This Tuesday will mark 32 years since the Rwanda genocide, so many liberal outlets will come out with their pre-written articles about how terrible it all was in hindsight.
The Western liberals in power (when it mattered) said explicitly then that we shouldn't get involved there because it wasn't in our 'national interest'. That is the difference between them and us. We want to help people, they will decide with consultants whether helping people is worth it or not.
It has always been that way, at least during my lifetime.
I personally interviewed a Rwandan survivor refugee, and it was way, way, waaay worse than you can possibly imagine.
Actually, France hatched the genocide plan because the Tutsi were sitting on all the valuable minerals and refusing to allow France to destroy their environment by mining it. All the radios that were used for propaganda, all the pangas and other weapons were imported from France.
But don't think the UK and US were unfeeling about this catastrophe! Indeed not. They waited for the rivers of blood to slightly dry, and then punished France by kicking them out, and taking over Rwanda themselves as the "post" colonial powers.
So these weren't "liberals" actually watching on, they were the typical white supremacist fascists who control the Western countries.
Oh dear. Did people actually BELIEVE we are "liberal societies"? Only as long as the ruling classes power is unchallenged...
Did you do the interview for a media outlet, or something else? If its available online I will check it out.
The French have always been despicable throughout Africa, even the aftermath of the genocide - under French control - where they helped Hutu killers flee and launch attacks across the Congolese border. It is disgusting on so many levels. And, like you pointed to, the lives of human beings were considered less than the strategic control over mineral deposits.
No, as it happens she joined a course I was on, and the "interview" was over some chats as I walked her home a few times (She later dated and married one of my close friends, who was also on the course).
So none of it was recorded... it would be another decade before phones could be used to record such off-the-cuff moments.
Naturally, she was biassed in her story with regards to the Hutu (Who were already unhappy with the racial-apartheid division of wealth and land in the country, unsurprisingly), but her facts on the French role fit with everything that had come out, or was unexplained.
True. There was white South Africa, white Australia just two examples that I could never understand when these countries had black people living there for centuries before the white man decided to exploit their mineral wealth, not forgetting gold, silver, coal and diamonds.
Not only that theft but the disgusting treatments of the indigenous people because they were seen as low on the human chain. Just because a people chose to live a civil life, not chasing the next big win, or money and things greed did not make them inferior to those with pale skin. Yes they did have their fights, no way we can look down on them for that, look what these whites have and still are doing; for greed.
Yet, trace where we all came from and our DNA shows we all are descended from an African woman, many, many thousands of years ago. A woman who left Africa and whose offspring founded the human race -- one woman whose genes we all still have - one woman out of Africa, the mother of us all.
No matter how you see it apartheid and racism are on the ugly side of humanity. All of us no matter our race or religion are innocent in this. We all, at some stage in our lives have been guilty of some form of this. Some of us evolved above this. Most did not. The Hutu Zulu wars in Africa were not the result of white meddling any more than European wars of conquest or Asian wars of conquest were engineered by outsiders. We are all human and I suspect that some genetic flaw prevents most of us from perceiving others as the same species. How else could you explain our egregious behaviour to our fellow man? So few of us have the gift of being able to turn the other cheek. I sometimes fear that this genetic flaw will be the downfall of humanity.
Thanks im glad i happened to read this. I didnt know much about it, but now i finally feel like i know something way more important then all the kill porn that the media presented in those days.
She herself only survived because her schoolteacher, a Hutu, refused to allow the armed militias into the class - at the risk of their own life.
Another thing she mentioned you might be interested in - once the US/UK took over, *everything* changed in the country. The airline flights became BA, even the uniforms became British standard. Colonialism in full effect.
Needless to say, nothing actually improved for the Africans themselves, only the language and origin of their external exploiters.
By 32 years past, they had been bought out by the ruling elite, so they had to make up a story of rationalization in order to live with themselves, and probably also to keep the "liberal" vote, even though their plebian constituents came to matter less to them over time.
The U.S. administration under Bill Clinton avoided involvement.
But so did:
Conservative governments elsewhere
The UN broadly
Most of the international community
This was a systemic failure of states, not a partisan ideology acting alone.
You’re right to call out hypocrisy after the fact
You’re wrong to pin it cleanly on “liberals vs. us”
The real story is worse:
When genocide isn’t tied to strategic interest, states—left, right, or otherwise—often stall, hedge, or look away."
The Democrats (liberals in general) of the Clinton era are not the liberals of today...so attacking people for hypocrisy 30 yrs ago today is dishonest. Today, among Democrats, 77% view Israel as committing genocide and even the hesitant Democrats are shifting to blaming Israel, as the vote in the Senate on the Sanders bill to stop arming Israel (27 Dems for, 17 oppoised) shows. It is highly like with 3/4 of Democrats calling out genocide that Democratic politicians will not align.
Bullshit! When team Biden was in there, NOT A PEEP about funding death and destruction all over the world including the ongoing genocide. The current Democratic Party is the same as the Clinton led one. All performative. Covertly fascist, Trump is their dream come true to give them political cover to achieve their fascistic agenda. One party
My liberal friends have a blind spot. It’s ok if Billy raped little girls with his Epstein club but oh…million white woman marches for abortion rights because their liberal heroes (propagandists) told them that’s most important and ignore everything else. I’m not blind, but I do hate when activists are blinded or fooled by political tribalism
Republicans fear their far right base. Democrats abuse and gaslight their far left base.
And the "far left" base of Democrats is not even far left - it is simply the Left. Since the Democratic party sold out to the oligarchs and their billion dollar Wallstreet corporations decades ago.
The recent march of 8 million was anti-fascist and anti-war. I doubt you have many liberal friends since you seem to hate them and direct your anger at them instead of the fascists they were out protesting.
I have dear friends that I love and family I’d die for that are liberals. I bet I’d like you too, Dale. I don’t hate anyone except baby killers and war criminals
I have criticized not Caitlin but the foolish notion that attacking liberals in an era of increasing fascism is wise; I hold it to be foolish and helping the fascists by dividing the anti-fascist coalition. I see these attacks as emotional and irrational. As in WWII, it was the liberal West and the Communist USSR teaming up to defeat the fascists. It's a strategic alliance to defeat a greater evil. Any arguments that divide the liberals and the left benefit the greater evil. Please deal with the argument and do not stoop to ad hominem fallacies.
- Universal Healthcare in America (FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL BY LIBERAL DEMOCRATS) couldn't even get a public option under Obama. Couldn't even get a vote on the floor under Nancy Pelosi
- Military Spending. Voted in by Democratic LIBERAL party without fail. Now at a trillion dollars a year and still being approved.
- Increasing tax Breaks for the Rich? ABSOLUTELY approved and made permanent by LIBERAL democratic party.
- Sucking the cock of Israel year after year? Supporting a Genocide full throatedly under Joe Biden. Without a qualm, LIBERAL democratic party
- Betraying the American ordinary working class by interfering and blocking Union Strikes - from Joe Biden's Railroad workers injunction, to the refusal of party to do jack shit with Nurses in Wisconsin: your LIBERAL democratic party
- Legalizing stock trading and open bribery in the halls of Washington DC, where there is now 16 Lobbyists for every public servant politician in DC. LIBERAL democrats love the money in DC. Hell, half of them are multi-millionaires now. Obama as soon as he left office was making 400K speeches, and now lives in Martha's Vineyard
- Pushing false propaganda upon the American people, such as pushing the RussiaGate Hoax upon the American people for years with Rachel Maddow and other deep state propaganda outlets: fully supported by LIBERAL democrats
- Sabotaging any efforts by extremely popular Left politicians, such as the remarkable campaign of Bernie Sanders who garnered the support of ordinary Americans in a fashion not seen by the corrupt LIBERAL democratic party since Roosevelt - making sure no true LEFT candidate gains a leading role in the party - but instead we're left with Chuck Schumer and the rest of bought off corporate Democrats to this day
-Bailing out Wallstreet instead of Mainstreet under Obama, during the Occupy Wallstreet campaign that Obama did whatever he could to subvert: LIBERAL DEMOCRATS
- Bill Clinton gutting the Welfare system in the US and destroying the manufacturing base with NAFTA. These are the LIBERAL democrats Dale wants you to worship
What's not to love about LIBERAL DEMOCRATS folks? You got Dale Ruff here trying to gaslight Caitlin and others as if the LIBERAL DEMOCRATS really are here for you. What a load of shit.
The times they are a changin......I don't gaslight. I am a gadfly that exposes lies. I am not a liberal, not even a Democrat but I know that only liberals and leftists working together can stop the genocidce and wars and defeat the fascists, just as in WWII> even Karl Marx said that even communists should work with liberals on common goals. I welcome your civil criticism but pity you for resorting to personal attacks and gutter talk.
Power lasts long after leaving office. Hillary and Bill Clinton are still incredibly powerful: in the media, education system, influencing the party direction, think tanks/foundations etc... Most of them people were politically active until they died, and their legacies passed on to the current crop.
the current Democrats are stuck in the past but if Biden, Schumer, and Jeffrey's don't make that clear, I don't know what I can say.
Very true, so many former politicians do not retire gracefully, they hang around like a bad smell 🤢 thinking they are still important. And Drumpf is doing his best already to cheat the system, made to stop any one person getting too much power, and trying to get a third term. All the mess he's making to keep out of prison when the Epstein files are released and it is proven what a despicable letch he has always been, and so much worse that even he wants it hidden.
The Clinton's are toast, Biden is gone, Schumer is on the way out along with Jeffreys. A new generation, mentored by Sanders, is rising to replace them. Lend a hand or get out of the way. With 77% of Democratic voters believing Israel is committing genocide, how many running for office will be willing to stand against them? Of the 5 most approved politicians (per polls) in the US today, 3 are democratic socialists (Sanders #1, AOC #3, and Mamdani #5) and nearly 2/3 of the Democratic voters prefer socialism to capitalism. For those Rip Van Winkles who think we are back in the Clinton era of moving to the right, wake up! The times they are a changin and you can either deny it or lend a hand. The Sanders bill to ban arming Israel (ending genocide__ whjich has gone from 2% of the Dem vote to 65% last year) is coming up again. Do you want to oppose it?
The Clinton's are still massive power brokers, Biden was president a year and a half ago, the others still lead the party and represent outdated views. Earlier you made it sound like all these points of comparison were irrelevant but I'm just seeing more evidence they all relevant
Old guard on the way out, while Sanders iss presenting his bill that got majority Dem support last time to stop shipping arms to Israel this next week. Do you support it or not?
Sanders has been in Congress how long? Anyway, you may recall how Team D was all against the genocide in Yemen, only to flip, once that genocide was Biden's.
I'm all in favor, but let's not kid ourselves, it's just performative. And you refused to answer my question regarding whether you'd support a genuine antiwar Team R candidate vs a Team D warmonger.
The U.S. played an enormous role for the lack of a U.N. response though. They refused to even use the word genocide for well into the second half of the 100 days. If the U.S. declared a genocide was taking place, the rest of the world would have followed and acted according to the genocide convention, in my view. So the Liberal ideology was crucial and exposed (as it has always touted human rights). Though I agree it wasn't limited to just liberals. The most powerful government on the planet just happened to be a liberal one.
As far as I can see it's all one big giant game the various countries representatives pre plan at their precious Bilderberg meetings, they probably all hate each other's guts if the truth be told, even though what you say is true.
Clinton's are the "NICE" type of Imperialists for the vassals, FF.
They leave scraps for the other powers, paint over the atrocities with nice sounding words for the cameras, and practise smiling... in epstein island mirrors.
I mean, I agree, but they are considered by most people to be liberals. The Starmer government where I live in the U.K. and the new Labour movement is considered Liberal too, though it has committed genocide in Gaza, supported the genocide in Sudan, and is helping the U.s. and Israel take over the whole Middle East (though they're finding it harder than expected, clearly), and demonising migrants. I guess you're referring to the technical meaning, I'm referring to the sort of cultural meaning.
Jordan, parsing such propaganda is WHY people go to college to learn the actual terms and what they actually mean.
Are we at the point yet where Trump can also be called "Liberal"?
Or Hitler. Heck, perhaps even Stalin.
When terminology becomes so loose, it becomes absolutely meaningless except as dog-whistles.
The Kid Starver regime should actually be called a "Socialist" regime, according to the Party blurb, - does that fit?
It can get confusing because OVERALL Western countries are called "Liberal democracies" - ie, the elements that make up a working democracy, are the Liberal values. So "Liberalism" is baked into the pie - and politicians will not admit they have every intention of undermining those democratic systems from within. So they pretend, hide, and claim they are "Liberals" when thay are OVERTLY fucking FASCISTS - if indeed not outright Nazis.
And the Corporate media is perfectly happy to keep up this illusion, because they are all in cahoots.
The college system welcomes the Clintons. I think hillary literally teaches university courses in that system. So I don't think they teach that the Clinton family are nazis or even conservatives
I will respond, even though I know I'm arguing with AI 🤣
The U.S. has/had enough power to spearhead and coordinate an international response to genocide. This is a fact. The U.N. is beholden to the U.S. (look at its response to Gaza ffs).
If the Clinton administration used the term when the red Cross and those on the ground used it (in the first few days and weeks), many lives would have been saved. I agree earlier that the U.S. isn't the only responsibility actor, of course the killers themselves, the French, and other nations played important roles. But the U.S. would have initiated a response and reduced the death toll drastically if it acted, as a world leader or state that genuinely cared about these issues. Here is a good article if you want more details:
You are arguing with the messenger based on primary sources. I don't disagree with the point the US could have with an earlier response had signficant influence, only the claim, which while not AI lacks primary sources to support (AI comes with primary sources; that is its strengths, often dismissed by those who provide no source at all!) that the world would have have acted." When the US did respond, the world barely acted. I will note the article you link to uses the term "genocidal denial" to condemn Clinton (whom I also condemn) in a dishonest way:
" . “Genocide denial” isn’t quite accurate
Holocaust denial = claiming the genocide didn’t happen
What the U.S. did was closer to:
evasion
semantic hedging
delay in acknowledgment
They weren’t saying:
“This isn’t happening”
They were saying:
“We’re not prepared to formally label it yet” And this because a formal label of genocide would require certain actions the US was not willing yet to take, so it spoke of "acts of genocide," hedging the issue. I find this shameful but the article overstates the crime.
What matters today is not what Clinton did 30 years ago but supporting the Sanders bill to ban shipment of arms to Israel, which last year got 2/3 of Dems on board, and now coming up for a vote again, will likely gain momentum. What matters is to support this effort to build a strong majority to stop the genocide ongoing in Gaza.
Both the Republican party and Democratic party lost relevance with ordinary Americans since Citizen's United.
Both parties represent only the very rich in the US. Neither party has passed any legislation for ordinary Americans of any note now for decades.
You might as well believe in Peter Pan, if you believe any dramatic change will occur at all with the next US election cycle. Breaking News: it ain't going to happen.
AI hallucinates, gets things wrong, doesn't have critical thinking abilities, and doesn't just use primary sources (unless forums like reddit count as primary sources)
Clinton was hardly a liberal (except on some domestic issues): "Bill Clinton moved the Democratic Party to the center—often termed "Third Way" or "New Democrat"—to regain electoral power in the 1990s, adopting fiscally conservative, pro-business policies while keeping progressive views on social issues. While he was a Democrat, he is generally considered a moderate or centrist, not a traditional progressive liberal.
Move to the Right (Moderate Shift): Clinton championed welfare reform ("ending welfare as we know it"), tough-on-crime legislation (1994 Crime Bill), and deregulation of financial sectors, which were traditionally conservative areas." Nor is he in power today. Today we see real progressives like Sanders, Khana, and other democratic socialists rising to power replacing the old guard.
The use of political rhetoric that pigeonholes ways of thinking into some sort of birds- of- a-feather packages are impressive, but do they really convey what people are capable of?
The rhetoric in your comments are truly impressive for those who are immersed in political arenas, but in the final analysis, do they truly reflect the conditions that have prevailed?
I cannot answer your question, tho I sense it is sincere, because it so vague. What conditions that have prevailed limit my "rhetoric?" And their is no final analysis because things are changing fast with a public that two years ago was 90% behind Israel now disapproving and 77% of Democratic voters calling out genocide and the socialist/progressive wing of the party rising to power. And Trump now trapped in a quagmire of his own making (prompted by Netanyahu) that will lead to a shift in power in the November elections. We are watching a river, not a pond. Things are changing rapidly and our discourse must reveal that fact.
You write: “Things are changing rapidly”, no offence and I do agree somewhat, but for thousands of children who were slaughtered in the Gaza genocide, things didn’t change fast enough, with both Democrats and Republicans officially supporting the genocide .
In black and white parlance, I would ban all political parties , period.
Still going on really, the war against Iran was a good excuse to close border crossings into Gaza, and of course the usual daily killings of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank even if not in huge numbers.
I think what I am trying to convey is that sometimes we get lost in the translation of words. Words can entrap as well as liberate ideas.
For example, you stated that 77% of Democratic voters call out genocide who favor the socialist/progressive wing… for someone who is not familiar with political jargon, like myself, I like to believe what Greta Thunberg labels “ empty words”. .
In essence, isn’t the voting part of a democracy, which simply means the majority rules? In that sense, aren’t Republicans and Democrats all democratic voters?
I think what I am trying to point out is that the two parties to which you are referring mirror the gist of Greta Thunberg’s words, nothing more.
Were you not alive during the Civil Right Act, where liberals threw their southern base into the hands of the Republicans, in order to pass the Act? This was not comfort but sacrificing a pillar of their power. Are you not aware that democratic socialist Bernie Sandes whose bill to ban shippng arms to Israel, which got 2/3 of Dems on board last year is coming up for another vote soon, the same Bernie Sanders who said of the victory of Trump: "The Democratic Party abandoned the working class, and so the working class abandoned the Democratic Party" ?? The party is now in the process of returning to its New Deal roots in being the party of the working class, and while success is not guaranteed, trashing those seeking to make this transformation guarnatees it will fail. If you want to stop genocide in Gaza, one of the most effective things you coud do is let your Senator know you will not vote for him if he opposes the Sanders bill. And let anyone know that trashes Sanders they are unwitting assets of AIPAC, which is also trashing him for calling out genocide and since 1988, promoting conditioning aid to Israel on its treatment of the Palestinians and now at full throttle. Lend a hand, or get out of the way: change is coming and you can be part of it or help it fail.
Liberals are comfortable with the status quo. They want some changes but none that would benefit the majority, just enough it helps them stay in their comfort zone.
You don't think Medicare, Social Security and expanded healthcare benefit the majority? Liberals do not push radical change but without them, there would have been no change at all, not Civil Right Act, no Voting Rights Act, no vote to ban shipping arms to Israel, etc. Without cooperation between liberals and leftists, nothing would have changed and nothing will change. If you have an alternative, what is it?
Funny, Dale talking about Social Security, an Act that occurred in 1935 under Roosevelt (90 years ago). And pretends the Democratic party is the same as it was then. What have these fucks really done of any significance - since then for the American people? Other than the 1960s Civil Rights Act?
This is the kind of phony Liberal shit the real Left in the US now has had to put up with for decades. This kind of gaslighting. Caitlin and others calling out the endemic corruption in the Democratic party and the Liberals who support it - but Caitlin then is the "crazy" one.
It's like a cotton farm plantation owner coming out and telling his slaves: if it weren't for him, they wouldn't have their huts to live in, or the breadcrumbs of food on their table. Their slavery would be even worse! Meanwhile, every year the Plantation is making record profits in the billions soon to be trillions. And the slaves are being whipped even more (and raped).
Dale praises the Social Security Act of 1935, passed 90 years ago as an example of democrat probity and devotion, but at the same time insists that the democrats and liberals of Clinton's time, well within living memory, have nothing to do with the Team D of today, even though they're superdelegates. Even Obama might as well be ancient history.
Hell, a few years ago, goodthink liberals and democrats railed against Trump’s genocide in Yemen - only to flip, the moment that genocide became Biden's genocide.
2F as we all well know, there is no fundamental difference between Ds and Rs. Both serve the same zionist master and both are utterly disgusting anti-human perversions.
the Democratic Party shifted to the center after FDR, but listen to what Truman said: "Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
Socialism is what they called public power. Socialism is what they called social security.
Socialism is what they called farm price supports.
Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.
Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan "Down With Socialism" on the banner of his "great crusade," that is really not what he means at all.
What he really means is "Down with Progress--down with Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal," and "down with Harry Truman's fair Deal." That's all he means." 1952.
Then the Democrats threw their southern Dixicrat base under the bus to vote for the Civil Right Act. ceding them to the Republicans.
The drift right was under Clinton, and the drift now is to the left. The old guard is very unpopular, and of the top 5 most approved US active politicians, #1, #3, and #5 are democratic socialists and $4 is a radical progressive. A strong majority of Dem voters now prefer socialism to capitalism, and as our poet laureate sings:
"Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
Keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Might be later to win
For the times they are a changin'" So, as I always say, either lend a hand or get out of the way, for the wheel's still in spin.....
Well the Dem vote was 27 to stop shipping arms, 17 to continue.....by my reckoning that is a robust majority and up from 15 the previous vote. The Sanders bill i coming up for a vote again and again most Democrats will vote to stop arming Israel. "Majority Of Democrats Buck Chuck Schumer In Failed Vote To Restrict Weapons Sales To Israel. Schumer is no longer the leader of the Party..he is toast.
As for Jeffires, he is not in the Senate and did not vote and he is now promoting a 2 state solution, bucking Netanyahus total opposition to Palestinian independence.
Bernie is "controlled resistance". He is a liberal zionist but a zionist nonetheless. Jeffries was "allowed" to say "2 state solution" because 80% or so of the people of Israhell are in total opposition to Palestinian independence. Saying so will not hurt nor stop them but it might help him politically is all.
The concept of calling those leading the charge for change "controlled resistance" is promoted by those seeking to discredit the struggle for change. If Sanders, working on banning arms to Israel, a wealth tax on billionaires, universal health care, and free college is discredited, that collapses the efforts to achieve these goals. Labels do not define a man like Sanders but are used to try to wound him, something AIPAC must be paying you to do.
You must not understand Bernie is a Liberal Zionist, self proclaimed even. Bernie just funnels the progressive energy for those changes back into the corporate dems arena. When they have had control just like the republicans do now, all 3 branches, did they codify voting rights when they could have easily? Did they codify abortion? Did they do anything for healthcare? Yeah, they talked about it to get elected. AIPAC controls the dem party including bernie and aoc. I am guessing you believe the corporate liberal dems winning the midterms will save the US.
All you liberal haters also hate blacks, Latin people, women and fun. You are miserly, miserable people who like to enslave, not enlighten. And you cannot use us women as you wish. You guys are bigots in favor of rich people only. We all know you hate the poor as you’ve taken away everything from them. Including food stamps and medical insurance.
When the House Committee on Impeachment of Nixon brought charges prior to Tricky Dick's resignation, it concentrated on things specific to Nixon's behavior, not policies fundamental to the outrages of all US presidents. Throw out the rotten apples but save the barrel. This is the liberal philosophy: the system's fine. Just change the party, the individuals, but keep the insane policies; no problem with 'Murica.
Americans always focus on the individual and not the corrupt system. As the saying goes dont knock the system. The predatory capitalist system is sacred and any criticism of it will get you labeled communist or worse.
For those in the U.S. who support the D's and say "Just wait til the Mid terms" I say Fuck you, fuck the R's and Fuck the Zionists. One more thing this Easter. Fucking cancel Israel and it's supporters. I almost sound Presidential.
I've known which side of this binary I am on, for 50 years. It is an intrinsic feeling that makes you feel like you are always swimming upstream against a strong current. Without constant vigilance, I can find myself floating downstream with the current of neoliberalism and resting in the eddies of the democratic politics here in the US. Its Caitlin and groups like this, that pull me out of the eddies and push on.
Well done for publishing and saying - Peace be upon you by Gaza and Jerusalem - Honour and victory are the allies of the axis of resistance and its allies, and humiliation and shame are for the axis of evil, Epstein Class (USA, Britain, France, Turkey, Qatar, UAE, NATO Governments, Zionist and Israel) and its allies.
Is the world not better off without people who commit genocide, steal people's land, houses, and starve them to death? Oh wait. Is that antisemitic? Oh well...🖕!
Yes, I agree with you. If we are truly wanting to resist we also have to see that WE and Israel are the two most powerful interlopers in this world. We don’t come from the land we are occupying. Other nations, including Iran, have strong old cultures, morals and integrity they live by. We don’t abide by anything but our own power, the racist propaganda we have always learned as truth, and the want, want, want of everything. WE must change. (Thank you for your work. I will support you when I can)
My ancestors come from this land. Yours may not. But more importantly we all need to get to the point where we realize that all humans come from all land, that Earth is home and not some make-belief mythologized politically demarcated subsection of it.
It's funny how commenters in this section (Dale Ruff mostly, some others), through their arguments, make Caitlin's point so perfectly. It's funny how Caitlin can be exactly correct on the subject of anti-imperialist actions vs people who sit around and talk all the time but don't do anything to change the world--the do nothing folks will always launch into the Dem vs Repub argument as some sort of weird knee jerk reaction--it's almost robotic. They're completely stuck. They don't get it at all. They don't know what imperialism is. They also don't know what capitalism is.
We love Pope Leo. Brave man. Man of high integrity. Pope Leo is unafraid of the orange freak' and his reptilian smirking fascist sycophants. Loathe the Pentagon greaser alcoholic drunk fascist,PH, and his demented perverted repellent Vile use of God's name to justify his illegal amoral immoral war mongering and cowardice. PH is a lying POS drunken coward. The drunken greaser pig fits in very well with the rest of the orange freak's repellent fascist cabinet team. Amerikan puppets and thugs get out of Iran. Stop murdering innocent unarmed civilians. No more wars on behalf of the Nazi fascists in issreehell
"Liberal" and "Conservative" are just words of convenience in politics. I for one am neither. I believe strongly in family values and loyalty . I believe strongly that it is our duty to learn to accept all people for their personal beliefs and lifestyles I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks any group should be promoted to promote the political concept of "diversity" . We are all people with the same needs and desires. none of us have the right to impose our beliefs on others. It is enough to explain your opinions to others and let them decide for themselves whether they wish to believe as you do. Any form of force in imposing your beliefs on others is inherently evil. Violence only begets violence. the only justification for violence is if you or your loved once are physically threatened. This includes open war, manipulated food shortages and criminal activity of others. It does not include the fear that your neighbour may wish you harm if there is no actual physical transgression. The history of Western "culture is one that violates every facet of love and decency. We must all learn to love one another or there will soon be no one left to love. I wish everybody peace and increased understanding of those whose beliefs and cultures differ from ours. It is the only way..
I support every word you have written. I am neither liberal, anti imperialist, conservative, democratic, or any label about anything those in power deliberately bring in to separate people into groups, I am just me. I disagree with any labels about anything at all. If people don't realize that when they apply a label about anything, whether it's about beliefs, generation labels, any label at all. The minute a person uses a label about anything, they have fallen into the trap those who would control us have laid.
They can label me a boomer, an anti this or anti that, as belonging to a certain group of any kind and prove they haven't really discovered the game being played on them. This doesn't mean they are good or bad people, it only means they have realized the truth about some things and still have more to learn. We are all individuals living together where unfortunately there are people who wish to control us and unless we want the kind of world you describe, we doom ourselves.
Yes that realization was a rude awakening for me! As long as the status quo remained, the dems in particular were happy just blaming the reps! And nothing ever changed!
More blame games without defining what is meant by liberals, as 8 million hit the streets to protest fascism and war a week ago. This is getting tiresome. Only an alliance of liberals and leftists can take down the fascists; dividing them with attacks on liberals instead of the fascists is something the fascists love.
"Marx advocated working with liberals in specific, tactical scenarios, despite his fundamental critique of liberalism as a capitalist ideology. He believed in forming coalitions with progressive liberals to defeat reactionary, feudal, or conservative forces and to achieve democratic reforms that could pave the way for socialist transformation."
"No Kings" Parades - pretty much the same Anti-Trump (Anti-Republican) movement we've gotten now from the "Lesser of Two Evils" Democratic party for decades. Being Anti-Trump translates into Democratic party doing jack shit for the next 8 years. Then a billionaire demagogue even worst then Trump will get voted in.
Meanwhile, psychotic, off the chart funding still continues for Israel and the MIC.
Once upon a time, the Vietnamese radicalised the 'Left' in America and they went on protest marches and Joan Baez and Bruce Springsteen,Patti Smith and others sang their hearts out.
Today Gaza, and Iran hitting back at the empire has radicalised the 'Left' and they marched in their thousands and the same singers took to the stage. Somewhat old and tired - I mean the whole story is old and tired. Nothing changed then! Will anything change now?!
Exactly. The nauseatingly tone-deaf “No Kings” shit, which comes straight down from D party messaging operatives and couldn’t be less organic, is actually the perfect
illustration of the difference between liberals and actual activists
They called it "democracy with donuts". What a joke. Blind lunatics lacking any self-awarness. A global mega-tsunami is coming, and these Ds are contemplating how much longer should they stay on the beach.
I was in the Civil rights Movement, marched with Dr King in Selma, Wash DC. A protesst is a march, a gathering, a parade or as the fascists call it, a clown car. What matter is 8 million people showed up to show resistance to fascism and war...calling it names, leave that for the enemy.
Just over a week ago, as Trump was waiting for the people of Iran to gather in protest and overthrow the regime, in fact Iran rallied behind the country and th people rising up were in the US, 8 millon strong, yes some tiresome liberal old guards showing up but 8 million is a signal that Trump heard loud and clear (a few days later he fired Bondi). I am sick of people arguing over labels: what counts is what you do ...and the largest protest in history can be mocked by hecklers on the sideline but it is a historical event that signals clearly that Americans do not want Trump, do not want ICE, do not want war. Those mocking the million with the balls to show up sit in their chairs clicking on the keyboard, doing the work of the fascists by mocking the historic protests and dividing the anti-fascist elements. When 300,000 showed up in DC to hear Dr. King in his I Have a Dream rally , many on the poser left ridiculed it as a "parade," but after 300 yrs of legalized racial injustice, the Civil Right Act passed within a few months. So I repeat: if you can't lend a hand, get out of the way...lndependents, liberals, progressives, and leftist all made their presence felt in no uncertain terms, while being insulted both by the fake far left and the far right just as the women suffragettes were, just as Dr. King was....just as all who fight for change are attacked by those who want to stop them on the right an, sadly, those on the armchair left who see a historic protest as "a parade." haha.
Did the protests stop the Iraq War? Did the massive protests after Trump won in ‘16 do anything to stop him?
I’ve been to every No Kings, even though I know they are performative theater. Bull Connor and his fire hoses and dogs made the Civil Rights Act possible, just as much as the I Have A Dream Rally, because it began to pull back the racist curtain for people on the fence and on their couches, and began to form a coalition amongst liberals and working class independents/conservatives sufficient to get legislation passed. That’s what is missing with No Kings.
That’s what you liberals who expect the Democratic Party to save us don’t get; Trump is just a symptom of institutional rot, and a Democratic Party of corporate-owned whores will not save us, it will just pave the way for a further solidification of the corporate coup which has already taken place.
Quit worrying about forming a coalition with the left. You’ll never get that until you form the more important coalition with voters on the right, those who voted for Trump out of desperation, and a desire for change from a corrupt system of capitalism that is crushing them. Build the FDR working class coalition, and then the left will help push you where we need to go.
You can’t build that coalition with No Kings and Save Democracy messaging, and yes, parades. It will come when the elected Democrats, writ large, ‘welcome the hatred’ of monied interests. Put simply, when No Kings morphs into No Billionaires. That’s when parade turns into protest.
This Tuesday will mark 32 years since the Rwanda genocide, so many liberal outlets will come out with their pre-written articles about how terrible it all was in hindsight.
The Western liberals in power (when it mattered) said explicitly then that we shouldn't get involved there because it wasn't in our 'national interest'. That is the difference between them and us. We want to help people, they will decide with consultants whether helping people is worth it or not.
It has always been that way, at least during my lifetime.
I personally interviewed a Rwandan survivor refugee, and it was way, way, waaay worse than you can possibly imagine.
Actually, France hatched the genocide plan because the Tutsi were sitting on all the valuable minerals and refusing to allow France to destroy their environment by mining it. All the radios that were used for propaganda, all the pangas and other weapons were imported from France.
But don't think the UK and US were unfeeling about this catastrophe! Indeed not. They waited for the rivers of blood to slightly dry, and then punished France by kicking them out, and taking over Rwanda themselves as the "post" colonial powers.
So these weren't "liberals" actually watching on, they were the typical white supremacist fascists who control the Western countries.
Oh dear. Did people actually BELIEVE we are "liberal societies"? Only as long as the ruling classes power is unchallenged...
Thank you for the additional info.
Did you do the interview for a media outlet, or something else? If its available online I will check it out.
The French have always been despicable throughout Africa, even the aftermath of the genocide - under French control - where they helped Hutu killers flee and launch attacks across the Congolese border. It is disgusting on so many levels. And, like you pointed to, the lives of human beings were considered less than the strategic control over mineral deposits.
No, as it happens she joined a course I was on, and the "interview" was over some chats as I walked her home a few times (She later dated and married one of my close friends, who was also on the course).
So none of it was recorded... it would be another decade before phones could be used to record such off-the-cuff moments.
Naturally, she was biassed in her story with regards to the Hutu (Who were already unhappy with the racial-apartheid division of wealth and land in the country, unsurprisingly), but her facts on the French role fit with everything that had come out, or was unexplained.
Name one European power that has not practiced this protocol. They are all guilty.
True. There was white South Africa, white Australia just two examples that I could never understand when these countries had black people living there for centuries before the white man decided to exploit their mineral wealth, not forgetting gold, silver, coal and diamonds.
Not only that theft but the disgusting treatments of the indigenous people because they were seen as low on the human chain. Just because a people chose to live a civil life, not chasing the next big win, or money and things greed did not make them inferior to those with pale skin. Yes they did have their fights, no way we can look down on them for that, look what these whites have and still are doing; for greed.
Yet, trace where we all came from and our DNA shows we all are descended from an African woman, many, many thousands of years ago. A woman who left Africa and whose offspring founded the human race -- one woman whose genes we all still have - one woman out of Africa, the mother of us all.
No matter how you see it apartheid and racism are on the ugly side of humanity. All of us no matter our race or religion are innocent in this. We all, at some stage in our lives have been guilty of some form of this. Some of us evolved above this. Most did not. The Hutu Zulu wars in Africa were not the result of white meddling any more than European wars of conquest or Asian wars of conquest were engineered by outsiders. We are all human and I suspect that some genetic flaw prevents most of us from perceiving others as the same species. How else could you explain our egregious behaviour to our fellow man? So few of us have the gift of being able to turn the other cheek. I sometimes fear that this genetic flaw will be the downfall of humanity.
I can't see what your message was a response to (either my app is playing up or is confused by the thread and side conversations)
But I definitely don't think other European nations are good on these issues.
Name one Country that has not followed that protocol!
The French were despicable during WW2 when the Nazi’s invaded and France just let them invade and worked for them during the war.
Thanks im glad i happened to read this. I didnt know much about it, but now i finally feel like i know something way more important then all the kill porn that the media presented in those days.
She herself only survived because her schoolteacher, a Hutu, refused to allow the armed militias into the class - at the risk of their own life.
Another thing she mentioned you might be interested in - once the US/UK took over, *everything* changed in the country. The airline flights became BA, even the uniforms became British standard. Colonialism in full effect.
Needless to say, nothing actually improved for the Africans themselves, only the language and origin of their external exploiters.
...typical how our western system still behaves.
Even on the local level i can see this behaviour.
Its a bureaucratic control mechanism.
By 32 years past, they had been bought out by the ruling elite, so they had to make up a story of rationalization in order to live with themselves, and probably also to keep the "liberal" vote, even though their plebian constituents came to matter less to them over time.
"This wasn’t a uniquely “liberal” failure.
The U.S. administration under Bill Clinton avoided involvement.
But so did:
Conservative governments elsewhere
The UN broadly
Most of the international community
This was a systemic failure of states, not a partisan ideology acting alone.
You’re right to call out hypocrisy after the fact
You’re wrong to pin it cleanly on “liberals vs. us”
The real story is worse:
When genocide isn’t tied to strategic interest, states—left, right, or otherwise—often stall, hedge, or look away."
The Democrats (liberals in general) of the Clinton era are not the liberals of today...so attacking people for hypocrisy 30 yrs ago today is dishonest. Today, among Democrats, 77% view Israel as committing genocide and even the hesitant Democrats are shifting to blaming Israel, as the vote in the Senate on the Sanders bill to stop arming Israel (27 Dems for, 17 oppoised) shows. It is highly like with 3/4 of Democrats calling out genocide that Democratic politicians will not align.
Bullshit! When team Biden was in there, NOT A PEEP about funding death and destruction all over the world including the ongoing genocide. The current Democratic Party is the same as the Clinton led one. All performative. Covertly fascist, Trump is their dream come true to give them political cover to achieve their fascistic agenda. One party
You are a real sicko. Must be from the south.
Blind hatred is not only bad analysis but bad strategy. It is also a personal disaster for you.
My liberal friends have a blind spot. It’s ok if Billy raped little girls with his Epstein club but oh…million white woman marches for abortion rights because their liberal heroes (propagandists) told them that’s most important and ignore everything else. I’m not blind, but I do hate when activists are blinded or fooled by political tribalism
Republicans fear their far right base. Democrats abuse and gaslight their far left base.
And the "far left" base of Democrats is not even far left - it is simply the Left. Since the Democratic party sold out to the oligarchs and their billion dollar Wallstreet corporations decades ago.
The recent march of 8 million was anti-fascist and anti-war. I doubt you have many liberal friends since you seem to hate them and direct your anger at them instead of the fascists they were out protesting.
I have dear friends that I love and family I’d die for that are liberals. I bet I’d like you too, Dale. I don’t hate anyone except baby killers and war criminals
Dale's response to any criticisms made of him, after he comes out attacking Caitlin's essay. You're the problem, not him.
I have criticized not Caitlin but the foolish notion that attacking liberals in an era of increasing fascism is wise; I hold it to be foolish and helping the fascists by dividing the anti-fascist coalition. I see these attacks as emotional and irrational. As in WWII, it was the liberal West and the Communist USSR teaming up to defeat the fascists. It's a strategic alliance to defeat a greater evil. Any arguments that divide the liberals and the left benefit the greater evil. Please deal with the argument and do not stoop to ad hominem fallacies.
Caitlin shouldn't attack liberals who supported Israel and their Genocide in GAZA?
Go fuck yourself.
Those people 30 years ago are also overwhelmingly powerful today. Its almost the same people running the U.S.
"Almost none of the top decision-makers from the 1990s are in power today.
Core leadership during the Rwanda era (mid-1990s)
Bill Clinton — long out of office
Madeleine Albright — deceased
Warren Christopher — deceased
Anthony Lake — no longer in government
None of the top-tier officials who made Rwanda-era decisions are currently running U.S. policy.
The closest thing to continuity
A few figures from that broader era remained active for decades, but even they are now largely out:
Joe Biden — recently in power but not today (2026)
Hillary Clinton — no current office"
- Universal Healthcare in America (FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL BY LIBERAL DEMOCRATS) couldn't even get a public option under Obama. Couldn't even get a vote on the floor under Nancy Pelosi
- Military Spending. Voted in by Democratic LIBERAL party without fail. Now at a trillion dollars a year and still being approved.
- Increasing tax Breaks for the Rich? ABSOLUTELY approved and made permanent by LIBERAL democratic party.
- Sucking the cock of Israel year after year? Supporting a Genocide full throatedly under Joe Biden. Without a qualm, LIBERAL democratic party
- Betraying the American ordinary working class by interfering and blocking Union Strikes - from Joe Biden's Railroad workers injunction, to the refusal of party to do jack shit with Nurses in Wisconsin: your LIBERAL democratic party
- Legalizing stock trading and open bribery in the halls of Washington DC, where there is now 16 Lobbyists for every public servant politician in DC. LIBERAL democrats love the money in DC. Hell, half of them are multi-millionaires now. Obama as soon as he left office was making 400K speeches, and now lives in Martha's Vineyard
- Pushing false propaganda upon the American people, such as pushing the RussiaGate Hoax upon the American people for years with Rachel Maddow and other deep state propaganda outlets: fully supported by LIBERAL democrats
- Sabotaging any efforts by extremely popular Left politicians, such as the remarkable campaign of Bernie Sanders who garnered the support of ordinary Americans in a fashion not seen by the corrupt LIBERAL democratic party since Roosevelt - making sure no true LEFT candidate gains a leading role in the party - but instead we're left with Chuck Schumer and the rest of bought off corporate Democrats to this day
-Bailing out Wallstreet instead of Mainstreet under Obama, during the Occupy Wallstreet campaign that Obama did whatever he could to subvert: LIBERAL DEMOCRATS
- Bill Clinton gutting the Welfare system in the US and destroying the manufacturing base with NAFTA. These are the LIBERAL democrats Dale wants you to worship
What's not to love about LIBERAL DEMOCRATS folks? You got Dale Ruff here trying to gaslight Caitlin and others as if the LIBERAL DEMOCRATS really are here for you. What a load of shit.
The times they are a changin......I don't gaslight. I am a gadfly that exposes lies. I am not a liberal, not even a Democrat but I know that only liberals and leftists working together can stop the genocidce and wars and defeat the fascists, just as in WWII> even Karl Marx said that even communists should work with liberals on common goals. I welcome your civil criticism but pity you for resorting to personal attacks and gutter talk.
LOL
You don't gaslight ...
Power lasts long after leaving office. Hillary and Bill Clinton are still incredibly powerful: in the media, education system, influencing the party direction, think tanks/foundations etc... Most of them people were politically active until they died, and their legacies passed on to the current crop.
the current Democrats are stuck in the past but if Biden, Schumer, and Jeffrey's don't make that clear, I don't know what I can say.
Jordan, How about the Clinton Foundation and Haiti ?
Very true, so many former politicians do not retire gracefully, they hang around like a bad smell 🤢 thinking they are still important. And Drumpf is doing his best already to cheat the system, made to stop any one person getting too much power, and trying to get a third term. All the mess he's making to keep out of prison when the Epstein files are released and it is proven what a despicable letch he has always been, and so much worse that even he wants it hidden.
The Clinton's are toast, Biden is gone, Schumer is on the way out along with Jeffreys. A new generation, mentored by Sanders, is rising to replace them. Lend a hand or get out of the way. With 77% of Democratic voters believing Israel is committing genocide, how many running for office will be willing to stand against them? Of the 5 most approved politicians (per polls) in the US today, 3 are democratic socialists (Sanders #1, AOC #3, and Mamdani #5) and nearly 2/3 of the Democratic voters prefer socialism to capitalism. For those Rip Van Winkles who think we are back in the Clinton era of moving to the right, wake up! The times they are a changin and you can either deny it or lend a hand. The Sanders bill to ban arming Israel (ending genocide__ whjich has gone from 2% of the Dem vote to 65% last year) is coming up again. Do you want to oppose it?
The Clinton's are still massive power brokers, Biden was president a year and a half ago, the others still lead the party and represent outdated views. Earlier you made it sound like all these points of comparison were irrelevant but I'm just seeing more evidence they all relevant
I believe in Peter Pan! I do, I do!!
Pelosi? Schumer? Sanders?
Old guard on the way out, while Sanders iss presenting his bill that got majority Dem support last time to stop shipping arms to Israel this next week. Do you support it or not?
What took them so long, Dale.
Sanders has been in Congress how long? Anyway, you may recall how Team D was all against the genocide in Yemen, only to flip, once that genocide was Biden's.
I'm all in favor, but let's not kid ourselves, it's just performative. And you refused to answer my question regarding whether you'd support a genuine antiwar Team R candidate vs a Team D warmonger.
The U.S. played an enormous role for the lack of a U.N. response though. They refused to even use the word genocide for well into the second half of the 100 days. If the U.S. declared a genocide was taking place, the rest of the world would have followed and acted according to the genocide convention, in my view. So the Liberal ideology was crucial and exposed (as it has always touted human rights). Though I agree it wasn't limited to just liberals. The most powerful government on the planet just happened to be a liberal one.
Clintons = "LIBERAL"?!?!
Pretty sure if you mapped them onto any European analysis of Politics, they would come out barely short of far-right - if short of that at all.
Calling those two scum "Liberal" is like saying that "Neoliberalism must be liberal".
Just typical Southern racists, Imperialists, supremacists, corrupt to the bone, and very, VERY, right-wing.
Despicable as the Clintons were and are, Team D and the european catamites swooned over them and continue to do so.
You can bet your last euro, if the Fat Boy or his wife were made president today, europe and Team D would be all in for the genocide.
Same could be said for Obama, even more so.
As far as I can see it's all one big giant game the various countries representatives pre plan at their precious Bilderberg meetings, they probably all hate each other's guts if the truth be told, even though what you say is true.
Clinton's are the "NICE" type of Imperialists for the vassals, FF.
They leave scraps for the other powers, paint over the atrocities with nice sounding words for the cameras, and practise smiling... in epstein island mirrors.
Murdering children is okay, as long as you don't misgender the poor dears, which would be intolerable.
Clinton is not President starting wars: Trump is.
I mean, I agree, but they are considered by most people to be liberals. The Starmer government where I live in the U.K. and the new Labour movement is considered Liberal too, though it has committed genocide in Gaza, supported the genocide in Sudan, and is helping the U.s. and Israel take over the whole Middle East (though they're finding it harder than expected, clearly), and demonising migrants. I guess you're referring to the technical meaning, I'm referring to the sort of cultural meaning.
Jordan, parsing such propaganda is WHY people go to college to learn the actual terms and what they actually mean.
Are we at the point yet where Trump can also be called "Liberal"?
Or Hitler. Heck, perhaps even Stalin.
When terminology becomes so loose, it becomes absolutely meaningless except as dog-whistles.
The Kid Starver regime should actually be called a "Socialist" regime, according to the Party blurb, - does that fit?
It can get confusing because OVERALL Western countries are called "Liberal democracies" - ie, the elements that make up a working democracy, are the Liberal values. So "Liberalism" is baked into the pie - and politicians will not admit they have every intention of undermining those democratic systems from within. So they pretend, hide, and claim they are "Liberals" when thay are OVERTLY fucking FASCISTS - if indeed not outright Nazis.
And the Corporate media is perfectly happy to keep up this illusion, because they are all in cahoots.
The college system welcomes the Clintons. I think hillary literally teaches university courses in that system. So I don't think they teach that the Clinton family are nazis or even conservatives
Well said!
"If the U.S. said genocide, the world would have acted”
"That’s the weakest link.
The Genocide Convention doesn’t automatically force intervention—it obligates states to act, but how is vague.
Even after the U.S. began acknowledging “acts of genocide,”
→ there was still no rapid intervention."
I will respond, even though I know I'm arguing with AI 🤣
The U.S. has/had enough power to spearhead and coordinate an international response to genocide. This is a fact. The U.N. is beholden to the U.S. (look at its response to Gaza ffs).
If the Clinton administration used the term when the red Cross and those on the ground used it (in the first few days and weeks), many lives would have been saved. I agree earlier that the U.S. isn't the only responsibility actor, of course the killers themselves, the French, and other nations played important roles. But the U.S. would have initiated a response and reduced the death toll drastically if it acted, as a world leader or state that genuinely cared about these issues. Here is a good article if you want more details:
https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2016/05/bill-clintons-shameful-genocide-denial
You are arguing with the messenger based on primary sources. I don't disagree with the point the US could have with an earlier response had signficant influence, only the claim, which while not AI lacks primary sources to support (AI comes with primary sources; that is its strengths, often dismissed by those who provide no source at all!) that the world would have have acted." When the US did respond, the world barely acted. I will note the article you link to uses the term "genocidal denial" to condemn Clinton (whom I also condemn) in a dishonest way:
" . “Genocide denial” isn’t quite accurate
Holocaust denial = claiming the genocide didn’t happen
What the U.S. did was closer to:
evasion
semantic hedging
delay in acknowledgment
They weren’t saying:
“This isn’t happening”
They were saying:
“We’re not prepared to formally label it yet” And this because a formal label of genocide would require certain actions the US was not willing yet to take, so it spoke of "acts of genocide," hedging the issue. I find this shameful but the article overstates the crime.
What matters today is not what Clinton did 30 years ago but supporting the Sanders bill to ban shipment of arms to Israel, which last year got 2/3 of Dems on board, and now coming up for a vote again, will likely gain momentum. What matters is to support this effort to build a strong majority to stop the genocide ongoing in Gaza.
Both the Republican party and Democratic party lost relevance with ordinary Americans since Citizen's United.
Both parties represent only the very rich in the US. Neither party has passed any legislation for ordinary Americans of any note now for decades.
You might as well believe in Peter Pan, if you believe any dramatic change will occur at all with the next US election cycle. Breaking News: it ain't going to happen.
AI hallucinates, gets things wrong, doesn't have critical thinking abilities, and doesn't just use primary sources (unless forums like reddit count as primary sources)
Clinton was hardly a liberal (except on some domestic issues): "Bill Clinton moved the Democratic Party to the center—often termed "Third Way" or "New Democrat"—to regain electoral power in the 1990s, adopting fiscally conservative, pro-business policies while keeping progressive views on social issues. While he was a Democrat, he is generally considered a moderate or centrist, not a traditional progressive liberal.
Move to the Right (Moderate Shift): Clinton championed welfare reform ("ending welfare as we know it"), tough-on-crime legislation (1994 Crime Bill), and deregulation of financial sectors, which were traditionally conservative areas." Nor is he in power today. Today we see real progressives like Sanders, Khana, and other democratic socialists rising to power replacing the old guard.
Dale,
The use of political rhetoric that pigeonholes ways of thinking into some sort of birds- of- a-feather packages are impressive, but do they really convey what people are capable of?
The rhetoric in your comments are truly impressive for those who are immersed in political arenas, but in the final analysis, do they truly reflect the conditions that have prevailed?
I cannot answer your question, tho I sense it is sincere, because it so vague. What conditions that have prevailed limit my "rhetoric?" And their is no final analysis because things are changing fast with a public that two years ago was 90% behind Israel now disapproving and 77% of Democratic voters calling out genocide and the socialist/progressive wing of the party rising to power. And Trump now trapped in a quagmire of his own making (prompted by Netanyahu) that will lead to a shift in power in the November elections. We are watching a river, not a pond. Things are changing rapidly and our discourse must reveal that fact.
Here’s another example Dale..
You write: “Things are changing rapidly”, no offence and I do agree somewhat, but for thousands of children who were slaughtered in the Gaza genocide, things didn’t change fast enough, with both Democrats and Republicans officially supporting the genocide .
In black and white parlance, I would ban all political parties , period.
Still going on really, the war against Iran was a good excuse to close border crossings into Gaza, and of course the usual daily killings of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank even if not in huge numbers.
Yes…. The perfect diversion.
I think what I am trying to convey is that sometimes we get lost in the translation of words. Words can entrap as well as liberate ideas.
For example, you stated that 77% of Democratic voters call out genocide who favor the socialist/progressive wing… for someone who is not familiar with political jargon, like myself, I like to believe what Greta Thunberg labels “ empty words”. .
In essence, isn’t the voting part of a democracy, which simply means the majority rules? In that sense, aren’t Republicans and Democrats all democratic voters?
I think what I am trying to point out is that the two parties to which you are referring mirror the gist of Greta Thunberg’s words, nothing more.
Spot on, John. I've pretty much thought that for years, a lot of words but not much actually said.
How many current members of Congress were in Congress in 1997?
Exactly, the what's in it for me greed and powerlust.
Were you not alive during the Civil Right Act, where liberals threw their southern base into the hands of the Republicans, in order to pass the Act? This was not comfort but sacrificing a pillar of their power. Are you not aware that democratic socialist Bernie Sandes whose bill to ban shippng arms to Israel, which got 2/3 of Dems on board last year is coming up for another vote soon, the same Bernie Sanders who said of the victory of Trump: "The Democratic Party abandoned the working class, and so the working class abandoned the Democratic Party" ?? The party is now in the process of returning to its New Deal roots in being the party of the working class, and while success is not guaranteed, trashing those seeking to make this transformation guarnatees it will fail. If you want to stop genocide in Gaza, one of the most effective things you coud do is let your Senator know you will not vote for him if he opposes the Sanders bill. And let anyone know that trashes Sanders they are unwitting assets of AIPAC, which is also trashing him for calling out genocide and since 1988, promoting conditioning aid to Israel on its treatment of the Palestinians and now at full throttle. Lend a hand, or get out of the way: change is coming and you can be part of it or help it fail.
I believe in Peter Pan! I do, I do!!!
Liberals are comfortable with the status quo. They want some changes but none that would benefit the majority, just enough it helps them stay in their comfort zone.
Exactly. Comfort is key.
You don't think Medicare, Social Security and expanded healthcare benefit the majority? Liberals do not push radical change but without them, there would have been no change at all, not Civil Right Act, no Voting Rights Act, no vote to ban shipping arms to Israel, etc. Without cooperation between liberals and leftists, nothing would have changed and nothing will change. If you have an alternative, what is it?
Funny, Dale talking about Social Security, an Act that occurred in 1935 under Roosevelt (90 years ago). And pretends the Democratic party is the same as it was then. What have these fucks really done of any significance - since then for the American people? Other than the 1960s Civil Rights Act?
This is the kind of phony Liberal shit the real Left in the US now has had to put up with for decades. This kind of gaslighting. Caitlin and others calling out the endemic corruption in the Democratic party and the Liberals who support it - but Caitlin then is the "crazy" one.
It's like a cotton farm plantation owner coming out and telling his slaves: if it weren't for him, they wouldn't have their huts to live in, or the breadcrumbs of food on their table. Their slavery would be even worse! Meanwhile, every year the Plantation is making record profits in the billions soon to be trillions. And the slaves are being whipped even more (and raped).
Dale praises the Social Security Act of 1935, passed 90 years ago as an example of democrat probity and devotion, but at the same time insists that the democrats and liberals of Clinton's time, well within living memory, have nothing to do with the Team D of today, even though they're superdelegates. Even Obama might as well be ancient history.
Hell, a few years ago, goodthink liberals and democrats railed against Trump’s genocide in Yemen - only to flip, the moment that genocide became Biden's genocide.
2F as we all well know, there is no fundamental difference between Ds and Rs. Both serve the same zionist master and both are utterly disgusting anti-human perversions.
Some people just like to complain. I am sick of Trump’s whining and I am sick to death of yours. Poor u. ( ahem..)
the Democratic Party shifted to the center after FDR, but listen to what Truman said: "Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
Socialism is what they called public power. Socialism is what they called social security.
Socialism is what they called farm price supports.
Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.
Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan "Down With Socialism" on the banner of his "great crusade," that is really not what he means at all.
What he really means is "Down with Progress--down with Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal," and "down with Harry Truman's fair Deal." That's all he means." 1952.
Then the Democrats threw their southern Dixicrat base under the bus to vote for the Civil Right Act. ceding them to the Republicans.
The drift right was under Clinton, and the drift now is to the left. The old guard is very unpopular, and of the top 5 most approved US active politicians, #1, #3, and #5 are democratic socialists and $4 is a radical progressive. A strong majority of Dem voters now prefer socialism to capitalism, and as our poet laureate sings:
"Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
Keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Might be later to win
For the times they are a changin'" So, as I always say, either lend a hand or get out of the way, for the wheel's still in spin.....
What vote to ban shipping arms to Israel? Schumer and Jeffries suck AIPAC's ass every day...lol
Well the Dem vote was 27 to stop shipping arms, 17 to continue.....by my reckoning that is a robust majority and up from 15 the previous vote. The Sanders bill i coming up for a vote again and again most Democrats will vote to stop arming Israel. "Majority Of Democrats Buck Chuck Schumer In Failed Vote To Restrict Weapons Sales To Israel. Schumer is no longer the leader of the Party..he is toast.
As for Jeffires, he is not in the Senate and did not vote and he is now promoting a 2 state solution, bucking Netanyahus total opposition to Palestinian independence.
Bernie is "controlled resistance". He is a liberal zionist but a zionist nonetheless. Jeffries was "allowed" to say "2 state solution" because 80% or so of the people of Israhell are in total opposition to Palestinian independence. Saying so will not hurt nor stop them but it might help him politically is all.
The concept of calling those leading the charge for change "controlled resistance" is promoted by those seeking to discredit the struggle for change. If Sanders, working on banning arms to Israel, a wealth tax on billionaires, universal health care, and free college is discredited, that collapses the efforts to achieve these goals. Labels do not define a man like Sanders but are used to try to wound him, something AIPAC must be paying you to do.
You must not understand Bernie is a Liberal Zionist, self proclaimed even. Bernie just funnels the progressive energy for those changes back into the corporate dems arena. When they have had control just like the republicans do now, all 3 branches, did they codify voting rights when they could have easily? Did they codify abortion? Did they do anything for healthcare? Yeah, they talked about it to get elected. AIPAC controls the dem party including bernie and aoc. I am guessing you believe the corporate liberal dems winning the midterms will save the US.
All you liberal haters also hate blacks, Latin people, women and fun. You are miserly, miserable people who like to enslave, not enlighten. And you cannot use us women as you wish. You guys are bigots in favor of rich people only. We all know you hate the poor as you’ve taken away everything from them. Including food stamps and medical insurance.
M.
When the House Committee on Impeachment of Nixon brought charges prior to Tricky Dick's resignation, it concentrated on things specific to Nixon's behavior, not policies fundamental to the outrages of all US presidents. Throw out the rotten apples but save the barrel. This is the liberal philosophy: the system's fine. Just change the party, the individuals, but keep the insane policies; no problem with 'Murica.
Americans always focus on the individual and not the corrupt system. As the saying goes dont knock the system. The predatory capitalist system is sacred and any criticism of it will get you labeled communist or worse.
For those in the U.S. who support the D's and say "Just wait til the Mid terms" I say Fuck you, fuck the R's and Fuck the Zionists. One more thing this Easter. Fucking cancel Israel and it's supporters. I almost sound Presidential.
Meanwhile, Chuck the Schmuck still head of the Democratic party. *smh*
Deport the traitors.
No offense to the name Chuck - just using it with Schumer! 0.0
You would literally empty the US political establishment. US Congress will only have 5-6 "lawmakers" (read: lawbreakers) left.
Aaron Bushnell/2028
Remember: "Red and Blue don't give a shit about you!"
I've known which side of this binary I am on, for 50 years. It is an intrinsic feeling that makes you feel like you are always swimming upstream against a strong current. Without constant vigilance, I can find myself floating downstream with the current of neoliberalism and resting in the eddies of the democratic politics here in the US. Its Caitlin and groups like this, that pull me out of the eddies and push on.
The word imperialist is not as accurate as supremacist. what is going on today is Satanic theology based on supremacist tribe.
Well done for publishing and saying - Peace be upon you by Gaza and Jerusalem - Honour and victory are the allies of the axis of resistance and its allies, and humiliation and shame are for the axis of evil, Epstein Class (USA, Britain, France, Turkey, Qatar, UAE, NATO Governments, Zionist and Israel) and its allies.
Is the world not better off without people who commit genocide, steal people's land, houses, and starve them to death? Oh wait. Is that antisemitic? Oh well...🖕!
Yes, I agree with you. If we are truly wanting to resist we also have to see that WE and Israel are the two most powerful interlopers in this world. We don’t come from the land we are occupying. Other nations, including Iran, have strong old cultures, morals and integrity they live by. We don’t abide by anything but our own power, the racist propaganda we have always learned as truth, and the want, want, want of everything. WE must change. (Thank you for your work. I will support you when I can)
My ancestors come from this land. Yours may not. But more importantly we all need to get to the point where we realize that all humans come from all land, that Earth is home and not some make-belief mythologized politically demarcated subsection of it.
Liberals in the U.S. like to performatively rage against half the war machine.
But they also want to embrace the remaining 50% with trans soldiers and "humanitarian intervention"
can not be said enough. loudly and repeatedly.
It's funny how commenters in this section (Dale Ruff mostly, some others), through their arguments, make Caitlin's point so perfectly. It's funny how Caitlin can be exactly correct on the subject of anti-imperialist actions vs people who sit around and talk all the time but don't do anything to change the world--the do nothing folks will always launch into the Dem vs Repub argument as some sort of weird knee jerk reaction--it's almost robotic. They're completely stuck. They don't get it at all. They don't know what imperialism is. They also don't know what capitalism is.
We love Pope Leo. Brave man. Man of high integrity. Pope Leo is unafraid of the orange freak' and his reptilian smirking fascist sycophants. Loathe the Pentagon greaser alcoholic drunk fascist,PH, and his demented perverted repellent Vile use of God's name to justify his illegal amoral immoral war mongering and cowardice. PH is a lying POS drunken coward. The drunken greaser pig fits in very well with the rest of the orange freak's repellent fascist cabinet team. Amerikan puppets and thugs get out of Iran. Stop murdering innocent unarmed civilians. No more wars on behalf of the Nazi fascists in issreehell
"Liberal" and "Conservative" are just words of convenience in politics. I for one am neither. I believe strongly in family values and loyalty . I believe strongly that it is our duty to learn to accept all people for their personal beliefs and lifestyles I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks any group should be promoted to promote the political concept of "diversity" . We are all people with the same needs and desires. none of us have the right to impose our beliefs on others. It is enough to explain your opinions to others and let them decide for themselves whether they wish to believe as you do. Any form of force in imposing your beliefs on others is inherently evil. Violence only begets violence. the only justification for violence is if you or your loved once are physically threatened. This includes open war, manipulated food shortages and criminal activity of others. It does not include the fear that your neighbour may wish you harm if there is no actual physical transgression. The history of Western "culture is one that violates every facet of love and decency. We must all learn to love one another or there will soon be no one left to love. I wish everybody peace and increased understanding of those whose beliefs and cultures differ from ours. It is the only way..
Any political system can be made to work tolerably well,if and to the extent it is run by non-sociopaths.
How do we prevent sociopaths taking power? They seek power, and they are good con artists. We need a system that identifies and disqualifies them.
It was that way when we had a free press. Evil bought the press and was no longer constrained.
I wish I had answers.
I support every word you have written. I am neither liberal, anti imperialist, conservative, democratic, or any label about anything those in power deliberately bring in to separate people into groups, I am just me. I disagree with any labels about anything at all. If people don't realize that when they apply a label about anything, whether it's about beliefs, generation labels, any label at all. The minute a person uses a label about anything, they have fallen into the trap those who would control us have laid.
They can label me a boomer, an anti this or anti that, as belonging to a certain group of any kind and prove they haven't really discovered the game being played on them. This doesn't mean they are good or bad people, it only means they have realized the truth about some things and still have more to learn. We are all individuals living together where unfortunately there are people who wish to control us and unless we want the kind of world you describe, we doom ourselves.
Tribes and labels short-circuit critical thinking.
See, Ruff, Dale, whose critical thinking boils down to "my team! My tribe!"
I've just ploughed my way through that particular morass. I love your first sentence, it is so exact.
Dale is like a budget version of Squealer.
He is best ignored as he is clueless lost case.
😄😆
I'm done with trolling assholes like Dale. He's been blocked. A libertarian Democrat? Oxymoronic horseshit.
He definitely likes to take over the page.
Deep breaths jamenta, he's simply not worth it.
"I hate labels about anything at all."
Exactly! Thanks for posting that.
(And of course I am not at all surprised that his imperial feline majesty is in agreement.)
I can practically hear him purring at that.
Yes that realization was a rude awakening for me! As long as the status quo remained, the dems in particular were happy just blaming the reps! And nothing ever changed!
More blame games without defining what is meant by liberals, as 8 million hit the streets to protest fascism and war a week ago. This is getting tiresome. Only an alliance of liberals and leftists can take down the fascists; dividing them with attacks on liberals instead of the fascists is something the fascists love.
"Marx advocated working with liberals in specific, tactical scenarios, despite his fundamental critique of liberalism as a capitalist ideology. He believed in forming coalitions with progressive liberals to defeat reactionary, feudal, or conservative forces and to achieve democratic reforms that could pave the way for socialist transformation."
Bleh. A blind and boring take on what Caitlin wrote. Take a hike.
the entire essay supplies a description of what is meant by liberals.
8 million hit the streets…. for parades.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2026/04/03/no-kings-in-america-real-resistance-in-rome-how-liberal-democrats-and-aipac-allies-hijacked-the-movement-while-italy-actually-fights-empire-and-genocide/
"No Kings" Parades - pretty much the same Anti-Trump (Anti-Republican) movement we've gotten now from the "Lesser of Two Evils" Democratic party for decades. Being Anti-Trump translates into Democratic party doing jack shit for the next 8 years. Then a billionaire demagogue even worst then Trump will get voted in.
Meanwhile, psychotic, off the chart funding still continues for Israel and the MIC.
jamenta, As I see it -
Once upon a time, the Vietnamese radicalised the 'Left' in America and they went on protest marches and Joan Baez and Bruce Springsteen,Patti Smith and others sang their hearts out.
Today Gaza, and Iran hitting back at the empire has radicalised the 'Left' and they marched in their thousands and the same singers took to the stage. Somewhat old and tired - I mean the whole story is old and tired. Nothing changed then! Will anything change now?!
Exactly. The nauseatingly tone-deaf “No Kings” shit, which comes straight down from D party messaging operatives and couldn’t be less organic, is actually the perfect
illustration of the difference between liberals and actual activists
They called it "democracy with donuts". What a joke. Blind lunatics lacking any self-awarness. A global mega-tsunami is coming, and these Ds are contemplating how much longer should they stay on the beach.
I was in the Civil rights Movement, marched with Dr King in Selma, Wash DC. A protesst is a march, a gathering, a parade or as the fascists call it, a clown car. What matter is 8 million people showed up to show resistance to fascism and war...calling it names, leave that for the enemy.
Just over a week ago, as Trump was waiting for the people of Iran to gather in protest and overthrow the regime, in fact Iran rallied behind the country and th people rising up were in the US, 8 millon strong, yes some tiresome liberal old guards showing up but 8 million is a signal that Trump heard loud and clear (a few days later he fired Bondi). I am sick of people arguing over labels: what counts is what you do ...and the largest protest in history can be mocked by hecklers on the sideline but it is a historical event that signals clearly that Americans do not want Trump, do not want ICE, do not want war. Those mocking the million with the balls to show up sit in their chairs clicking on the keyboard, doing the work of the fascists by mocking the historic protests and dividing the anti-fascist elements. When 300,000 showed up in DC to hear Dr. King in his I Have a Dream rally , many on the poser left ridiculed it as a "parade," but after 300 yrs of legalized racial injustice, the Civil Right Act passed within a few months. So I repeat: if you can't lend a hand, get out of the way...lndependents, liberals, progressives, and leftist all made their presence felt in no uncertain terms, while being insulted both by the fake far left and the far right just as the women suffragettes were, just as Dr. King was....just as all who fight for change are attacked by those who want to stop them on the right an, sadly, those on the armchair left who see a historic protest as "a parade." haha.
Did the protests stop the Iraq War? Did the massive protests after Trump won in ‘16 do anything to stop him?
I’ve been to every No Kings, even though I know they are performative theater. Bull Connor and his fire hoses and dogs made the Civil Rights Act possible, just as much as the I Have A Dream Rally, because it began to pull back the racist curtain for people on the fence and on their couches, and began to form a coalition amongst liberals and working class independents/conservatives sufficient to get legislation passed. That’s what is missing with No Kings.
That’s what you liberals who expect the Democratic Party to save us don’t get; Trump is just a symptom of institutional rot, and a Democratic Party of corporate-owned whores will not save us, it will just pave the way for a further solidification of the corporate coup which has already taken place.
Quit worrying about forming a coalition with the left. You’ll never get that until you form the more important coalition with voters on the right, those who voted for Trump out of desperation, and a desire for change from a corrupt system of capitalism that is crushing them. Build the FDR working class coalition, and then the left will help push you where we need to go.
You can’t build that coalition with No Kings and Save Democracy messaging, and yes, parades. It will come when the elected Democrats, writ large, ‘welcome the hatred’ of monied interests. Put simply, when No Kings morphs into No Billionaires. That’s when parade turns into protest.
beautifully put
100%