Remember what George Clemenceau said over a century ago:
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization."
I understood the message just fine. What you seem confused (brainwashed?) about is the fact that it is ALL about the Jewish people. I live in NYC and lived in LA for years. I was married to a fifth generation sabra and an American Jew and I have never met a Jew who was not a zionist.
I have been wondering that too, Diana. I have been wondering how so many humans have become this way. It is not how we are born. Look at a baby. They are all perfect. When my son was born, someone said to me that babies are born perfect and then the rest of their lives, we spend trying to ruin them. We teach them that money trumps all: nature, justice, kindness to others. How do we stop this?
I just a few minutes ago had this very discussion with a co-worker/middle aged parent of three coming out of his Green Card application meeting. Now that it was safe to talk about topics like this. We have more to talk about AFTER his card is in hand : ) You would think a PHD would be a no brainier but...........
Selective memory. My own selective memory for a coupla three decades now recalls the many often contradictory messages I've received from my dearly departed parents in different stages of their lives and my own situ when my memory decided what was best to associate with from my folks' richly seasoned soups of wisdom. I miss my folks and maternal grandmother (I didn't get to know paternal grandmom, but the few visits felt good to get to meet her up in Canada, although she wouldn't share much about the 'old country' they and our ethnic group were run out of....)
Like weather and barometric pressure I have to believe my memory selects what I need at any given moment to think about from the rich stew of often contradictory and mostly recognizably human encounters and, what was that phrase President Obama was so fond of? Oh, yeah, them and those "teachable moments...."
Diana, unfortunately 'frustrated,hungry,homeless' are not features of only 'Western civilizations' - it is present in many civilizations/cultures.
On the 'isolated' thing, I tend to agree with you (based on my personal experience of living in several cultures - but then again, it could be just my personality).
Remember what George Clemenceau said over a century ago:
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization."
I think it's more about people-rather than nationalities and cultures. You can find kindness and care in every country or culture- the problem is there just isn't an abundance anywhere.
In Argentina while working there, it seemed common whole families would live on mattresses in city centers. Here in the u.s. people hide their families. We are people without a future if we allow this Genocide to normalize how horribly we treat each other. This is the test of my lifetime. : (
It's the same in the US - they elected Trump. It's also the same in India - they elected Modi.
In fact, there's a pattern here - which the oligarchy exploit. The playbook for authoritarians (in a nutshell) is ->
(1) Give the people limited choices (in terms of political parties/representation)
(2) Ensure those 'limited choices' don't represent what the majority wants (eg. neither democrats nor republicans represent the wants/needs of the american people)
(3) Use austerity strategies to make economic life difficult for the people being ruled over (eg. gutting of social services, healthcare, legal representation, protection from exploitation, economic hardships, etc.)
(4) Use FEAR to further demoralize the public and create moral panics
(5) Use the moral panics (eg. blaming immigrants, blacks, etc.) to divide the people and make them fight against each other instead of against power
(6) Use all the illusions available, gaslighting, and the moral panics created to present UNFAVORABLE and LIMITED choices (eg. harris or trump)
(7) Then present yourself as the (FAKE) savior of the people (eg. like Trump does in America, Milei in Argentina, Modi in India, etc.)
In such an environment, 'common people' make bad decisions - like electing the WORST leaders possible (the list of such leaders is seemingly endless and is present in most countries globally at some point or another in history).
Sadly, economic necessity. I didn't see as much at that in Chile. I wrote a story, Heroes of the Mountain. My co-workers during Covid were having coffee in one of my favorite places on the mountain. A friend asks what can we do? No response. He yells, WHAT CAN WE DO? Long short story short, friends asks his Sister a teacher, she refers them to a family living in the street with a Daughter who is very bright. They build them a cabin, water, power, internet. A bicycle for the Father to search for work. They had a toilet something they didn't think they would have of their own again. The world is a fucked up place my friend : ( I love those people like family. Each one a hero doing the work of what it is to be human. I cry when I tell the story.
"So many people are frustrated, hungry, homeless, feeling isolated. What kind of a civilization does that to its citizens?"
All of them. At least, to greater or lesser extent. Because no matter what the design of government, all of them, sooner or later, succumb to the iron law of oligarchy, and the dark side of that law is allowing intelligent psychopaths to worm their ways into position, and eat away.
There are some here who seem to think some (new-and-improved?) form of socialism (or communism) will do wonders, but I've never heard it explained how psychopathy is to be permanently controlled to achieve state-state. There are some (not many here, I believe) who think libertarianism (a form of anarchy) will do it, but likewise, they do not account for control of the warlords who inevitably take over. Both approaches already have plenty of historical experience, even if the ideology was imperfectly realized those experiences have provided a revelation of what really happens to societies.
One cannot change the range of destructive human nature and behaviors. One can only change the way we confront and control that range, instead of believing in Pollyanna idea of universal love that comes when the structure is changed.
You're definitely right about that. India began its neoliberal journey in the early 90s (about the same time as when the Cold War ended and the dissolution of the Soviet Union). Russia too was badly impacted by Western neoliberal Capitalism.
Doesn't that title belong to Israel and its apartheid state and the treatment of the indigenous population of Palestine, while lying about its ancestry in order to build towards its world rule?
If anyone place deserves tgat distinction, surely it's zionist Israel?
Israel, as it exists today, is an invention of the British and American Empires. Without the continuing sponsorship of the US Government, Eretz Israel would cease to exist.
The genocide could be over in 10 minutes. Trump could call Netanyahu. Tell him go back to 1948 lines or 1968 any line. Then send the same air force he put on IRAN. Instantly done. But he would probably need to actually drop the bombs as well.
I agree with every word but would add that this was/is an invention with clear intention to commit long-term fraud and robbery. This is why I try to call their creation "Israel" rather than Israel.
Apartheid inequality is different from non-apartheid inequality. For example, even the U.S. has a form of apartheid inequality (you have likely heard the term Jim Crow South). Same in the case of apartheid South Africa.
The inequality in India is across the board (all religions/peoples) and is based on the system of neoliberal capitalism (not racism). There has always been inequality in India (eg. caste system, dalits, and more recently Muslims and immigrants), but ever since Modi (and his BJP party) came into power, inequality in the country has ramped up significantly.
Ohhhh right the wonderful western civilization that gives us new iPhone models every year for a small price of producing constant wars, killing millions, and destroying Earth while bringing misery to all. No human system will ever be perfect but western civilization is pure evil.
Well, what nonwestern civilization killed millions?
As for one example of a better one, I could name dozens of American tribes--let's just settle on the Haudenosaunee/Iroquois. That was a confederation of seven tribes that made rules to prevent wars, and lived in peace with the rest of Creation--as most all indigenous peoples do--it's only "civilization" that announces that we humans (of some male humans) own the rest of creation, have "conquered" it. It's western civilization that has us on track for human extinction by the end of the century--no other society even tried for that, what a glorious achievement!
Many better human systems existed but the aggressive genocidal evil western system destroyed them in its pursuit of world dominance and insatiable materialism.
Umm, India was colonized by western civilization (the Brits). You don't think that has reverberations to today? Their system was heavily influenced by the west, and continues to be.
Not always. And it's not like India's caste system is all that different from the class system in the west, it's just more loosely structured in the west. Like you don't think people from wealthy families doesn't come with social status, better career opportunities, better lifestyle, intermarriage between wealthy families? Come on. Britain for example still has the monarchy, dukes and duchesses, that all comes with inherent privileges. Caste system is class system by another name.
Not that British colonialism has had anything to do with the current state of the subcontinent, just as it has with almost all the other partitioned, war-torn locations.
Who is "we"? The workers of the West have been and are oppressed too. It is the capitalist ruling class that has despoiled the planet. To blame the oppressed as well as the oppressers, to ignore the realities of class exploitation, only furthers confusion and despair. Liberalism has failed. The goal of Socialism is the liberation of the global working class. That is worth saving indeed.
Comrade... You can't save something you've never had. There has never been a liberated global working class, and no government of the west is socialist. So while your position is valid, it's not an argument against Johnstone's point so much as it is an exposition of what you'd like to replace our current western civilization with.
many defenders of either will indeed use those concepts interchangeably. i don't know of anyone ever claiming that marxism or socialism is one of the great achievements of western civilisation.
guess the author of the following quote: “the jewish doctrine of marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight. thus it denies the worth of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the basis of its existence and culture. as a foundation of the universe, marxism would lead to the end of any order in the world.”, same as this one:
“by defending myself against the jew, i am fighting for the work of the lord… the jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics and never a religion… the jew is the spider that slowly sucks the people’s blood out of the pores of the national body. marxism is the present jewish form of destruction.”, and consider you might be down in some rabbit hole (and then how you got there).
You seem to be arguing against yourself. The author was a socialist. Anarchists are socialists. Bakunin, the anarchist whom Marx defeated to gain control of the Internationale was a socialist, and compared "the People's State of Marx" to a Rothschild bank. Socialists do not object to the ownership of private property, they object to the owners of the private property distorting the economy. As Michael Hudson, called the world's foremost economist by former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts, notes, Marx was a classical economist. Engels, managing a family factory, saw first hand, the effects of what was causing the degenerative situation of the working class in Manchester. Their observations were correct, the solutions not.
If you want a quote from another socialist who predicted the future, this may be it: “Humanity would sink into eternal darkness, it would fall into a dull and primitive state, were the Jews to win this war. They are the incarnation of that destructive force that in these terrible years has guided the enemy war leadership in a fight against all that we see as noble, beautiful, and worth keeping. For that reason alone the Jews hate us. They despise our culture and learning, which they perceive as towering over their nomadic worldview. They fear our economic and social standards, which leave no room for their parasitic drives.”
Hitler was NOT a socialist. Both Wolff and Hudson agree that because of the influence of the Communist revolution in Russia and the horrible inflation that Germany suffered in the '20s, the Communists had a lot of influence on the general public. One could not form a successful new political party without the word "Socialist" in its name.
Wolff also calls Marx a classical economist and does a pretty good job of explaining the failures of the Friedman derivative of economics which only exists because it is what the Oligarchy wants to hear. You don't get a job as an economist unless you are extremely smart, like Wolff and Hudson, or because you make stuff up that the Oligarchy can use to steal the wealth created by Labor.
Hudson complains that his book "Superimperialism" was suppose to show the ills of the American economy and neocolonialism but the CIA turned it into a "How to" manual.
hitler nor goebbels were socialists. the goebbels quote is also another nice reference to the previous post of caitlin ("the arabs hate us because of our religion" is the new "they hate us for our freedom"). nobody ever claimed that marxism and socialism were great achievements of western civilisation because the actual 'centrist' (fascism light) elites would not allow it.
Before the rise of capitalism, there was feudalism wherein monarchs and emperors “owned” all of the material capital— primarily land and all of the land’s resources. Serfs and slaves provided labor.
So, Western civilization was either based upon feudalism or capitalism. It is extremely difficult to distinguish the differences.
Accurate, but not complete. The guild systems, craft and trade, were in place for hundreds of years. The monarchial power dwindled, as the merchant class (trade guilds) gained more power, literally buying titles and estates. The individual craft guilds carpenters, joiners, stone masons, blacksmiths, farriers, cobblers, hostlers, drovers, etc. controlled the means of production. The craft guilds were local, as virtually all commerce was local. The trade that wasn't local shifted to the merchant guilds, of which most were raw materials such as wool. In order for capitalism to take hold, the craft guilds had to be dismantled to allow "capital" to own the means of production and usher in the industrial revolution. In many respects, large estates were like vertically integrated local economies and largely self sufficient, as the maintenance of the estates fell to local crafts. Certainly not a perfect system, but then, there is no perfect system.
The American labor unions were a good start toward the concept of the crafts guilds but were stifled by the bipartisan Taft Hartley Act of 1947 and a concerted propaganda campaign by big industry.
The European “works councils” are better than nothing, but not at the level of the old guilds.
FWIW: I think certain unions, like electrical workers and plumbers, who are well represented by individuals and small businesses do a good job of representing their members.
Joti Brar of the UK communists is often on Garland Nixon. She explains quite well the transitions to and from feudalism to capitalism. And she explains what is happening in Western economies now. Her version is much like Yanis Varoufakis' description of technofeudalism and neo-serfdom.
Thanks for that link. Everyone on this thread should listen to Joti Bar on that great podcast episode that packs History, Economics and Current Events into one lecture.
I wasn't born until 1940, so didn't hear him say it when it was apparently said, however I remember quite well seeing it on an old Pathe News item where he said, it and it stuck in my mind. And I do not mean from the film after his death. It was about when he visited the textile companies and the workers cheered him on.
Why? Does truth depend on who utters it? And as Michael Hall points out below, Gandhi had some reprehensible beliefs of his own. Does that affect the truth of what he says?
Seriously? You're talking about truth and in the same sentence asking why truth is important?
>>"Does truth depend on who utters it?"
And since when are 'opinions' considered 'truth' or 'facts'?
If, according to you, truth doesn't matter, then anyone can attribute a quote to anyone they please, and then use the excuse 'oh, it's the truth so it doesn't matter if that person said it or didn't'.
That quote sounds very much like something Gandhi would say, and it would not surprise me if those not in agreement(such as our ruling class) would deny he said it. I wonder how much Qhoteinvestigator.com charges for the desired results. In today's America EVERTHING can be bought at a price. At least that is the impression I have.
>>"That quote sounds very much like something Gandhi"
It's irrelevant what YOU think Gandhi would say, just as it would be irrelevant what someone thinks 'someone might say' as a way to justify facts.
That's how lies and rumors spread. That's how misinformation spreads. The 'I think this sounds like the truth' without the 'verification part' is what leads to a 'post-truth' society where people are prone to believe whatever they wish without real evidence.
Your link says "QI would say that the quote is not well-supported and may be apocryphal." not that it is "FALSELY attributed to Gandhi".
So if Gandhi didn't say it, or something closely approximating it, where did it come from, and why do so many varied voices attribute it to him? Your article does not suggest any alternative sources.
So unless your theory is that some nameless reporter spontaneously came up with it on his own, credited it to Gandhi for some reason, and then lots of different sources picked up on that original confabulation, I think its reasonable to give Gandhi the credit.
I know it's a mistake to engage with you because once you have seized on an idea it's impossible to get you to think twice, but its so much fun I can't resist. Yes I read the link. That's where the quote:
"QI would say that the quote is not well-supported and may be apocryphal."
comes from. Unlike you, my reading comprehension is excellent thank you.
So what does 'not well-supported' mean to you? Use evidentiary logic.
What is the difference between 'fact' and 'fiction'? If there is not enough valid, vetted, evidence (same applies in science), then you do not get to 'rename your opinions' as facts.
No doubt. But he was also one of the most successful freedom fighters of all time, getting the Indian nation out from under the rapacious thumb of the British Empire without resorting to violence. One problem at a time...we are none of us perfect.
Gandhi opposed untouchability and advocated for the rights of lower castes, referring to them as "harijans" or "children of God." However, he did not fully reject the caste system itself, believing it had a role in Hindu society, which led to criticism from other leaders like B.R. Ambedkar.
Western philosophy is unfortunately not the only civilization that needs a complete overhaul of its dysfunctional issues. The malaise is an international condition and can be readily ldentified by the absolute international silence of the Gaza genocide.
At present, there are about 12,000 nuclear warheads awaiting launching orders., yet, if anyone reading these posts has even mentioned the greatest threat ever faced by our species in the past year, hats off to you because the international silence is absolute.
A quibble, maybe, but the silence is not absolute. South Africa charged them with genocide over a year ago, other countries have signed on, people and unions have been standing against it--the UN, which was formed to prevent wars and genocide, was compromised at the outset by the Security Council, formed of nuclear powers, which could veto any action.
Mary, every one of your comments is valid and solidly anchored. There is one element however that creates all the world’s silence, Money. When the smoke of passionate rhetoric clears, the only thing that matters to anyone who wishes to survive in human jungles is Money, followed by. Money, and ending with Money.
I love the spirit of your comments, but until people start to talk about the most important thing that rules their life, nothing will change. Credit scores outweigh moral scores everywhere, for everything.
I have heard a story, which is perhaps a myth, that Mohatma Ghandi, when asked what he thought about Western Civilization, responded by saying that he thought it would be a good idea. I do not know if that actually happened, but it such a perfect answer that I resist finding out if it is truth or myth. In fact, there is nothing civilized about "the West" at all. In fact, "the West" was built on aggression, colonialism and genocide, which is to say raw power. That is the opposite of civilized behavior. The colonialists manufactured the myth of "Western Civilization" via propaganda which said that those being conquered were incapable of governing themselves and that, by providing "leadership" (which usually meant the slaughter of anyone in the conquered country who opposed the takeover of their country), the conquering country would improve the lives of the conquered by "civilizing" them. My Country, the US, has now truly exposed its true colors by supporting, in fact, enabling, the genocide of the Palestinians. Those who know US history should not find this surprising since the US was only able to expand its territory westward by conducting the genocide of the American Indians. The US is now a rogue state which routinely violates international law and our own Constitution. Those holding high positions in our government are mostly ignorant of even our own history and certainly ignorant of world history. Moreover, they are totally corrupt and self-serving. They have no interest in diplomacy. They are in government to steal as much money as possible. Otherwise, they serve no purpose at all.
Beautifully put Jim. Perhaps there was no history before the USA, and thus there was no history before the rugged individual American ego, and Ayn Rand, and hence there is Elon Musk, who created everything, and who started out in apartheid South Africa, and who possibly left for the land of the brave and the free because unlike them he couldn't destroy the indigenous people on his continent of origin. But we'll see. What is Gaza, after all?
“This civilization is genocidal. Ecocidal. Omnicidal. Imperialist. Racist. Dehumanizing. Degrading. Dystopian. Emotionally stunted. Culturally vapid. Spiritually impoverished.” Three more: Supremacist, Colonial, and therefore apartheid(al). The first makes the last two impossible to confess. “I can’t be narcissistic, I am perfect.” THE Judaeo Christian motto.
I was just thinking today that there is an ethic on the part of rightwing Christians (and probably Zionist Jews) in which they equate their religious affiliation with virtue, and thus think they needn't bother about morality.
I have trouble seeing zionist Jews as anything much when their rabbis are telling them rape of children is a blessing - as long as the child has had their third birthday - how very generous to hold off that long to pierce that little body by an adult male's penis, when we know that rape at any age is torture - ask any adult female who has been raped, if she thought rape a blessing or a curse, especially when it was multiple heinous bastards enjoying the act?
I don' know, but I feel sure that it's not All rabbis. And I have never heard of Jews drinking the blood of Christian babies and I can't believe that either.
They needn’t be rightwing nor zionist. The assumption being exposed right now is that Judaeo Christianity is the apex, the best of the best. But London Bridge is falling down…. all at once.
Mary, I believe you are on to something here. Whether we believe that Jesus Christ was a myth or if he truly walked the earth, if we would actually adhere to the basic teachings he espoused: "loving your neighbor as yourself", "do unto others as you would have done unto you", "judge not lest you be judged", this world would be heaven on earth. The problem is, man's pride will not allow him to seek out the true good of his fellow man; rather, he wishes to lord it over others, under the guise of a religious affiliation, etc. The Pharisees of Jesus's time were exactly that. Jesus pronounced them "dead men's bones in whited sepulchers" and "a brood of vipers."
I wish we would go Haitian on the pack of them. Perhaps such a temporary reprieve of the irreplaceable virtue of decency can be temporarily suspended in view of the collective monstrosity congealed around despicable character formations like those of Lindsay Graham? This will no doubt not be televised as the spokesmen of the monstrosity will be among the first sprawling over their desks in the sticky pools of blood poured from their ripped throats where they kept their organs of mendacity. Sigh.
I was going to reply to your previous post about the elites vs the working classes being a romanticised and out-dated concept. But you seem to be rightly including us all; the enormous western middle classes, we also fly around (if only on commercial flights) and surf on the labour of the serfs.
The modern day serfs or working classes, who work in shops, delivery, slaughter houses, meat packing and anything that can't be automated, are First Nation people in the colonies, immigrants to Western countries from formerly colonised and stolen from countries, and factory workers in neo-colonised countries where unions are suppressed to keep them poor and goods cheap.
Opposing capitalism can't be separated from opposing colonisation.
The rise of the middle classes in the Global Majority is squeezing the western middle class but we still have pretty luxurious lives.
A revolution would involve decolonisation and a massive decline in the Western economy and the material wealth of the middle class. We may protest about Palestine but our inevitable impoverishment with the growth of mulitpolarity isn't going to be so popular.
The multipolar world without Western civilisation is still going to have to grapple with the major problem of materialism and growth on a finite planet. Not to mention the climate crisis. Only a concerted global effort to stop making and using so much stuff will save humanity. The influence of materialism on everyone all over the world, especially as they have been denied it by the West, is too strong I fear.
All true BUT a globally equal society could actual confer better lives on the middle classes of the wealthy nations. Having a lot of stuff isn't everything. Pulling the plug on the constant stream of advertising and PR, to let fresh air into our heads, would allow people to see how thoroughly we've been fracked. What's it worth to "live luxurious lives" when you're afraid of everyone else, bombarded with messages of fear and loathing, have to kowtow to "your superiors" at work, have to hide realities from your children, have high cancer rates because of what you're exposed to, etc.? The rates of depression, suicide, addiction show just what it's worth.
Added to the problem is Evangelicalism and it's "wealth means you are closer to God" and you are saved by some guy calling himself a pastor and reading from the revised bible, given free when he becomes a pastor. The revised "reference bible" first published in 1900, that makes all the claims the zionists dictated to a convicted criminal on his conversion to Judaism, and is now used as the excuse for killing Palestinians while stealing the land they finally decided out if all their shopping around, they could steal Palestine, the country without a standing army, so with the least hope of fighting back.
Once apon a time people happily used barter to survive and it worked well until someone, who would later start a bank, devised money should be the favoured exchange between us. There was a trial started again where we could exchange things or tasks with expach other then employers sided with the banks and started paying wages/ salaries directly into bank accounts so everyone needed to open an account that allowed this, and we know where it went from there...
No, each of us is, or should be, responsible for our own actions. It always bothered me that RCs could happily go to confession and then merrily go out and do the same stuff again. Also the "get out of gaol free" card that allowed priests to hear murderers confess and not have to report it to police. No man or woman on earth can absolve you from your crimes, so that you can repeat them.
Western civilization, as represented by Voltaire and the finest minds of the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, is definitely worth saving..It's the best this planet has produced...There is no substitute...but the cracks that started appearing in the late 19th and were depicted by writers like Dostoevsky, Kafka, Camus and Chesterton have mutated into an oligarchy that needs perpetual war to flourish...Either we get rid of that oligarchy and its promoters, or they will s destroy civilization as we know it and replace it with tech feudalism....
Ever heard of Genghis Khan, the Huns, the Muslim invasions, the Turks, American Indian tribes slaughtering each other and taking territory... This is **human** history, these are **human** failings, not simply "western" or "white" failings ... You dumb fucks.
My dear, we are not "dumb fucks." Do you really believe that just because Genghis Khan, the Huns, muslims, the Turks and Indian tribes have done it in the distant past, that justifies and gives us carte blanche to do all these horrible things today?
Unable to construct a coherent sentence, let alone an argument, a list of "whatabouts" is spewed out, followed by an insult, usually with a "fuck" thrown in.
to Richard and Michael - I am not sure if you are addressing me or someone else, but I can assure you that I am not a US knuckle dragger nor a clueless moron nor a clown. FYI, I have several degrees, BA, MA, and Ph.D, all on scholarships and fellowships. Among my jobs was teaching at the Defense Language Institute, and also translating for the govt (CIA and FBI) (I assume, they never told me who they were). I also worked for 10 years for our local hospital as Administrative Assistant.
Every civilisation has good points and bad points. It is natural for people to see the good points of their own civilisation, and not so aware of its bad points.
The main things that people need as they think about their own and other civilisations, are humility, and an awareness of how much power corrupts.
Chang, I believe you're right. Only a person with psychopathic tendencies wishes to rule over other people. But the other thing that needs to be considered here is the numerous men and women who enable and empower the elite to rule over the plebs by "obeying their orders" and will willingly commit heinous crimes on their fellow human beings, all in the name of "just doing my job."
Power is to sociopaths what catnip is to cats. In fact, regardless of the system, power inevitably ends up in the hands of sociopaths, because sociopaths are the ones who will do whatever it takes to get power.
You can't toss The One Ring into Mout Doom and the problem is fixed. Rather, even if you don't pick up The Ring, someone else will, and you may not like what they do with it.
For that matter, if you do pick up The Ring, you will be swarmed with Gollums looking to get themselves a piece a that. They aren't always so obvious.
The Fourth Estate USED TO BE the method for holding their feet to the fire, speaking Truth to Power. That is so over now. ALL power needs continuous push-back.
Depends what you mean by Western Civilisation. It’s an amorphous collection of ideas. There are some great aspects to Western Civ - innocent before proven guilty, anti-slavery, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and a lot more.
No one actually decides how society will be. We don’t steer the ship. Caitlin always appears to be hoping for some kind of mass awakening, some elevation of consciousness in the masses. Well … that would be nice but given the titanic forces of capitalism/consumerism, propaganda, law and societal pressures it seems unlikely. LSD in the water supply?
Those "qualities" are merely used as propaganda for several reasons, the main two, imo,
1. To give the whites a feeling of supremacy.
2. To denigrate the global south, in order to portray them as inferior, lesser humans, and therefore only fit for exploitation.
Both of these come together to be used to gain consent to go to war.
Borell the Gardener spelled it out publicly.
"Josep Borell, the European Union's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, compared Europe to a garden – and most of the world to a jungle – in a speech at the European Diplomatic Academy in Bruges, Belgium.
“Europe is a garden. We have built a garden… The rest of the world… is not exactly a garden. Most of the rest of the world is a jungle. The jungle could invade the garden. The gardeners should take care of it”
In plain speech from the top of Europe, Borell calling for the Global South to be "cut back like weeds encroaching on the white paradise".
Not all civilisations are equal. The accomplishments of the White man are numerous. I think we have a lot to be proud of. What have the Romans ever done for us? Borell sounds like he was onto something.
Yes, Borrell invented gun powder, didn't create an opium epidemic in China, never destroyed the highly evolved Indian cotton industry, made the white man in the image of Donald Trump, and never once left off trimming his rose bushes after bringing tons of compost to them with his own superior little hands.
All those things that you mention as positive in Western civilization are applied selectively and thus fake. West is a supremacist mafia-style kakistocracy. Freedom of speech, anti-slavery, etc. - you must be kidding!
Native culture of Tibet, before Han takeover. Dalai Lama, etc. The full opposite of the military-industrial-congressional complex, which NEEDS the next "threat," the next War, until the Final Conflagration (coming soon).
How is the Dalai Lama any different from the Pope? How is Tibetan Buddhism any better or different than Roman Catholicism ... Except that the latter is the authentic culture of your ancestors while the former is just an illusion seen through an Orientalist lens.
You cannot be serious, look at the crimes of child rape by priests and the cover-ups and moving them around that still goes on. My carer is buddhist, every time she enters my home she brings sunshine in her smile, she is a fun person, nothing is too much trouble. When I give her things because they don't work for me, she brings something that will on her next visit, she drove me to a hospital appointment on her day off, I did not ask her to, but so glad she did because I was in shock when told I needed surgery and she was soon supportive to me and got me through that day. The one I had before was more interested talking about herself, in fact she never stopped, could I get a word in? No way. I asked, no demanded, she not come back then got my present one and she is wonderful.
The monks killing the Rohingya in Myanmar are Buddhist. The Japanese kamikaze were Buddhist. Thai monks selling drugs and involved in sex scandals are Buddhist. What's your point. A tiny minority of Catholic priests were involved in child abuse, which is found everywhere in every culture.
This statement is 100% Correct. For years I've come to that conclusion, but was holding out hope that it might change but sadly it has only got worse and getting even more so .They don't listen to the people anymore they just do whatever they want because the powers that be has grown more bold arrogant, as they seize and restrict the right of the people, who really has no power to stop them. I never thought I would live to see the day where America is fully and without shame supporting a Genocide of Powerless Humans, where pleading and begging to stop the Genocide is now seen as unpatriotic and a Crime .Western civilization has now really now gone fully over to the DARK SIDE and they don't care and seem mighty proud of it. It has become a Morally and Spiritually Bankrupt entity
Yes, Caitlin, when profit for the few takes precedence over everything else, when the politics are determined by the power of the strongest (power through deterrence), then there is no longer any room for humanism and ecology. No longer any room for people like Greta Thunberg, you, or me. We are ridiculed as left-wing, anti-Semitic crackpots and supporters of terrorists. That is the narrative. With the full backing of the Western media.
Unfortunately, there is no powerful international counter-movement that would be supported by China, for example. They, too, are now only concerned with Western-adapted values.
"We don’t need to rescue western civilization from outside forces, we need to rescue ourselves from western civilization."
It's imperative Westerners escape their abusive relationship with their culture, ASAP. Western civilization will destroy the entire planet if it continues much longer. It cares not for wildlife or clean water. It cares not for helping its neighbors. It wants only one thing: profits over people and planet. Time to shut it down for good!
What is "Western civilization" if it's not a culture that perpetuates the idea that profits are infinitely more important than living things? The two words are synonymous, IMO.
TRC, it is not 'the culture', it is the 'economic and political' system of Capitalism. You will observe the SAME effects in other Capitalist countries (to different extents based on the variety and stage of capitalism).
Profits (and the need to maximize profits and growth at any costs) is a direct consequence of Capitalism, not a 'cultural' by product. This is the same in Asia, Africa, North America, Middle-East, Europe, everywhere Capitalism reigns supreme.
Chang yes but at some point the political-economic system infiltrates and becomes a prevailing culture. It is a parasitic system. All other values are forgotten and replaced by infinite greed and search of profit. Just look at the West today. It is a blob that eats itself from inside. It is inhumane and unsustainable. As an inherently structurally unstable system it will self-destruct or be destroyed by a better system.
Yes, but the root of that parasitic system is the money it runs on. When money can be created endlessly, greed becomes the dominant value and everything else erodes. The West shows this clearly today. The way out is not just waiting for collapse, but building on a better foundation: money that cannot be manipulated.
Well said. The political-economic system becomes the prevailing culture. It becomes a culture of greed, of elites and the downtrodden. No matter where it occurs, capitalism brings the sickness of greed from the West and destroys the native culture. That's why I say capitalism = Western culture. You can't really have one without the other.
Nick, I observe the SAME effects in non-western cultures too. The economic system affects the culture and the culture affects the economic system - both of them influence each other.
Having lived in other cultures (besides the West), I can attest to so many things that are common in these cultures (and some things that are different).
I'm not defending 'Western culture' here, I'm simply saying that it is not easy to define 'what exactly' is unique to ONLY Western culture (genocide happens in multiple cultures - Sudan, Armenia, Myanmar - Rohingya, etc, profits and exploitation is global, imperialism has been practiced by multiple cultures - Japanese, Middle-Eastern, Russian, Chinese, Eastern European, etc., racism is prevalent in multiple cultures as is colorism, women and children are exploited in multiple cultures - patriarchy, etc.).
I understand. I also lived in many places. And while no human made system will ever be perfect, or even close to it, the genocidal evil western culture is the worst of all. Cannot stand their fake humanity, hypocrisy, "democracy", lies, cheats,
supremacist racist ideology and posture. shitsrael is their creation and that also tells me everything about the western "civilization".
Capitalism is a tool of western culture. Capitalism is only a few hundred years old--long before that there was slavery, genocide, wars of conquest, social classes, exploitation, environmental damage. You can find all these things outside western culture, but they're rare, not the norm--which has been imposed virtually everywhere in the world so it's hard now to point to an abusive society and say it's non-western.
Why would any sane person want this to continue? The usual response is that there is no alternative. And many people do, in fact, believe it — or, out of fear of the unknown, come to believe it.
Yes there are alternatives. All better. This is western propaganda that there are no alternatives making themselves irreplaceable. BS. Western civilization is not only not worth saving but it must be discarded if the humanity is to survive. So there is NO alternative but to get rid of western zionist genocidal system forever. Will be remembered in the history books as the darkest and ugliest period of humanity.
Cuba. They're impoverished, because of a lifetime of US blockade, but they still have better health and educational outcomes than the US, on a tenth of the money. Their location subjects them to a lot of hurricanes, but they rarely lose anyone, because when the hurricane is approaching, the government sends buses and trucks to take everyone--with their livestock and pets--to safety. They use their surplus of trained medics to help endangered people all over the world. So here's an alternative--stop harassing Cuba, reward them for the medical beneficence, and take them as a model for healing the sick societies to the north.
The first thing I thought when I read the title is "What we have now IS NOT western civilization, but something else. I wouldn't even call it "civilized", because it is any but. The root word of civilization is "civil", which DOES NOT describe what we see. What we see is much more like gangs of barbarians. Don't let their technology fool you. At their core they are at best brutes and bullies, at worst complete psychopaths. Literally.
I am speaking of most of the governments of the collective west. The governments of the UK, Germany, France, Austria, and Australia are essentially insane asylums at this point. We see them coddling the criminals and arresting and jailing the victims. For them down is up, good is bad. THAT is who I'm speaking of.
Such an important point! So many people are frustrated, hungry, homeless, feeling isolated. What kind of a civilization does that to its citizens?
Western "civilization" was never a civilization but parasitic fascist zionist genocidal dystopian cult of supremacist a$$holes.
Remember what George Clemenceau said over a century ago:
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization."
Because they never own up to their crimes. They still are in denial.
Agree. They need a "spanking" lesson they will not forget in 10,000 years.
You left off "patriarchal death cult," but maybe I'm just quibbling.
Important point : )
I agree. Get rid of the jews and all of the negative features will disappear and Western civilization will become what it once was.
I don't think you understood the message. This is nothing about the Jewish people. This is about Zionism of which most are Christians in the u.s.
I understood the message just fine. What you seem confused (brainwashed?) about is the fact that it is ALL about the Jewish people. I live in NYC and lived in LA for years. I was married to a fifth generation sabra and an American Jew and I have never met a Jew who was not a zionist.
I am not sure how humans can coexist with small hats tribe. Do you have an answer?
I have been wondering that too, Diana. I have been wondering how so many humans have become this way. It is not how we are born. Look at a baby. They are all perfect. When my son was born, someone said to me that babies are born perfect and then the rest of their lives, we spend trying to ruin them. We teach them that money trumps all: nature, justice, kindness to others. How do we stop this?
I just a few minutes ago had this very discussion with a co-worker/middle aged parent of three coming out of his Green Card application meeting. Now that it was safe to talk about topics like this. We have more to talk about AFTER his card is in hand : ) You would think a PHD would be a no brainier but...........
I am not quite sure what you mean by this comment. Not that I have a problem with it. I just don't quite understand what you are saying.
Selective memory. My own selective memory for a coupla three decades now recalls the many often contradictory messages I've received from my dearly departed parents in different stages of their lives and my own situ when my memory decided what was best to associate with from my folks' richly seasoned soups of wisdom. I miss my folks and maternal grandmother (I didn't get to know paternal grandmom, but the few visits felt good to get to meet her up in Canada, although she wouldn't share much about the 'old country' they and our ethnic group were run out of....)
Like weather and barometric pressure I have to believe my memory selects what I need at any given moment to think about from the rich stew of often contradictory and mostly recognizably human encounters and, what was that phrase President Obama was so fond of? Oh, yeah, them and those "teachable moments...."
Tio Mitchito
Diana, unfortunately 'frustrated,hungry,homeless' are not features of only 'Western civilizations' - it is present in many civilizations/cultures.
On the 'isolated' thing, I tend to agree with you (based on my personal experience of living in several cultures - but then again, it could be just my personality).
We must stop equivocating. True 'every culture'. However, Western culture enjoys seeing the Other suffer.....that is not the same.
Remember what George Clemenceau said over a century ago:
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization."
I think it's more about people-rather than nationalities and cultures. You can find kindness and care in every country or culture- the problem is there just isn't an abundance anywhere.
In Argentina while working there, it seemed common whole families would live on mattresses in city centers. Here in the u.s. people hide their families. We are people without a future if we allow this Genocide to normalize how horribly we treat each other. This is the test of my lifetime. : (
BTW, Argentina is more doomed today than ever. : (
Well no wonder when they elected a complete moron who is more loyal to shitsrael than his own country.
It's the same in the US - they elected Trump. It's also the same in India - they elected Modi.
In fact, there's a pattern here - which the oligarchy exploit. The playbook for authoritarians (in a nutshell) is ->
(1) Give the people limited choices (in terms of political parties/representation)
(2) Ensure those 'limited choices' don't represent what the majority wants (eg. neither democrats nor republicans represent the wants/needs of the american people)
(3) Use austerity strategies to make economic life difficult for the people being ruled over (eg. gutting of social services, healthcare, legal representation, protection from exploitation, economic hardships, etc.)
(4) Use FEAR to further demoralize the public and create moral panics
(5) Use the moral panics (eg. blaming immigrants, blacks, etc.) to divide the people and make them fight against each other instead of against power
(6) Use all the illusions available, gaslighting, and the moral panics created to present UNFAVORABLE and LIMITED choices (eg. harris or trump)
(7) Then present yourself as the (FAKE) savior of the people (eg. like Trump does in America, Milei in Argentina, Modi in India, etc.)
In such an environment, 'common people' make bad decisions - like electing the WORST leaders possible (the list of such leaders is seemingly endless and is present in most countries globally at some point or another in history).
>>"In Argentina while working there, it seemed common whole families would live on mattresses in city centers."
Is that because of 'personal choice' or 'culture' or is it because of 'economic necessity'?
Sadly, economic necessity. I didn't see as much at that in Chile. I wrote a story, Heroes of the Mountain. My co-workers during Covid were having coffee in one of my favorite places on the mountain. A friend asks what can we do? No response. He yells, WHAT CAN WE DO? Long short story short, friends asks his Sister a teacher, she refers them to a family living in the street with a Daughter who is very bright. They build them a cabin, water, power, internet. A bicycle for the Father to search for work. They had a toilet something they didn't think they would have of their own again. The world is a fucked up place my friend : ( I love those people like family. Each one a hero doing the work of what it is to be human. I cry when I tell the story.
Read “Kicking Away the Ladder” by Ha Joon Chang.
"So many people are frustrated, hungry, homeless, feeling isolated. What kind of a civilization does that to its citizens?"
All of them. At least, to greater or lesser extent. Because no matter what the design of government, all of them, sooner or later, succumb to the iron law of oligarchy, and the dark side of that law is allowing intelligent psychopaths to worm their ways into position, and eat away.
There are some here who seem to think some (new-and-improved?) form of socialism (or communism) will do wonders, but I've never heard it explained how psychopathy is to be permanently controlled to achieve state-state. There are some (not many here, I believe) who think libertarianism (a form of anarchy) will do it, but likewise, they do not account for control of the warlords who inevitably take over. Both approaches already have plenty of historical experience, even if the ideology was imperfectly realized those experiences have provided a revelation of what really happens to societies.
One cannot change the range of destructive human nature and behaviors. One can only change the way we confront and control that range, instead of believing in Pollyanna idea of universal love that comes when the structure is changed.
Because it can.
India has become the most unequal society in the world (https://visionias.in/blog/current-affairs/india-equality-paradox-world-bank-places-india-among-worlds-most-equal-societies), with the most brutal form of neoliberal capitalism (yes, worse than that of many Western nations).
Another ref: Why India Is Now the World’s Most Unequal Society | Modi’s India Documentary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8mxq83M7rw)
Things got much worse in India as it got friendly with the west and zionist shitsrael. Now you see the results.
You're definitely right about that. India began its neoliberal journey in the early 90s (about the same time as when the Cold War ended and the dissolution of the Soviet Union). Russia too was badly impacted by Western neoliberal Capitalism.
Doesn't that title belong to Israel and its apartheid state and the treatment of the indigenous population of Palestine, while lying about its ancestry in order to build towards its world rule?
If anyone place deserves tgat distinction, surely it's zionist Israel?
Israel, as it exists today, is an invention of the British and American Empires. Without the continuing sponsorship of the US Government, Eretz Israel would cease to exist.
The genocide could be over in 10 minutes. Trump could call Netanyahu. Tell him go back to 1948 lines or 1968 any line. Then send the same air force he put on IRAN. Instantly done. But he would probably need to actually drop the bombs as well.
Trump would only need to drop one big bomb to let Yahu know he’s serious if the invasion of Palestine didn’t end within ten minutes.
I agree with every word but would add that this was/is an invention with clear intention to commit long-term fraud and robbery. This is why I try to call their creation "Israel" rather than Israel.
Israeli professor Shlomo Sand calls it “Eretz Israel” to distinguish it from the mythical Israel of the Bible.
Apartheid inequality is different from non-apartheid inequality. For example, even the U.S. has a form of apartheid inequality (you have likely heard the term Jim Crow South). Same in the case of apartheid South Africa.
The inequality in India is across the board (all religions/peoples) and is based on the system of neoliberal capitalism (not racism). There has always been inequality in India (eg. caste system, dalits, and more recently Muslims and immigrants), but ever since Modi (and his BJP party) came into power, inequality in the country has ramped up significantly.
The British Empire had a huge influence upon India’s caste system that institutionalized inequality.
The USA, arising from the British Empire, also has a caste system that is far less visible than India’s.
Check my comment here -> https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/western-civilization-is-not-worth/comment/150241263
Ohhhh right the wonderful western civilization that gives us new iPhone models every year for a small price of producing constant wars, killing millions, and destroying Earth while bringing misery to all. No human system will ever be perfect but western civilization is pure evil.
Good on you,Nick Douglas!
10,000 years old western civilization? Didn't know that Germany, France, UK, US, etc. are in Africa.
Well, what nonwestern civilization killed millions?
As for one example of a better one, I could name dozens of American tribes--let's just settle on the Haudenosaunee/Iroquois. That was a confederation of seven tribes that made rules to prevent wars, and lived in peace with the rest of Creation--as most all indigenous peoples do--it's only "civilization" that announces that we humans (of some male humans) own the rest of creation, have "conquered" it. It's western civilization that has us on track for human extinction by the end of the century--no other society even tried for that, what a glorious achievement!
Many better human systems existed but the aggressive genocidal evil western system destroyed them in its pursuit of world dominance and insatiable materialism.
Yes the supremacist judeo-nazi western civilization has introduced mass killing, cheating and stealing
on industrial scale. No one else comes close.
Umm, India was colonized by western civilization (the Brits). You don't think that has reverberations to today? Their system was heavily influenced by the west, and continues to be.
Not always. And it's not like India's caste system is all that different from the class system in the west, it's just more loosely structured in the west. Like you don't think people from wealthy families doesn't come with social status, better career opportunities, better lifestyle, intermarriage between wealthy families? Come on. Britain for example still has the monarchy, dukes and duchesses, that all comes with inherent privileges. Caste system is class system by another name.
'Self hatred' is a right wing extremists term to deflect from any intellectualally sound argument that challenges their fundamentalism.
You obviously have never been.
Not that British colonialism has had anything to do with the current state of the subcontinent, just as it has with almost all the other partitioned, war-torn locations.
Many times? What's your point?
Try looking at the population of India compared to the USA!
Who is "we"? The workers of the West have been and are oppressed too. It is the capitalist ruling class that has despoiled the planet. To blame the oppressed as well as the oppressers, to ignore the realities of class exploitation, only furthers confusion and despair. Liberalism has failed. The goal of Socialism is the liberation of the global working class. That is worth saving indeed.
Comrade... You can't save something you've never had. There has never been a liberated global working class, and no government of the west is socialist. So while your position is valid, it's not an argument against Johnstone's point so much as it is an exposition of what you'd like to replace our current western civilization with.
You are right.
"The goal of Socialism is the liberation of the global working class."
Until you find a way -- prior to any revolution -- of controlling intelligent psychopaths, this dream can never happen.
many defenders of either will indeed use those concepts interchangeably. i don't know of anyone ever claiming that marxism or socialism is one of the great achievements of western civilisation.
Both Marxism and socialism are weapons jews use to destroy western civilization.
guess the author of the following quote: “the jewish doctrine of marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight. thus it denies the worth of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the basis of its existence and culture. as a foundation of the universe, marxism would lead to the end of any order in the world.”, same as this one:
“by defending myself against the jew, i am fighting for the work of the lord… the jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics and never a religion… the jew is the spider that slowly sucks the people’s blood out of the pores of the national body. marxism is the present jewish form of destruction.”, and consider you might be down in some rabbit hole (and then how you got there).
You seem to be arguing against yourself. The author was a socialist. Anarchists are socialists. Bakunin, the anarchist whom Marx defeated to gain control of the Internationale was a socialist, and compared "the People's State of Marx" to a Rothschild bank. Socialists do not object to the ownership of private property, they object to the owners of the private property distorting the economy. As Michael Hudson, called the world's foremost economist by former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts, notes, Marx was a classical economist. Engels, managing a family factory, saw first hand, the effects of what was causing the degenerative situation of the working class in Manchester. Their observations were correct, the solutions not.
If you want a quote from another socialist who predicted the future, this may be it: “Humanity would sink into eternal darkness, it would fall into a dull and primitive state, were the Jews to win this war. They are the incarnation of that destructive force that in these terrible years has guided the enemy war leadership in a fight against all that we see as noble, beautiful, and worth keeping. For that reason alone the Jews hate us. They despise our culture and learning, which they perceive as towering over their nomadic worldview. They fear our economic and social standards, which leave no room for their parasitic drives.”
― Joseph Goebbels
Hitler was NOT a socialist. Both Wolff and Hudson agree that because of the influence of the Communist revolution in Russia and the horrible inflation that Germany suffered in the '20s, the Communists had a lot of influence on the general public. One could not form a successful new political party without the word "Socialist" in its name.
Wolff also calls Marx a classical economist and does a pretty good job of explaining the failures of the Friedman derivative of economics which only exists because it is what the Oligarchy wants to hear. You don't get a job as an economist unless you are extremely smart, like Wolff and Hudson, or because you make stuff up that the Oligarchy can use to steal the wealth created by Labor.
Hudson complains that his book "Superimperialism" was suppose to show the ills of the American economy and neocolonialism but the CIA turned it into a "How to" manual.
hitler nor goebbels were socialists. the goebbels quote is also another nice reference to the previous post of caitlin ("the arabs hate us because of our religion" is the new "they hate us for our freedom"). nobody ever claimed that marxism and socialism were great achievements of western civilisation because the actual 'centrist' (fascism light) elites would not allow it.
That sounds like we need to support Socialism more.
Before the rise of capitalism, there was feudalism wherein monarchs and emperors “owned” all of the material capital— primarily land and all of the land’s resources. Serfs and slaves provided labor.
So, Western civilization was either based upon feudalism or capitalism. It is extremely difficult to distinguish the differences.
Accurate, but not complete. The guild systems, craft and trade, were in place for hundreds of years. The monarchial power dwindled, as the merchant class (trade guilds) gained more power, literally buying titles and estates. The individual craft guilds carpenters, joiners, stone masons, blacksmiths, farriers, cobblers, hostlers, drovers, etc. controlled the means of production. The craft guilds were local, as virtually all commerce was local. The trade that wasn't local shifted to the merchant guilds, of which most were raw materials such as wool. In order for capitalism to take hold, the craft guilds had to be dismantled to allow "capital" to own the means of production and usher in the industrial revolution. In many respects, large estates were like vertically integrated local economies and largely self sufficient, as the maintenance of the estates fell to local crafts. Certainly not a perfect system, but then, there is no perfect system.
The American labor unions were a good start toward the concept of the crafts guilds but were stifled by the bipartisan Taft Hartley Act of 1947 and a concerted propaganda campaign by big industry.
The European “works councils” are better than nothing, but not at the level of the old guilds.
FWIW: I think certain unions, like electrical workers and plumbers, who are well represented by individuals and small businesses do a good job of representing their members.
Joti Brar of the UK communists is often on Garland Nixon. She explains quite well the transitions to and from feudalism to capitalism. And she explains what is happening in Western economies now. Her version is much like Yanis Varoufakis' description of technofeudalism and neo-serfdom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPyhkLic6IA&
Thanks for that link. Everyone on this thread should listen to Joti Bar on that great podcast episode that packs History, Economics and Current Events into one lecture.
Famous quote from Gandhi (from 1931, at a conference in England)
Interviewer: "What do you think of Western civilization?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a very good idea."
That was the first thought that came into my mind when I saw the headline on this article!
Thank you for this, forceOfHabit. This quote by Gandhi, which I had never heard before, would be so funny if it weren't so true.
Loved Gandhi, way back I was asked who did I most admire in history. Surprised them when I said Gandhi, a man of principles, and who stuck to them.
If only we had a Gandhi as a leader in each country, what a glorious difference it would make to the world, in so many ways.
That quote is FALSELY attributed to Gandhi.
More info: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/23/good-idea/
Doesn't negate the meaning, though.
I wasn't born until 1940, so didn't hear him say it when it was apparently said, however I remember quite well seeing it on an old Pathe News item where he said, it and it stuck in my mind. And I do not mean from the film after his death. It was about when he visited the textile companies and the workers cheered him on.
I believe you, Davina.
👏👏This is to you Carolyn L Zaremba!
Who says it (especially when it is from a historically important personality) matters greatly.
Why? Does truth depend on who utters it? And as Michael Hall points out below, Gandhi had some reprehensible beliefs of his own. Does that affect the truth of what he says?
>>"Why?"
Seriously? You're talking about truth and in the same sentence asking why truth is important?
>>"Does truth depend on who utters it?"
And since when are 'opinions' considered 'truth' or 'facts'?
If, according to you, truth doesn't matter, then anyone can attribute a quote to anyone they please, and then use the excuse 'oh, it's the truth so it doesn't matter if that person said it or didn't'.
I can't resist once more pointing out your defective reading comprehension. Asking
"Does truth depend on who utters it?"
is in no way, shape, or form the same as asking
"...why truth is important."
You really are special.
That quote sounds very much like something Gandhi would say, and it would not surprise me if those not in agreement(such as our ruling class) would deny he said it. I wonder how much Qhoteinvestigator.com charges for the desired results. In today's America EVERTHING can be bought at a price. At least that is the impression I have.
>>"That quote sounds very much like something Gandhi"
It's irrelevant what YOU think Gandhi would say, just as it would be irrelevant what someone thinks 'someone might say' as a way to justify facts.
That's how lies and rumors spread. That's how misinformation spreads. The 'I think this sounds like the truth' without the 'verification part' is what leads to a 'post-truth' society where people are prone to believe whatever they wish without real evidence.
Chang - I am so glad I don't know you. You sound like the US government which considers it irrevelant what Americans think.
Strawman argument and misrepresentation of my argument. Everyone is free and entitled to their own 'opinions', but not to their own 'facts'.
Such thinking is one reason we have people like 'Trump' with his 'alternative facts'.
Your link says "QI would say that the quote is not well-supported and may be apocryphal." not that it is "FALSELY attributed to Gandhi".
So if Gandhi didn't say it, or something closely approximating it, where did it come from, and why do so many varied voices attribute it to him? Your article does not suggest any alternative sources.
So unless your theory is that some nameless reporter spontaneously came up with it on his own, credited it to Gandhi for some reason, and then lots of different sources picked up on that original confabulation, I think its reasonable to give Gandhi the credit.
>>" where did it come from"
Where do rumors come from? Where does false information come from? Where does misinformation and disinformation come from?
Did you even read the link? Apparently not from your comment.
I know it's a mistake to engage with you because once you have seized on an idea it's impossible to get you to think twice, but its so much fun I can't resist. Yes I read the link. That's where the quote:
"QI would say that the quote is not well-supported and may be apocryphal."
comes from. Unlike you, my reading comprehension is excellent thank you.
So what does 'not well-supported' mean to you? Use evidentiary logic.
What is the difference between 'fact' and 'fiction'? If there is not enough valid, vetted, evidence (same applies in science), then you do not get to 'rename your opinions' as facts.
Gandhi was an elitist prick who hated black Africans and promoted the caste system. Look it up.
No doubt. But he was also one of the most successful freedom fighters of all time, getting the Indian nation out from under the rapacious thumb of the British Empire without resorting to violence. One problem at a time...we are none of us perfect.
Note that Ghandi railed against the caste system.
Gandhi opposed untouchability and advocated for the rights of lower castes, referring to them as "harijans" or "children of God." However, he did not fully reject the caste system itself, believing it had a role in Hindu society, which led to criticism from other leaders like B.R. Ambedkar.
You mean unlike the wealth is not only good (for us)it means we get to be top dogs and avoid paying tax, that system?
Western philosophy is unfortunately not the only civilization that needs a complete overhaul of its dysfunctional issues. The malaise is an international condition and can be readily ldentified by the absolute international silence of the Gaza genocide.
At present, there are about 12,000 nuclear warheads awaiting launching orders., yet, if anyone reading these posts has even mentioned the greatest threat ever faced by our species in the past year, hats off to you because the international silence is absolute.
A quibble, maybe, but the silence is not absolute. South Africa charged them with genocide over a year ago, other countries have signed on, people and unions have been standing against it--the UN, which was formed to prevent wars and genocide, was compromised at the outset by the Security Council, formed of nuclear powers, which could veto any action.
Mary, every one of your comments is valid and solidly anchored. There is one element however that creates all the world’s silence, Money. When the smoke of passionate rhetoric clears, the only thing that matters to anyone who wishes to survive in human jungles is Money, followed by. Money, and ending with Money.
I love the spirit of your comments, but until people start to talk about the most important thing that rules their life, nothing will change. Credit scores outweigh moral scores everywhere, for everything.
I have heard a story, which is perhaps a myth, that Mohatma Ghandi, when asked what he thought about Western Civilization, responded by saying that he thought it would be a good idea. I do not know if that actually happened, but it such a perfect answer that I resist finding out if it is truth or myth. In fact, there is nothing civilized about "the West" at all. In fact, "the West" was built on aggression, colonialism and genocide, which is to say raw power. That is the opposite of civilized behavior. The colonialists manufactured the myth of "Western Civilization" via propaganda which said that those being conquered were incapable of governing themselves and that, by providing "leadership" (which usually meant the slaughter of anyone in the conquered country who opposed the takeover of their country), the conquering country would improve the lives of the conquered by "civilizing" them. My Country, the US, has now truly exposed its true colors by supporting, in fact, enabling, the genocide of the Palestinians. Those who know US history should not find this surprising since the US was only able to expand its territory westward by conducting the genocide of the American Indians. The US is now a rogue state which routinely violates international law and our own Constitution. Those holding high positions in our government are mostly ignorant of even our own history and certainly ignorant of world history. Moreover, they are totally corrupt and self-serving. They have no interest in diplomacy. They are in government to steal as much money as possible. Otherwise, they serve no purpose at all.
Beautifully put Jim. Perhaps there was no history before the USA, and thus there was no history before the rugged individual American ego, and Ayn Rand, and hence there is Elon Musk, who created everything, and who started out in apartheid South Africa, and who possibly left for the land of the brave and the free because unlike them he couldn't destroy the indigenous people on his continent of origin. But we'll see. What is Gaza, after all?
Excuse the bitterness, please.
Read “Peoples’ History of the United States” by Howard Zinn.
I have read it. It is great.
“This civilization is genocidal. Ecocidal. Omnicidal. Imperialist. Racist. Dehumanizing. Degrading. Dystopian. Emotionally stunted. Culturally vapid. Spiritually impoverished.” Three more: Supremacist, Colonial, and therefore apartheid(al). The first makes the last two impossible to confess. “I can’t be narcissistic, I am perfect.” THE Judaeo Christian motto.
I was just thinking today that there is an ethic on the part of rightwing Christians (and probably Zionist Jews) in which they equate their religious affiliation with virtue, and thus think they needn't bother about morality.
I have trouble seeing zionist Jews as anything much when their rabbis are telling them rape of children is a blessing - as long as the child has had their third birthday - how very generous to hold off that long to pierce that little body by an adult male's penis, when we know that rape at any age is torture - ask any adult female who has been raped, if she thought rape a blessing or a curse, especially when it was multiple heinous bastards enjoying the act?
Not all rabbis. Show us your data.
I don' know, but I feel sure that it's not All rabbis. And I have never heard of Jews drinking the blood of Christian babies and I can't believe that either.
Really? I am skeptical rabbis are saying anything like this. I doubt even one rabbi has said this.
It is widely known and as far as I know has never been denied that rabbis have said and done such things.
Odd, then, that this is the first I've heard of it--despite such absurdities as "Jews drink the blood of Christian babies" being known.
They needn’t be rightwing nor zionist. The assumption being exposed right now is that Judaeo Christianity is the apex, the best of the best. But London Bridge is falling down…. all at once.
Mary, I believe you are on to something here. Whether we believe that Jesus Christ was a myth or if he truly walked the earth, if we would actually adhere to the basic teachings he espoused: "loving your neighbor as yourself", "do unto others as you would have done unto you", "judge not lest you be judged", this world would be heaven on earth. The problem is, man's pride will not allow him to seek out the true good of his fellow man; rather, he wishes to lord it over others, under the guise of a religious affiliation, etc. The Pharisees of Jesus's time were exactly that. Jesus pronounced them "dead men's bones in whited sepulchers" and "a brood of vipers."
They are still amongst us today.
The question is - what is anyone going to do about it?
The rulers have the guns and the money and the soft power.
I wish we would go Haitian on the pack of them. Perhaps such a temporary reprieve of the irreplaceable virtue of decency can be temporarily suspended in view of the collective monstrosity congealed around despicable character formations like those of Lindsay Graham? This will no doubt not be televised as the spokesmen of the monstrosity will be among the first sprawling over their desks in the sticky pools of blood poured from their ripped throats where they kept their organs of mendacity. Sigh.
I was going to reply to your previous post about the elites vs the working classes being a romanticised and out-dated concept. But you seem to be rightly including us all; the enormous western middle classes, we also fly around (if only on commercial flights) and surf on the labour of the serfs.
The modern day serfs or working classes, who work in shops, delivery, slaughter houses, meat packing and anything that can't be automated, are First Nation people in the colonies, immigrants to Western countries from formerly colonised and stolen from countries, and factory workers in neo-colonised countries where unions are suppressed to keep them poor and goods cheap.
Opposing capitalism can't be separated from opposing colonisation.
The rise of the middle classes in the Global Majority is squeezing the western middle class but we still have pretty luxurious lives.
A revolution would involve decolonisation and a massive decline in the Western economy and the material wealth of the middle class. We may protest about Palestine but our inevitable impoverishment with the growth of mulitpolarity isn't going to be so popular.
The multipolar world without Western civilisation is still going to have to grapple with the major problem of materialism and growth on a finite planet. Not to mention the climate crisis. Only a concerted global effort to stop making and using so much stuff will save humanity. The influence of materialism on everyone all over the world, especially as they have been denied it by the West, is too strong I fear.
All true BUT a globally equal society could actual confer better lives on the middle classes of the wealthy nations. Having a lot of stuff isn't everything. Pulling the plug on the constant stream of advertising and PR, to let fresh air into our heads, would allow people to see how thoroughly we've been fracked. What's it worth to "live luxurious lives" when you're afraid of everyone else, bombarded with messages of fear and loathing, have to kowtow to "your superiors" at work, have to hide realities from your children, have high cancer rates because of what you're exposed to, etc.? The rates of depression, suicide, addiction show just what it's worth.
Added to the problem is Evangelicalism and it's "wealth means you are closer to God" and you are saved by some guy calling himself a pastor and reading from the revised bible, given free when he becomes a pastor. The revised "reference bible" first published in 1900, that makes all the claims the zionists dictated to a convicted criminal on his conversion to Judaism, and is now used as the excuse for killing Palestinians while stealing the land they finally decided out if all their shopping around, they could steal Palestine, the country without a standing army, so with the least hope of fighting back.
Once apon a time people happily used barter to survive and it worked well until someone, who would later start a bank, devised money should be the favoured exchange between us. There was a trial started again where we could exchange things or tasks with expach other then employers sided with the banks and started paying wages/ salaries directly into bank accounts so everyone needed to open an account that allowed this, and we know where it went from there...
Calvinism is a wonderful concept that absolves humans of responsibility for wealth, poverty, ethics, environmental destruction, etc.
No, each of us is, or should be, responsible for our own actions. It always bothered me that RCs could happily go to confession and then merrily go out and do the same stuff again. Also the "get out of gaol free" card that allowed priests to hear murderers confess and not have to report it to police. No man or woman on earth can absolve you from your crimes, so that you can repeat them.
I neglected to add “ /s “
🤔
The love of money and the love of power are the roots of all evil and oppression in the world.
It's baked in at this point and very little pushback.
Western civilization, as represented by Voltaire and the finest minds of the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, is definitely worth saving..It's the best this planet has produced...There is no substitute...but the cracks that started appearing in the late 19th and were depicted by writers like Dostoevsky, Kafka, Camus and Chesterton have mutated into an oligarchy that needs perpetual war to flourish...Either we get rid of that oligarchy and its promoters, or they will s destroy civilization as we know it and replace it with tech feudalism....
The Chinese, the Arabs, India also had great civilisations.
The warmongering whites went out and "civilized" them through military supremacy.
That's how the west became rich and developed.
Ever heard of Genghis Khan, the Huns, the Muslim invasions, the Turks, American Indian tribes slaughtering each other and taking territory... This is **human** history, these are **human** failings, not simply "western" or "white" failings ... You dumb fucks.
Dirty mouth blocked.
And he talks about supremacy from others 🤣
Michael Hall, please apply your insults - 'you dumb fucks' - to yourself.
My dear, we are not "dumb fucks." Do you really believe that just because Genghis Khan, the Huns, muslims, the Turks and Indian tribes have done it in the distant past, that justifies and gives us carte blanche to do all these horrible things today?
A typical response from a US knuckle dragger.
Unable to construct a coherent sentence, let alone an argument, a list of "whatabouts" is spewed out, followed by an insult, usually with a "fuck" thrown in.
Typical clueless moron with nothing to say so they attack your grammar instead (which is just fine BTW) What makes you think I'm in the US you clown?
to Richard and Michael - I am not sure if you are addressing me or someone else, but I can assure you that I am not a US knuckle dragger nor a clueless moron nor a clown. FYI, I have several degrees, BA, MA, and Ph.D, all on scholarships and fellowships. Among my jobs was teaching at the Defense Language Institute, and also translating for the govt (CIA and FBI) (I assume, they never told me who they were). I also worked for 10 years for our local hospital as Administrative Assistant.
Every civilisation has good points and bad points. It is natural for people to see the good points of their own civilisation, and not so aware of its bad points.
The main things that people need as they think about their own and other civilisations, are humility, and an awareness of how much power corrupts.
👍🙏
It seems to me that we are already there, that we already live under AI supported tech feudalism.
The apex of western endeavors has been to perfect ways of killing each other and/or destroying the planet altogether.
Always was, but "should" never had anything to do with it.
This ever always only was a question of power. Nothing more.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Also, corruptible people seem to be more attracted to power too.
Power is a drug that some people are more addicted to.
True!
Check this book out if you have the time: "Corruptible: Who Gets Power and How it Changes Us" by Brian Klass (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59220130-corruptible)
AND/OR this YouTube video->Why do we get the wrong leaders? Brian Klaas at Science and Cocktails (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_Oab42VZRE) and "Why psychopaths rise to power | Brian Klaas" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpyIZ4DGIK8)
Chang, I believe you're right. Only a person with psychopathic tendencies wishes to rule over other people. But the other thing that needs to be considered here is the numerous men and women who enable and empower the elite to rule over the plebs by "obeying their orders" and will willingly commit heinous crimes on their fellow human beings, all in the name of "just doing my job."
Power is to sociopaths what catnip is to cats. In fact, regardless of the system, power inevitably ends up in the hands of sociopaths, because sociopaths are the ones who will do whatever it takes to get power.
ALL power is corrupt. No exceptions.
At the same time, power is What Gets Shit Done.
Moreover, you can't make it go away.
You can't toss The One Ring into Mout Doom and the problem is fixed. Rather, even if you don't pick up The Ring, someone else will, and you may not like what they do with it.
For that matter, if you do pick up The Ring, you will be swarmed with Gollums looking to get themselves a piece a that. They aren't always so obvious.
The Fourth Estate USED TO BE the method for holding their feet to the fire, speaking Truth to Power. That is so over now. ALL power needs continuous push-back.
Mao was correct when he taught that power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
Depends what you mean by Western Civilisation. It’s an amorphous collection of ideas. There are some great aspects to Western Civ - innocent before proven guilty, anti-slavery, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and a lot more.
No one actually decides how society will be. We don’t steer the ship. Caitlin always appears to be hoping for some kind of mass awakening, some elevation of consciousness in the masses. Well … that would be nice but given the titanic forces of capitalism/consumerism, propaganda, law and societal pressures it seems unlikely. LSD in the water supply?
Those "qualities" are merely used as propaganda for several reasons, the main two, imo,
1. To give the whites a feeling of supremacy.
2. To denigrate the global south, in order to portray them as inferior, lesser humans, and therefore only fit for exploitation.
Both of these come together to be used to gain consent to go to war.
Borell the Gardener spelled it out publicly.
"Josep Borell, the European Union's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, compared Europe to a garden – and most of the world to a jungle – in a speech at the European Diplomatic Academy in Bruges, Belgium.
“Europe is a garden. We have built a garden… The rest of the world… is not exactly a garden. Most of the rest of the world is a jungle. The jungle could invade the garden. The gardeners should take care of it”
In plain speech from the top of Europe, Borell calling for the Global South to be "cut back like weeds encroaching on the white paradise".
He must have been a zionist Jew, no one feels more superior than them.
Dunno, but there are more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones.
Not all civilisations are equal. The accomplishments of the White man are numerous. I think we have a lot to be proud of. What have the Romans ever done for us? Borell sounds like he was onto something.
The whities had a period of rapid technological development. I agree with that.
But it was ultimately used to conquer and colonize, preventing the development of India and China, two other great civilisations.
Yeah that's what civilisations tend to do - expand.
Yes, Borrell invented gun powder, didn't create an opium epidemic in China, never destroyed the highly evolved Indian cotton industry, made the white man in the image of Donald Trump, and never once left off trimming his rose bushes after bringing tons of compost to them with his own superior little hands.
All those things that you mention as positive in Western civilization are applied selectively and thus fake. West is a supremacist mafia-style kakistocracy. Freedom of speech, anti-slavery, etc. - you must be kidding!
Yeah I know but the idea is good.
You obviously have no idea how bad life was for ordinary Tibetan people under the Lamas.
Native culture of Tibet, before Han takeover. Dalai Lama, etc. The full opposite of the military-industrial-congressional complex, which NEEDS the next "threat," the next War, until the Final Conflagration (coming soon).
How is the Dalai Lama any different from the Pope? How is Tibetan Buddhism any better or different than Roman Catholicism ... Except that the latter is the authentic culture of your ancestors while the former is just an illusion seen through an Orientalist lens.
You cannot be serious, look at the crimes of child rape by priests and the cover-ups and moving them around that still goes on. My carer is buddhist, every time she enters my home she brings sunshine in her smile, she is a fun person, nothing is too much trouble. When I give her things because they don't work for me, she brings something that will on her next visit, she drove me to a hospital appointment on her day off, I did not ask her to, but so glad she did because I was in shock when told I needed surgery and she was soon supportive to me and got me through that day. The one I had before was more interested talking about herself, in fact she never stopped, could I get a word in? No way. I asked, no demanded, she not come back then got my present one and she is wonderful.
The monks killing the Rohingya in Myanmar are Buddhist. The Japanese kamikaze were Buddhist. Thai monks selling drugs and involved in sex scandals are Buddhist. What's your point. A tiny minority of Catholic priests were involved in child abuse, which is found everywhere in every culture.
And there are no doubt many wonderful Catholic carers out there as well.
Your carer sounds wonderful, you are fortunate to have her. But she's only one person, there are plenty of "Buddhist" child abusers out there as well
This statement is 100% Correct. For years I've come to that conclusion, but was holding out hope that it might change but sadly it has only got worse and getting even more so .They don't listen to the people anymore they just do whatever they want because the powers that be has grown more bold arrogant, as they seize and restrict the right of the people, who really has no power to stop them. I never thought I would live to see the day where America is fully and without shame supporting a Genocide of Powerless Humans, where pleading and begging to stop the Genocide is now seen as unpatriotic and a Crime .Western civilization has now really now gone fully over to the DARK SIDE and they don't care and seem mighty proud of it. It has become a Morally and Spiritually Bankrupt entity
Yes, Caitlin, when profit for the few takes precedence over everything else, when the politics are determined by the power of the strongest (power through deterrence), then there is no longer any room for humanism and ecology. No longer any room for people like Greta Thunberg, you, or me. We are ridiculed as left-wing, anti-Semitic crackpots and supporters of terrorists. That is the narrative. With the full backing of the Western media.
Unfortunately, there is no powerful international counter-movement that would be supported by China, for example. They, too, are now only concerned with Western-adapted values.
WE NEED A FUNDAMENTAL REVOLUTION. NOW!
Fuck you, bot!🖕✌️🇵🇸
"We don’t need to rescue western civilization from outside forces, we need to rescue ourselves from western civilization."
It's imperative Westerners escape their abusive relationship with their culture, ASAP. Western civilization will destroy the entire planet if it continues much longer. It cares not for wildlife or clean water. It cares not for helping its neighbors. It wants only one thing: profits over people and planet. Time to shut it down for good!
Western civilization does not do this. Capitalism does.
What is "Western civilization" if it's not a culture that perpetuates the idea that profits are infinitely more important than living things? The two words are synonymous, IMO.
TRC, it is not 'the culture', it is the 'economic and political' system of Capitalism. You will observe the SAME effects in other Capitalist countries (to different extents based on the variety and stage of capitalism).
Profits (and the need to maximize profits and growth at any costs) is a direct consequence of Capitalism, not a 'cultural' by product. This is the same in Asia, Africa, North America, Middle-East, Europe, everywhere Capitalism reigns supreme.
Chang yes but at some point the political-economic system infiltrates and becomes a prevailing culture. It is a parasitic system. All other values are forgotten and replaced by infinite greed and search of profit. Just look at the West today. It is a blob that eats itself from inside. It is inhumane and unsustainable. As an inherently structurally unstable system it will self-destruct or be destroyed by a better system.
Yes, but the root of that parasitic system is the money it runs on. When money can be created endlessly, greed becomes the dominant value and everything else erodes. The West shows this clearly today. The way out is not just waiting for collapse, but building on a better foundation: money that cannot be manipulated.
Well said. The political-economic system becomes the prevailing culture. It becomes a culture of greed, of elites and the downtrodden. No matter where it occurs, capitalism brings the sickness of greed from the West and destroys the native culture. That's why I say capitalism = Western culture. You can't really have one without the other.
Nick, I observe the SAME effects in non-western cultures too. The economic system affects the culture and the culture affects the economic system - both of them influence each other.
Having lived in other cultures (besides the West), I can attest to so many things that are common in these cultures (and some things that are different).
I'm not defending 'Western culture' here, I'm simply saying that it is not easy to define 'what exactly' is unique to ONLY Western culture (genocide happens in multiple cultures - Sudan, Armenia, Myanmar - Rohingya, etc, profits and exploitation is global, imperialism has been practiced by multiple cultures - Japanese, Middle-Eastern, Russian, Chinese, Eastern European, etc., racism is prevalent in multiple cultures as is colorism, women and children are exploited in multiple cultures - patriarchy, etc.).
I understand. I also lived in many places. And while no human made system will ever be perfect, or even close to it, the genocidal evil western culture is the worst of all. Cannot stand their fake humanity, hypocrisy, "democracy", lies, cheats,
supremacist racist ideology and posture. shitsrael is their creation and that also tells me everything about the western "civilization".
This is now dominant. But when I was a boy it was different.
Capitalism is a tool of western culture. Capitalism is only a few hundred years old--long before that there was slavery, genocide, wars of conquest, social classes, exploitation, environmental damage. You can find all these things outside western culture, but they're rare, not the norm--which has been imposed virtually everywhere in the world so it's hard now to point to an abusive society and say it's non-western.
Love it. We all need to be rescued from the sick cancerous western "civilization".
Michael Hall, Certainly not by you.
Touchè Einstein
Why would any sane person want this to continue? The usual response is that there is no alternative. And many people do, in fact, believe it — or, out of fear of the unknown, come to believe it.
Yes there are alternatives. All better. This is western propaganda that there are no alternatives making themselves irreplaceable. BS. Western civilization is not only not worth saving but it must be discarded if the humanity is to survive. So there is NO alternative but to get rid of western zionist genocidal system forever. Will be remembered in the history books as the darkest and ugliest period of humanity.
Cuba. They're impoverished, because of a lifetime of US blockade, but they still have better health and educational outcomes than the US, on a tenth of the money. Their location subjects them to a lot of hurricanes, but they rarely lose anyone, because when the hurricane is approaching, the government sends buses and trucks to take everyone--with their livestock and pets--to safety. They use their surplus of trained medics to help endangered people all over the world. So here's an alternative--stop harassing Cuba, reward them for the medical beneficence, and take them as a model for healing the sick societies to the north.
👏To Mary Wildfire.
The first thing I thought when I read the title is "What we have now IS NOT western civilization, but something else. I wouldn't even call it "civilized", because it is any but. The root word of civilization is "civil", which DOES NOT describe what we see. What we see is much more like gangs of barbarians. Don't let their technology fool you. At their core they are at best brutes and bullies, at worst complete psychopaths. Literally.
I am speaking of most of the governments of the collective west. The governments of the UK, Germany, France, Austria, and Australia are essentially insane asylums at this point. We see them coddling the criminals and arresting and jailing the victims. For them down is up, good is bad. THAT is who I'm speaking of.