expect this kind of retaliatory response?"
You also repeatedly do this crap all the time.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are verbally abusive, You don't just disagree, but put me down first, so stay away from me. Also you don't just disagree with people but your narcissism is always on full display with others, as well, and unless they adopt your perspective you go into what I perceive to be little more then a childish rant. Take you pathology elsewhere.
It was happening already Fran in small increments.
Assuming that i s r a e l wasn't in on oct 7.
I wonder about -
the lack of IDF for 7 hours on oct 7
the lack of sirens on Lahaina, they had the perfect siren system, it was a source of pride
the "standing-down" of the cops at uvalde
the absence of a NORAD response on 9/11
Some things are allowed to happen, or made to happen.
I always thought the Israeli's were forewarned. Several days before the attack Egypt warned them of an impending attack. also suspicious behavior by Hamas was reported by those monitoring Gaza, but they were ignored. The government had the detailed plans Hamas was going to implement, and they said they were too difficult for them to carry out and dismissed them, and although they provide excuses for the long delay before they responded on Oct, 7, that also seems suspicious. Hamas hit some 20 towns before any response, and Israeli forces were very slow in assisting those who were at the festival and I read some are suing due to their delayed response. Netanyahu's jail bait, so implementing this genocide buys him time and his long held dream. Contrarian 33 put up a good post on the Gaza Marine which also makes things look more suspicious.
This is a really good question. I'd give it 90% odds Mossad knew what was coming and stood down at the least, if not actively assisting them--they needed Oct 7 to justify everything since, in which they engage in a horrific genocide, the purpose of which is to force other countries to take in the survivors, to ethnically cleanse Gaza. But why did Hamas do something sure to bring on horrific violence from Israel? I've equated it with the way, when I was a big kid, my big brothers would dominate me and my sisters--I knew they would always win a physical fight but occasionally out of frustration I would fight back anyway. And likely there were infiltrators pushing the plan forward.
To me it just made sense and I didn't believe Israel would simply brush it off, especially the warning from Egypt, and they did have their plans. I t also buys Netanyahu time to carry out an agenda he always wanted, a one state solution, and time out of jail. if he is convicted the charges could put there. No one ever brings this up and I wonder why, a set up. Let it happen, don't respond for a long time, greater damages, so a genocidal response and he has the support of the Israeli people.
I saw allegations/speculations of this within a week of Oct 7. It wasn't mentioned but I already knew about the gas fields off Gaza--I read that Israel was willing to make a deal with PA but didn't want to have to give any money to Hamas. Recently I read that they also have plans to dig a new canal, to compete with the Suez, which would run along the north side of Gaza. But they have kindof a tightrope to walk--they set up Oct 7 to justify the genocide to follow, but now they have to display a sufficiently horrific level of violence to push an unwilling Egypt--or somebody-- to permanently take in a million or more refugees, but without quite--well, looks like that has been harder than they expected, they still have no takers and they have an ICJ case against them, they've had to get their US lackeys to veto Security Counsel resolutions three times; western government have scarcely slackened their support but are all under siege from their own populations--Israel will pay a price for this, and it looks like the only way they'll fully clean out the Gazans is to kill them all.
Mary Wildfire I have a lot of unanswered questions in my head that were there since October 7. Israel was forewarned but ignored those warnings, and their response time was so slow Hamas hit 20 towns, and of course there were accusations against Hamas that were simply not true, like they raped women, and killed babies. The implementation of Israel's genocidal rampage didn't surprise me because everything that was going on in the West Bank said they are going to have a one state solution, which is something Netanyahu always wanted as did Hamas. Netanyahu was up on corruption charges and last year could have been his last year since he was already making court appearances in 2023. Israel's response to any attacks has always been over the top, and I just wonder what Hamas expected and a result of their assault. The US is disgusting in their response to all this and they just asked Trump and he just gave an off handed response and doesn't give a damn, and damn him. So many people I know are really against what Israel is doing even though through decades they have been silent on this issue, but not now. I hope Israel pays a very big price for her genocidal attacks, and to think she was given another's land because of such attacks on the Jewish population makes it more disgusting.
they thought the israelis were normal, good and reasonable people who would negotiate.
😂
Martin not if you read how the Israeli's have treated them since 1948.
"Supporting mass murder because of your religion is not a legitimate position to have."
This message really needs to get through to many mainstream Protestant denominations. They seem to think they can have it both ways--kiss up to Zionist interests and preach "Love your neighbor" at the same time. Mass murder is evil. It's contradictory to the loving your neighbor. You'd think even the dimmest bulb in the box could figure that out.
The weird thing RC, is that mainstream protestants don't really like jews. They ( protestants) only want the Temple Mount rebuilt to presage the return of the christ, at which time they will be raptured up to heaven to sit with their god, whilst the jews being heathen non-believers, will be left behind to face damnation. I wouldn't be happy to get that sort of "support" from people around me.
It's so sick. The C and J variants of zionism rabidly support each other to hasten the eventuality that would, according to their respective views, ensure the other's destruction.
A lot of it is wanting to show that they are not like in The Bad Old Days.
"You'd think even the dimmest bulb in the box could figure that out." MMMMm ??? Not so sure about that...
I think this puts you over Caitlin's red line: (or should I have played the same game you were just a player in: "Does this comment violate Caitlin's directive?")
".the Talmud says goyim need to be killed."
Yeah, unfortunately facts cross Caitlin’s red line, as evidenced by her terse responses to Che, Domelord, and others.
Inconvenient truths have no home here, and neither do those who believe in the free exchange of ideas.
I have never observed any of her targets for censorship engaging in calls for harm to anyone.
I see people asking legitimate questions, and citing relevant sources of information.
That’s allowed concerning every group but one.
“The author” has no problem tarring whole groups of people, including democrats and Americans, to name but two.
But, there is one group/mindset that can never be questioned or criticized.
Why is that?
As far as the Talmud is concerned, Che didn’t make this shit up.
We both know that.
But, here, people aren’t allowed to speak about it?
And, just to keep it real, the Talmud was written long before Zionism came along, so equating one with the other is complete bullshit.
But, that’s right, we can’t talk about that here.
You would probably be well advised not to respond to this.
Don’t want you to cross any red lines.
Well, I've been around the clock and lived in UK and Europe and Canada and parts of USA, east west coast, Mexico, Vietnam. The pint is the Jews and Israelis and Goyim I've worked with and called friends who have set foot in Israel all said they went to the Holy Land where they wanted to expect he Jewish religion,ba Jewish country, Jewish food, Jewish people, Jewish culture, Jewish security, Jewish entertainment, Jewish beaches, Jewish hotels, Jewish tourist events, Jewish places of worship, Jewish politics, Jewish education, Jewish technology, Jewish military parades, Jewish schools, Jewish ways.
Never, 'I just came back from Zionist Palestine where I soaked myself in Zionist life and met amazing Zionists." Nope. It was and still is all about Judaism, Jews, Talmudic laws, and Jewish pride, supremacy, elitism, control."
Mothership Israel is Mothership Judaism, and nothing to do with something they use to cover up their true blue roots. Jews are controlling Israel, not Baptiste or Catholics or Adventists or Witnesses.
It's all about Judaism and shekels and Benjamins.
see my reply to gypsy
Facts are facts, Bill.
If Che leaves, so do I.
"Facts"? I saw none to support Che's claim.
I know nothing about the Talmud so Googled and found this, which makes any "fact" claim complete bullshit:
https://images.shulcloud.com/618/uploads/PDFs/Divrei_Torah/160615-Response%20to%20anti-semitic%20distortions%20of%20the%20Talmud.pdf
"The Talmud has been a favorite target of antisemites for at least a
millennium. They take quotes out of context, truncate them, even
fabricate them, never mention it may be just one rabbi's opinion, and
never mention what Jewish law or Jewish practice actually is.
They do this to make Jews look bad and stir up hatred against them.
Let's take a look at some of these “charges” and answer them
properly, particularly because these lies have been proliferating
exponentially on the Internet.
2-Claim: Jews may kill Gentiles at will.
Proof: The Talmud says:
Rabbi Shim'on ben Yochai taught: [Even] the good among the Gentiles
must be killed. [Tov shebe goyyim harog] [Sofrim 15:10]
Answer: He meant in time of war."
The context is then presented (I clipped it here).
So, it seems that we have an interpretive question not a "fact" question.
As I've previously noted, extraordinary claims (like Che's) require extraordinary documented support, i.e. evidence (and none was even offered, never mid provided).
I don’t se how you became well versed in the Talmud, seeing as you weren’t previously aware of it, and just googled it.
Domelord presented facts concerning the makeup of “semites” and was given insulting, short shrift, from “the author”.
Fact, Jewish support for the Palestinian genocide, while not universal, is overwhelming, wouldn’t you agree?
Google it for yourself.
TicTok is a good resource for observing this ideology, almost firsthand.
When I look at the totality of objective evidence right in front of my eyes, for decades and decades, and decades, I come to the almost inescapable conclusion that there is something seriously sick with the mindset of many, probably most, Jewdiast practitioners.
Not all, Bill.
Hell, there have even been a tiny number of republicans that I have agreed with, so no cult is completely hopeless.
But, I’m having a difficult time pinning down exactly what a Jew is.
Seriously.
Is it a religion, or a race, ethnicity, culture, tribe, a club, a cult, an excuse, or just some made up bullshit.
Are we all god’s children, or aren’t we?
Some are better than others?
Chosen?
Pure?
Segregated?
Racist?
I thought that we figured out a long time ago that blood is distinguishable by type, and not by the “type” of person it came out of.
Too much looking at people as “the other” instead of as family.
And, I don’t think that we can progress by shutting down conversation/communication.
That would seem to just send everyone to their respective corners, waiting for the bell to ring, so they can come out fightin’.
We’re proving that we’re pretty good at that.
And, this TicTok banning is just another example.
Pittin’ people against each other.
Unfortunately, it seems to STILL be working.
Like I said, I know nothing about the Talmud, but I can smell the wafts of antisemitism.
Ironic, I agree with some of your criticism, e.g. a few days ago I posted comments here taking exception to Caitlin's prohibition on anything regarding jews as jewish. But I linked my criticism directly to the statements of Israeli officials that justified the Genocide and Zionism based on jewish or Biblical bases. That is NOT antisemitic as it is not my opinion and the religious dimensions are directly linked to the motivations for Genocide.
In contrast, some broad brush unsubstantiated opinion (Che and the precursor to his, for Turcot?) that attacks Judaism and Talmud as a religion per se is bullshit and antisemitic. The text and link I posted was a reply to those who insisted that such bullshit was a "fact".
Well said bill wolfe!
I acknowledged ignorance of Talmud.
But if you read what I did post, it cited EXACTLY the quote you offer and said it was taken out of context because the context was killing during war. The other 2 quotes you offer in no way support your original claim. 57 is basically an eye for an eye for view of justice and 58 is merely excessive retaliation, not the "goy" targeted per se false claim you initially made. Reading really is fundamental.
"If Che leaves, so do I." - OH NO !!!!
Make sure you exchange direct messages with "Ernesto Che". He's been enjoying your licking his ass and will appreciate you continue doing so 😉🤣💋
Supporting mass murder…there is no legitimate reason! I’m ashamed of Biden, Congress, Americans who do ignorantly or deliberately support Blue Israel’s deliberate murder of Green Palestinians.
Well, groups of people are protesting in the streets of America and many people I know are against this genocide, and people are resenting Biden's complicity in this. Unfortunately many Americans know their voice and opposition means nothing in this country. Biden is sending in food with one hand with bombs in the other. Look how stupid they think we are?
When Africans decapitate and dismember human beings with machetes, they are "savages". When Westerners decapitate and dismember human being (and crush them under concrete) using bombs, they "have advanced armaments"
Somehow, I wish I knew how, oppressors have to go because they just cause more hate and more oppression. I just keep talking and disagreeing with everyone who says so and so is that way because they are.......choose an ethnicity, a religion, a skin colour. I object all the time. But so far, it has not changed the world.
nor will it, susan. not ever. the suppressors and oppressors are w/ us forever and always have been. they seem to be spawned from a progenitive fountainhead that has been inculcated w/ 'hatred for the other'. by whom? by their mothers? by their fathers? by their teachers? by the bullies on their childhood playgrounds who were manumitted to disdain, diminish, and victimize them, such that as adults they have sedulously clawed their way to sufficient power-structures whence they can seek revenge? all this hatred begins in the womb of human dyspepsias over "i have been wronged, i seek revenge, and i care not over whom."
Most of the world's nations following the usa are doing State Terrorism against China vis a vis Taiwan, which is a province of China. Of course the most active war criminal, genocidal, crimes against humanity, Holocaust doing "nation", ... the usa is also the world's leading State Terrorist against China RE: Taiwan, also Tibet, also usa lies on Tiananmen Square "massacre" which never ever happened.
If the "blue guys" are the occupiers of the "green guys", then the "green guys" have the RIGHT in international law to resist that occupation, including by armed struggle.
Ralph Wilde - a prof at UCL and an expert on international law - has given dozens of quite brilliant talks over the last decade.
Tracing the occupation of Palestine since WWI in the context of what was legal AT THE TIME, Prof Wilde's conclusion is that "Israel" is EXISTENTIALLY illegal: it has no legal right to exist and Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians immediately.
Given the total lack of archaeological evidence for the Old Testament narrative, the Zionists cannot use claims based on the congeries of nonsense to argue against Prof Wilde's analyses. [Palestine was, at all relevant times in the Old Testament timeline, an Egyptian province. The "Exodus" was the equivalent to leaving NY state, going to New Jersey and calling that an 'exodus' from the United States.]
"Say you’ve got a group of blue guys and a group of green guys."
If it was any other country besides Israel I think more people would agree with you. But for some reason lots of people think that Israel is the victim in this because they refuse to look at history.
I told 2 Israel apologists who said there is no evidence that Israel is committing genocide to look at the South African case that laid out the evidence and the court agreed with. One said he didn’t know what I was talking about and the other said that the case was dismissed.
Stop hanging with stupid people.
I’m not hanging with anyone. They replied to my comment.
I don't think my comment was meant for you. My mistake.
We are not winning the fight against Israel.
I went on WAPO last night and looked at comments. Went to bed and couldn't sleep. The insanity of the remarks is enough to make one drive a tank through all the commenters.
Hamas this. Hamas that. Hamas needs to be destroyed. Let Israel live in peace.............I try and send these people to substack or alternative news!
In my opinion everyone who is against MSM and who still has an account get on there and refute some of the comments and send them somewhere else. It's the ONLY way to get something done.
I think we previously discussed this - the WaPo readership is too far gone and the Israeli propagandists are well organized and funded. I don't think that battle is winnable or worth the effort. No way to change these "minds".
I wonder how many of them are Zionist bots and how many are real humans... (I stopped reading MSM sources a while ago but occasionally need to reference them every so often).
I couldn't do what you do - those comments would drive me up the wall!
"Don’t Equate The Violence Of The Oppressor With The Violence Of The Oppressed" That's a reality that the masses desperately need to understand!
I consider the results of police brutality with exactly that principle. People oppressed with poverty and oppressed with police brutality and oppressed with racism don't share the same responsibility for acts of violence as the perpetrators of poverty, police brutality and racism.
While violence is always outside my value system, I don't hold the same contempt for the oppressed as the oppressors. I take it as communication. The same thing with Hamas and Oct 7. While that was horrible and I don't condone it, I understand it and pardon it. I don't for Israel's continual and brutal revenge after that. The result of Oct 7 should be a call to the negotiation table, not magnitudes more of the original violence.
The Israeli argument (blue guys) is that the green guys MADE THEM DO IT.
Recall the disgusting quote by Golda Meir?:
"We can forgive [the Arabs] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [the Arabs] when they love their children more than they hate us..."
Dana Fucking Jewish Only, Zionist Always, Israel First BUSH?
Edward Bernays' proteges, the lot of them. Evil like Eddy and his cancer stick promotions.
My friend from down under, in Brisbane, FYI.
Aussies are as fucked as the Yanquis. Apologies!
https://paulokirk.substack.com/p/down-under-the-pigs-are-pure-iof
Question.... What happened so that Israel can bring so much suffering to others? What is it that justifies genocide in the hearts of millions? As a nation, how did its members become agent of genocide, but even more so how can some of its members, Jill Stein for one, Noam Chomsky for another, voice such empathy towards those who are enduring the genocide? What causes the atrocities that are occurring before the eyes of the world?
I don't have answers, does anyone?
Money and land.
Attrocities are caused by hysteria of the people by the people.
There are many books one can read on the subject. From a psychological perspective, Carl Jung's book, "The Undiscovered Self" I find of some use attempting to understand the causes behind a mass psychosis of an entire population. Although not everyone agrees with Jung's psychological theories. I find there is quite a bit of truth to be found in his work, although like anyone's work, one needs to judge the good and bad for one's self.
One of Chris Hedges most recent pieces on substack titled, "Joe Biden’s Parting Gift to America Will be Christian Fascism" provides some good details on the origins of how fascism can take hold in a country. Although, his work IMO applies more to the US than Israel. Israel seems to have a brand of fascism whose origin may have been cultivated over decades now with a mixture of sources and motivations.
They have gone on before and those that implement them often feel justified. Nothing knew in human history, especially when one sees the other as less then, and no more then a problem. Isn't that the attitude the US government, epidemics aside, got rid of their Indian problem? I wonder if that's not in the cards for the Palestinians? Not totally gone, just mostly.
Palestinians totally gone? Another reason......
Because of Israel's unconditional plan to effectively invade and occupy the entirety of the Gaza Strip, despite what officials may say, the United States has considered an opportunity to give “Tel Aviv” control over offshore natural gas resources, which, by legal rights, belong to the Palestinian state.
On the table for many, many years, I would think
This area, known as “The Gaza Marine,” is home to 1 trillion cubic feet of natural gas resources. Although discovered in 2000, Zionist Israel has never permitted the Palestinian Authority to have access to it, and likewise, the Gaza Strip has long been under an effective maritime and economic blockade, which has prevented it from being developed outside of Israeli control.
Add that to the well known fact that the USA has only 8 years left of oil reserves, known to all but seldom mentioned in the media. The western media stooges know that this is a factor in the US support of Israel’s race to clear all Palestinians off Gaza so that they then have unrestricted “ownership “ of these massive reserves and be a future supply / controller to the USA. That is "all" Palestinians. Mandatory.
Interesting how most of the recent US military exploits have been associated with oil or gas producers, namely Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Syria, their ongoing antagonism against Iran, and nearer to home, Venezuela, coincidentally the largest reserves in the world
One should see Israel with 9 million people being the controller of all future US at 330 million people and their oil and gas supply requirements, being “the only democracy in the Middle East” (nothing more than a CNN fairytale).
Add that to the list of motivations for the staggering military supplies (and money) sent to the genocidists in Israel, not forgetting the Israeli total ownership of all the government activities in the USA as well, Israel’s power base.
So in November when you are voting, American people, remember it really is an election for the future of Israel, not America. Remember that the vote is for the US / Israel Senate and the House of Israeli Representatives, all elected and approved by AIPAC.
Thanks Contrarian. I saw this explained at length on RT on Youtube. The stealing of Global South resources is at the bottom of the neocolonial project.
Someone told me about this, but not in this detail and I didn't pursue it, but how really interesting and significant this is. Do you think this is one of the prime motivations for what is going on now? I haven't heard people discuss this in any detail. I'll look it up further, and thanks for bringing it.
All these years of knowing the extent of the reserves in that part of the world and once known, seeing Israel make a strenuous effort to ensure that nothing progressed......not an inch.
The shareholding is spread between many organisations, as operators .
Just jumped on to the web and plucked one headline story from there.
Here it is.........
Behind Israel's 'end game' for Gaza: Theft of offshore gas ..
There are many others. In fact, there are quite a lot, Fran.
Someone else sent me this. Thanks, I know very interesting.
"What happened so that Israel can bring so much suffering to others?" - you can pose exact same question re the US. And since it enables the likes of Israel to do what they do, maybe that's where the question needs to be directed at first and foremost.
An analogy, not unlike Caitlin's; In America we claim to have as Individuals the supposed GOD given (Natural) Right to defend not only ourselves but those we deem to need defending. As such it was codified in the US governments Constitution, many states have recently allowed a larger portion of the American people to defend themselves without buying a permission slip as it is a Natural Right. Even a rabbit will bite if it fears for it's life or is threatened. Yet with this immense power of Guns at our finger tips, the largest amount of crime is in those places that don't allow self defense with proper force against the aggression. On the other hand those employed by the US government go world wide using guns and threats of violence to Invade, loot and control the governments of other people. The first thing any invader does is disarm the population. The GENOCIDE in Gaza is the Direct result of the invasion of the area by force to Install Zionist Apartheid Israel and allow them to steal more land, kill more people, aquire nuclear weapons, all with full consent of UK and US. Israel built the largest Open air Concentration Camp, controls the electric, and water supplies,patrols Palestinian coast, closed Palestinian airport many years ago and built a wall to further cut them off from the world. The Palestinians are in poverty, with zero infrastructure, being systematically starved, and murdered by an ideology of hate hiding behind Religion. They have EVERY RIGHT to Defend against their oppressors. Just as Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, Argentina as well as Donesk, Lugansk, Crimea, Yemen have to defend against the US aggressions via their Ukraine proxy puppet regimes. In America we won't fight for our own freedom from oppression but we will travel the world to oppress others for profit. April 15th Americans will pay tribute at the threat of force so the Empire can continue it's destructive agenda. April 19 1775 is the day the citizens fought back against their government and won. Since that war, no soldier has fought for the freedom of Americans. Only the profit of the BORG.
Thank you Caitlin🙏