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Vin LoPresti's avatar

Just watched the Aljazeera documentary, "the Day Israel Attacked America" about the USS Liberty attack. Had you any illusions about how deep the bullshite can be piled, watch this 45 minutes for two sobering hits: First: that LBJ's administration was likely assisting Israel in committing war crimes -- against his own country -- way back in '67, at the cost of American lives because it served the empire politically. Second: With all due respect and condolences to those sailors, I nonetheless find it infuriating that their 70-something selves can still be "plugged in to that worldview" as you frame it, still salute that flag that screwed them as though they were so much merda.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/featured-documentaries/2014/10/30/the-day-israel-attacked-america

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Realist's avatar

"First: that LBJ's administration was likely assisting Israel in committing war crimes -- against his own country -- way back in '67, at the cost of American lives because it served the empire politically."

No, likely about it. You can't intelligently read his actions any other way.

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

I probably should've added that US administrations have been kissing Zionist backsides for longer than some folks might think, with Israel always lying in the same direction regardless of whom the bloody pigs maim or murder. Their explanation for the attack? It was a terrible accident.

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blackbird's avatar

Can this somehow add the dots to those who want to know the truth ?

https://fritzfreud.substack.com/p/how-to-impeach-joe-biden-today-and/comments#comment-5744462

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Joy in HK fiFP's avatar

Let’s not forget to charge them with this, 18 U.S. Code § 1091, the law that brought the genocide convention into US law.

They have set the precedent of convicting former presidents, and get this, there’s no statute of limitations on bringing these charges: "an offense under this section, an indictment may be found, or information instituted, at any time without limitation." May they have visions of prison all the days of their lives, and dwell in the House of Corrections forever, and ever amen.

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CarbonCopy's avatar

I knew there was more to this than simple bribery and I thought it would be bad but this is just as bad as it can get! This also explains the one thing that makes you wonder "is there something going on here that Biden knows that they commit crimes right out in the open"! We are indeed screwed!

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@smokygirl2006's avatar

I just watched the documentary on Aljazeera about the USS Liberty and it was very informative. I’m raging inside for what Israel did then and what it’s doing now in Gaza. Our government cares more for Israel than it does the American people. That country gets a pass no matter what it does. It sickens me. Both Israel and the U.S. have too many war criminals in their governments.

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Levi Tate's avatar

LBJ was on a roll.

Before the USS Liberty treachery

there was the Gulf of Tonkin "Incident" and Gulf of Tonkin (WAR) Resolution.

LBJ saw what worked for him.

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Levi Tate's avatar

As evil as LBJ was

we (all) would not be here right now if not for LBJ.

imho

The assassination of JFK was supposed to be the pretext and trigger for an invasion of Castro's Cuba. Elements of The Joint Chiefs of Staff ***wanted*** WWIIII with the USSR

and the invasion of Cuba was designed to escalate into that.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff knew, through a well placed spy, that Khrushchev was bluffing about his ICBM (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile). Khrushchev only had one or two experimental ICBM but claimed that the USSR was producing them "like sausages".

It was bs and the spy had told the Pentagon. The spy also claimed that the USSR **would** be producing them in large numbers within as little as 3 years.

There was a window of opportunity before Khrushchev had ICBM and the Pentagon wanted to knock out the USSR before that window closed. However, Kennedy did not want to go down in history as the world's greatest mass murderer.

So elements of the Joint Chiefs of Staff initiated the conspiracy to get Kennedy out of the way **and** use his assassination as a trigger for taking out the USSR.

Unfortunately for the plotters they brought LBJ into the scheme. He let the plot go only so far. He let them make him President but then he blocked the attack upon Cuba.

imho

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Gnuneo's avatar

That's been my impression too.

It seems being the one holding the trigger to the suicide vest is quite sobering, no matter the hot air beforehand.

Though there ARE plenty who would push it unthinkingly. There is a good reason why you should choose highly intelligent leaders, as China and Russia show.

Britain and America are the "control group" to show what happens when you ignore that vital aspect of leadership.

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

If you were being kind, you might say that our political leaders have tended toward mediocrity. Or, foregoing the kindness, you could say that the USA has a treasure trove of mediocre individuals from which it draws its leaders.

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Gnuneo's avatar

I would say - indeed HAVE said many times over the past 25 years :) - that Western leaders are really "middle-ranked Corporate execs".

They are the goons told to fire workers on 20th Dec, and follow orders. They don't MAKE decisions, they just report them and put their spin on them.

They have bosses above them, and they want to impress them for promotions - and being a lying obedient psychopath is how you advance in the corporate world.

And that's our politicians.

A bunch of mediocre middle-ranked corporate execs who 'follow orders' and exude at a minimum sociopathy.

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gypsy33's avatar

Vin, “mediocre “ is far too complimentary.

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Mark Hovde's avatar

That’s a good summary and the same was well documented by Jim Douglas in his book “JFK The Unthinkable.” Per Douglas, who reviewed the huge archive of documents, CIA, Joint Chiefs, and Cuban mafia were all involved in the JFK assassination.

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CarbonCopy's avatar

LBJ was an agent of Israel. He did not block the attack as Bush was busy with the CIA setting up his island off the coast of Cuba where he still is. They have sent numerous overthrow attempts into the country and failed. Kennedy stopped WW3 not LBJ.

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Timothy Skeers's avatar

Thanks for the link! I will have to check that out. Jimmy Dore had a guy on who was on the USS Liberty and survived. It was interesting. He is very bitter of course, but I did note that he did some of what you said about waving the flag, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h4EUoyZO1I

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CarbonCopy's avatar

These sailors were ordered under penalty of imprisonment! not to say a word about this. THIS IS THE DEPTH OF THE BETRAYAL AND CORRUPTION OF THE US GOVERNMENT! THEY ARE THE ENEMY!

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Jack Lomax's avatar

Well, Israel is actually a totally immoral war machine run by the zionists and the most powerful of the zionists live in the US. Zionism is a cancer on humanity and unless we find some way to dismember it without going to war with it we are doomed to disintegrate as a society under its malign influence. This may not turn out to be as dire as it sounds prima facie. It may only be western society (the US and is satelites) which disintegrate and the most powerful country left China may restate a system not based on profit and war in our sad part of the world

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CarbonCopy's avatar

I am a disabled US Navy Vet. I have been preaching this very thing for a long time! Check my postings! This was an act of WAR! What should have happened was our fleet should first and foremost assisted our ship! LBJ was heard to say "I want that ship on the bottom"! He ordered the fleet to abandon the USS Liberty! Next during the assistance of helping the Liberty they were obligated to attack full force the enemy who is and always has been Israel! The Chief of Naval Operations DUTY AND OATH TO THIS COUNTRY AND TO THIS VERY DAY WAS TO ARREST ALL THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO HAD A HAND IN THIS! THEY ARE ALL TRAITORS AND WAR CRIMINALS! Anyone who says "I stand with Israel" is an enemy agent or a traitor! Israel infiltrated our government and attacking the USS Liberty IS AN ACT OF WAR! The people in this country don't have a fucking clue! The only time We The People ever had a reason to declare war they stopped us!

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

Amen

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Mink's avatar

Re. the sailors still saluting the flag: the flag represents the country, not the government. And the country is one's home, the place one was raised, where one's ancestors are buried. Patriotism -- love of one's country, and willing its good -- is always a virtue. It doesn't necessarily at all have to entail loving one's government. I'm wide awake to what the U.S. government is, but I love America and revere its flag.

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JennyStokes's avatar

Yeah....all correct.

I had a go at commenters on Wash. Post today. Probably 60 people were gung-ho to beat those nasty Russians and 3 talking sense. Not one of the 6O had any idea about what is happening in Ukraine or Russia or how Ukraine happened.

It would be easy to give up but something strong inside me (fairness/empathy) keep me going.

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martin's avatar

indeed, caitlin's assertion about empire's propaganda machine is not hyperbole. education and information seem the first 'means of production' that have to be seized.

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JennyStokes's avatar

Yes.

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Sera's avatar

I had a German father who was half a century ahead of his adopted country. His father was Russian, (‘cancelled’ at Auschwitz.) His thoughts during the “duck and cover” years were that the American people are remarkable in many ways, but should never step beyond their borders, because they have neither the interest nor the education for international relations. It has not improved since then.

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JennyStokes's avatar

I agree.

I have seen many Americans on tour buses all over the world. They very rarely engage with the natives of each country.

I have seen many a young American backpacking in many countries.........wonderful to see.

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

When I was last in Italy -- too long ago, I had a brief conversation with a woman in Venice about US policies in Asia, brief because my Italian then wasn't as strong as now. But I did mange to say "George Bush è  un cretino della prima qualità" - Bush is a first-class idiot. Here eyes bugged out, but I was never sure if it was because an American was criticizing his own govt. or because I was speaking her language and not being the classic shitehead American tourist

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JennyStokes's avatar

I am in Italy a lot. We live halfway between Spain and Italy.

Don't know why we came to France would far rather be in Italy. I can tell you from experience there. She was shocked at American trying to speak Italian.

Molto bello.

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

Mi piace molto parlare Italiano, purtroppo non ho abbastanza opportunità.

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Joy in HK fiFP's avatar

Brava! Io studiato Italiano nella scuola multi anni Passat. Non me recordo niente, nulla.

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bill wolfe's avatar

Give them a link to the Jeff Sachs interview.

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Sera's avatar

I admire Sachs very much and hear his interviews weekly. The problem with MSM victims is that they’ve been so enstupided they automatically accept that anyone who disagrees with NYT/NPR style dogma is simply passing on disinformation or is uninformed. They’ll say this about the most brilliant expert extant without blushing. We’re really up against a wall if willful ignorance.

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Literally Mussolini's avatar

A drop of good news in a seeming ocean of bad:

I had my wife listen to the Sachs interview while she was taking her walk this morning. She was skeptical. ("Who is this guy? Another of those radicals you follow on the internet?") But she came back and found him credible--dare I say, even convincing.

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bill wolfe's avatar

He's a tenured professor at Columbia, formerly tenured at Harvard at age 28. He has a stellar international reputation. He's been on the inside for decades and now is blowing the whistle.

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Indu Abeysekara's avatar

Bill, Outsiders seem to know more about Jeffery Sachs than Americans.

He was the expert assigned to Poland ( after the fall of the Soviet Union) who applied "shock therapy" to Poland's economy. Maybe he saw the error of his ways and changed his mind about most things after that - commend him for seeing the truth.

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bill wolfe's avatar

Sachs said his "shock therapy" in Poland worked well to stabilize the currency. He was first disillusioned when he recommendations, based exactly on the Poland plan, to do the same when the Soviet Union collapsed was rejected by "deep state" actors.

His economic thinking is rather traditional - his geo-strategic, military, environmental/climate, and political assessments are far out of the mainstream and left oriented.

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Literally Mussolini's avatar

His qualifications should play well with credentialists. (My wife is one.)

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bill wolfe's avatar

I get pissed off at that "credentialist" attack.

Sachs is so good for the same reason that Chris Hedge is. They've been on the inside of the machine and know how it operates. They both have strong academic backgrounds ("credentials")

For similar reason, Assange is so dangerous because he disclosed the operating manual for the machine.

I am biased, because I too have been on the inside and am proud of my "credentials".

I have no use for those who have know idea how the machine operates and yet attack their friends who do.

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Uncle Juan's avatar

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope.

Smedley Butler

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Just sayn's avatar

The US and it's three branches are simply a corporation. Those who hold office have sworn to protect the corporation and it's charter(constitution) . It is a for profit corporation that underwrites all other corporations, and licences(there by controlling) every aspect of life in their territory. From cradle to grave anyone raised in this corporate environment is subject to all manner of programming and propaganda. In the end it is almost exactly as you have described. It is about wealth and power and keeping the wage and debt slaves pacified yet fear filled with constant chaos and the illusion of choice, and Rights.

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Taiga Shaman's avatar

A modern-day East India Company.

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Dorothy's avatar

The main features and requirements of the basic economic law of modern capitalism might be formulated roughly, in this way: the securing of the maximum capitalist profit through the exploitation, ruin and impoverishment of the majority of the population of the given country, through the enslavement and systematic robbery of the peoples of other countries, especially backward countries, and, lastly, through wars and militarization of the national economy, which are utilized for the obtaining of the highest profits.

Joseph Stalin, Economic Problems of Socialism in the U.S.S.R.

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martin's avatar

makes one wonder if it is a coincidence joseph has such a bad rep in empire's history books, doesn't it?

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

"What is Capitalism?" OR "The Capitalist God’s 10 Commandments" OR "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Capitalism (but were too afraid to ask)":

1. Thou shalt honour Me as your one true God and have faith in my religion of neoliberalism, globalization, free trade, and private ownership.

2. Thou shalt accept the impoverishment of the many and the enrichment of the few, for in my religion avarice is to be valued over social and economic equity, and competition over co-operation.

3. Thou shalt not oppose the decline of democracy. I will permit you the illusion of democracy. You may still vote for and elect parties that purport to be different, but since they now all bow down to Me, it matters not which forms the government.

4. Thy governments shalt provide my loyal corporate minions with ample grants and subsidies, and overlook their excesses in the noble pursuit of profit.

5. Thy governments shalt not tax my corporations beyond the limit of their tolerance, for the taxation of wealth and profit is the greatest evil. Any government so rash as to break this commandment will feel my wrath as I devastate its economy by relocating factories, jobs, and capital to more devout and compliant regions.

6. Thou shalt not hamper my corporations with restrictive rules and regulations. They must be allowed to treat their employees as they see fit, limitlessly exploit natural resources, and dispose of their toxic wastes and emissions without regard to the environment.

7. Thou shalt halt the excessive and unnecessary education of your youth. Education instills unreasonable expectations that could lead to clear and critical thinking. I require citizens who are docile and easily indoctrinated. You must therefore make your education system less accessible to aspiring students and more susceptible to corporate influence. This will include the incorporation of these Commandments in the school curriculum.

8. Thou shalt eliminate all barriers to the privatization of your public programs and institutions, including education and health care, so that corporations will be free to deliver these services on a profit-making basis.

9. Thou shalt endure without complaint the social costs of adherence to my Commandments, which put the rights of the rich and powerful above those of the less financially endowed majority. The strong must be free to flourish and the poor and weak allowed to succumb to poverty, hunger, and homelessness. This is the ideal society that my commandments are designed to create, and in which my corporate followers will best be able to thrive.

10. Thou shalt obey these Commandments without question, knowing that they have been passed down from on high to my apostles on Wall Street and Bay Street, and to my loyal mass media owners. The private newspapers and TV-radio stations have been entrusted with the crucial task of spreading my neoliberal free-market doctrine far and wide. Henceforth, you must believe everything they tell you, because you will know they speak for Me, your omniscient and omnipotent Capitalist God.

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Loren Bliss's avatar

I suspect future historians -- if indeed there is enough of a human future to support historians -- will mark 22 November 1963 as the USian Empire's equivalent of the Roman Empire's 4 September 476, and I suspect they'll diagnose the destruction of the Soviet Union as the slaying of our species' last rational hope for escaping the open-air death-camp the plutocrats are making of the planet.

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Levi Tate's avatar

Raytheon bought itself a Secretary of Defense (SOD).

Did you know that Raytheon, before Lloyd Austin became SOD, handed Lloyd Austin (LA) a basket load of assets?

Lloyd Austin had retired from the Pentagon as a multi-star general.

He then opened a shell of a company, a "consultancy".

Where? I wish a reporter would track this down, I wouldn't be surprised if it was little more than a mail slot in some obscure back alley in Kansas. I don't know.

Well, Raytheon was so bowled over by this critical "consultancy" that it merged it

- yes, merged it - into Raytheon. Merger means that they handed Austin a basket full of stock,

so much stock that he was now on the Board of Directors at Raytheon.

Austin was so pleased that he decided to become Secretary of Defense in Raytheon's honor.

The lobbyists of Washington got to work and plied their rolodexes, contacting all the right people.

Lloyd Austin was to be nominated.

But there was a problem. The law says that one cannot become Secretary of Defense until one waits several years (four or is it five?) after retiring from the Pentagon. This law was enacted so as to control abuse of the Washington "revolving door". No matter, Congress voted an exception for Lloyd Austin.

"Power to the Rolodex and NOT the People".

That is how it is done in Washington.

That is how Raytheon bought itself a Secretary of Defense.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

The secretary before Lloyd also got an exception to that policy.

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Erwin Cuellar's avatar

First I hear of this, thanks! More than Crazy...

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𝓙𝓪𝓼𝓶𝓲𝓷𝓮 𝓦𝓸𝓵𝓯𝓮's avatar

Eisenhower warned us about the military, industrial complex. We probably should have listened 😕

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Realist's avatar

"Eisenhower warned us about the military, industrial complex. We probably should have listened 😕"

The only way out now is to destroy the Deep State.

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Andrea Cherez's avatar

Please reveal who exactly the deep state is.

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Realist's avatar

"Please reveal who exactly the deep state is."

It is the unelected people in the government who control this country.

See Bill Wolfe's reply.

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Andrea Cherez's avatar

There’s thousands of unelected people in government - how do we challenge the strategies of the deep state with only this vague label?

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Realist's avatar

"There’s thousands of unelected people in government - how do we challenge the strategies of the deep state with only this vague label?"

Actually, it is hundreds of thousands.

Start at the top and work your way down until things get right. Or shit can them all and start over.

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Literally Mussolini's avatar

This Deep State is a very strange thing.

Sure, other nations have been ruled by cabals or collaborating interests. But we have something that takes it to another level.

There are so many interests drinking from this endless spigot of money originating from the US government, that they--in their collaborations and petty conflicts--have become a single organism of sorts.

It's no wonder that Sachs, when asked by Carlson, could not say who was in charge.

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Andrea Cherez's avatar

Sounds a little overwhelming. Do you suppose someone posts a list of the top warmongers?

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bill wolfe's avatar

Watch the Jeff Sachs interview to get a very clear description of the "deep state".

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Francis/Clare's avatar

He has endorsed Jill Stein, M.D. for president 2024.

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bill wolfe's avatar

Yes, I know. Sachs is better than Mearsheimer.

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Andrea Cherez's avatar

I watched it yesterday, but he’s not specific enough. The CIA, the military industrial complex, Hillary Clinton, Madeleine Albright, but no current or top names.

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Literally Mussolini's avatar

That's because there is no one--or even particular group of people--in charge.

The Deep State is an enormous collection of individuals and interest groups all drinking from an endless money spigot originating with the US government. These individuals jockey for position among themselves, but come together in coalitions when threatened.

This lack of concentrated control accounts for the shambolic behavior of the US Empire, which is a manifestation of the Deep State.

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bill wolfe's avatar

He's more detailed than virtually any analyst out there. Name one who does better detailed documentation?

He indirectly criticized Blinked in the Tucker interview and has criticized the Biden people by name numerous times.

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Susan T's avatar

you keep saying that, but you never offer any real solutions.

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𝓙𝓪𝓼𝓶𝓲𝓷𝓮 𝓦𝓸𝓵𝓯𝓮's avatar

You have any ideas how to disarm the US military? I'm all ears, hon🤣

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Reduce their budget.

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JennyStokes's avatar

Who is going to do that?

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Gnuneo's avatar

When the $ is 2000 for 1 rouble, due to hyperflation from insane printing and borrowing, the bases will rot, and the unpaid military personnel will leave their posts and drift home.

Best case scenario at this point.

Worst case is once all the nukes have been launched, along with all the other chemical and biological WMDs.

I wouldn't dare bet which will occur.

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JennyStokes's avatar

Strikes/Union organizing at the many military facilities.

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𝓙𝓪𝓼𝓶𝓲𝓷𝓮 𝓦𝓸𝓵𝓯𝓮's avatar

You mean the defense contractors that build the weapons? What about all the weapons the US already has? It's not a bad idea but it won't lead to the disarmament of our military.

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JennyStokes's avatar

According to a lot of experts I listen to your are being scammed by news. In actual fact a lot of the weapons used in Ukraine from the US were mothballed and completely unsuitable for the terrain.

I don't think you have the weapons that the US tells you it has.

Look at Scott Ritter on this and other defence experts. This includes Pacifius on here.

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Too much work's avatar

If you were to do all that; why shouldn't everyone walk off their job??

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JennyStokes's avatar

I don't understand the question?

People who work in the armaments industry are they moral or amoral? Is it just a job to them or do they understand that part of what they are making is a death machine?

I certainly would not work in the arms industry BUT if there were no other jobs and I had a family to feed I suppose I would.

THIS does not mean there cannot be strikes and protests outside these facilities!

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Abolish the CIA.

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Realist's avatar

"Abolish the CIA."

That will take a revolution.

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Francis/Clare's avatar

We need a revolution of education, not a violent one.

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Realist's avatar

"We need a revolution of education, not a violent one."

To what end? Once people are educated, then what?

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Realist's avatar

"you keep saying that, but you never offer any real solutions."

Then keep pissing, moaning, and virtual signaling...it's working great so far.

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JennyStokes's avatar

How will you do that?

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Realist's avatar

"How will you do that?"

Revolution.

We have been through this so many times before. What is your solution???

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Too much work's avatar

And you use "Realist" as your handle? Please! Get Real !!

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Realist's avatar

"And you use "Realist" as your handle? Please! Get Real !!"

You presented a reply that says nothing. Do you have so much free time that you can afford to write inane bullshit?

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Too much work's avatar

My next door neighbor, rather very much proof that you're absolutely very very insane

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Too much work's avatar

That's exactly what I mean, totally immature adults who refuse to grow up, no doubt but that that's what Biden and Netanyahu are all about, and thanks to your outburst, it's probably very revealing that you too are one of those trolls that go around late at night raping all those poor innocent earth worms that come out after a good rain. Zionist chump.

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Literally Mussolini's avatar

Maybe the realistic assessment is that it's hopeless.

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Too much work's avatar

It is; even our pets are a shit load a lot smarter than us, and if they get into a fight amongst themselves the winner usually apologizes to the loser. I see spirituality beautiful people every day, but they're really just gems in otherwise worthless dirt.

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AJF's avatar

Once again, spot on Caitlin...and once you know there's no going back. Wouldn't want to anyway!

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Dorothy's avatar

The “campaign of global domination” has a name and its way past time to say it loud: CAPITALISM.

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Just sayn's avatar

I am sorry but you have mistakenly named Fascism as capitalism. True capitalism has Never been practiced by the US. The demonization of capitalism is a guise used to hide fascism of corporations and government conspiring to control the territory and people of an area. In the case of US it is world hegemony they desire. Benito Mussolini described it as such a combination. It is a common thing to mistake because the propaganda has been enormous to destroy true capitalism.

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Realist's avatar

We live under a plutocratic oligarchy.

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Just sayn's avatar

Indeed we do and it is fascist at its core. Using government to achieve it's goals.

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Dorothy's avatar

Fascism is a tool of capitalism

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Just sayn's avatar

Capitalism is free trade among willing participants without outside interference. It is property rights to do as one pleases as long as they do no harm to others. Fascism is using the power of government to prevent competition, aquire things you wouldn't legally be able to get without force such as monopoly. Propaganda is a tool of fascism. The only tool capitalism requires is true Justice.

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Susan T's avatar

Capitalism would not work without there being people at the bottom to do the labour that keeps those at the top rich.

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Just sayn's avatar

There are those who produce; either goods or services. There is no such thing as equality of ability. Lots of people can do rudimentary manual labor. Few have the ability to be electrical engineers, aerospace engineers, yet all these jobs are essential in modern society, they all receive some form of remuneration for their work from those who employ them. To get rich like the Rockefellers or Gates and others has almost always required using government force or handouts to get ahead. That is NOT capitalism it is euphemistically called 'crony' capitalism but it is a form of Fascism, a conspiracy between government persons and those buying favoritism. Mises.org is a great resource never stop learning!

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martin's avatar

imo free trade among willing participants is only possible when all the material needs of these participants have been met.

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Just sayn's avatar

There are perhaps three methods of attaining ones needs or wants; do the production yourself, steal them from others, trade equitably with other parties to aquire those things. Theft is what government does, all government everywhere, all the time. Production is what people do and it often requires resources, don't steal,trade. The third method is how communities came about various trades working toward goals peacefully. The butcher,baker, candlestick maker, cobbler, carpenter. You are saying people steal to get started. That makes No sense IMO.

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martin's avatar

if you do not have the means of production (land, tools, a workshop, ...) you can not do the production yourself. you'd have to sell your labor to someone who owns more means of production. 'have to' like in not really 'voluntary', 'free' or 'willing'. i did not say that people steal to get started. how did you start your business?

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Uncle Juan's avatar

No

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Gregor McIntosh's avatar

What is “true capitalism”?

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

Gregor, IMHO there is no such thing as "true capitalism", just as there are no such thing as "true socialism", "true marxism", "true communism", "true Christianity", "true Judaism", etc. etc. for many/most ideologies.

Some reasons why there is no such thing as "true capitalism", etc.:

(1) All these ideologies are very broad, extremely complex, contain too many dynamic and changing parts, and have too many variables within each such ideology that interact in unpredictable ways. Hence, to define any version of such ideologies as "true" is extremely challenging.

(2) There are hundreds of versions of Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Marxism, Christianity, Islam, etc. Often each nation/group/organization constantly modify/refine ideologies to make it work in their particular environment for their particular period in time.

(3) There is no global, singular, all-dictating authority that can say - "Ok, this is the true definition of XYZ ideology - and all must adhere to my definition".

For all the reasons above (& others), I am skeptical of anyone that attempts to define the "true version/definition" of any ideology. If we start incorporating elements of statistics and probability, then we may say that "based on a certain sampling size and using inferential statistics, the probability of a certain definition being the highest is x%". I feel that this is the closest we can come to agreeing on a consensus opinion on a particular ideology.

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Just sayn's avatar

I'm glad you asked. This five minute read explains it better than I can here. https://mises.org/mises-wire/capitalist-revolution

I am in no way affiliated With this site. They are an excellent economic resource, given the entire world revolves around economics it's worth understanding.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

You have probably cited one of the worst resources on capitalism (other than Milton Friedman's bullshit free-market theories). The Von Mises is the "Austrian School of Economics", which is a branch of economics/finance and is far from an explanation of Capitalism.

People often assume that capitalism is defined by "markets and trade". But markets and trade existed for thousands of years before capitalism. Capitalism is only 500 years old. So what is distinctive about this economic system? Three things (well, more, but three for now):

1. First, and most importantly, it is defined by enclosure and artificial scarcity. The origins of capitalism lie in a systematic effort by elites to restrict people's access to commons and independent subsistence, in order to render them reliant on wage labour for survival. Over the past 500 years, this has taken the form of privatization of commons, forced dispossession, destruction of subsistence economies and - particularly in the colonies - taxing people in a currency they do not have in order to induce them to seek wages in that currency. This continues today, with attempts to ensure an artificial scarcity of access to essential goods such as housing, healthcare, education, transit, and so on - goods that could very easily be provided, at high quality, on a universal public basis. Where universal public goods do exist, these have usually been won by longstanding struggles by labour movements and other progressive forces (including the anti-colonial movement).

2. Second, capitalism is organized around - and dependent on - perpetual expansion, meaning ever-increasing production of commodified goods. It is the only intrinsically expansionary economic system in history (meaning it basically has a crisis if it doesn't continually expand). Crucially, under capitalism the purpose of increasing production is *not* primarily to meet human needs, but rather to extract and accumulate profit. That is the overriding objective. (It is also the main objective of innovation).

It's important to distinguish here between small businesses, which quite often operate with a steady-state, use-value logic (and which obviously preceded capitalism), and corporations whose main objective is expansion and accumulation (which define the capitalist era). To sustain the process of perpetually increasing surplus accumulation, capital requires an ever-rising quantity of inputs (labour and nature), and requires that these inputs be obtained as cheaply as possible. This introduces a constant pressure to depress real wages and attack environmental protections wherever possible (in the absence of countervailing political forces). The result is a system that, left to itself, automatically generates inequality and ecological breakdown.

3. Finally, capitalism is notable for precluding democratic decision-making. Even in countries that prize political democracy, democratic principles are rarely allowed to operate in the sphere of production, where decisions are made overwhelmingly by those who control capital. The result is that decisions about what to produce, for what purposes, for whose benefit, and under what conditions are generally made in the narrow interests of the capitalist class (workers, the people actually *doing* the production, rarely get a voice at all). It is worth pondering how our production priorities (and our treatment of labour and nature) might be different under conditions of economic democracy. Existing evidence suggests that democratic conditions lead to less exploitation, more equality, and more care for ecology.

In sum, the tendency to equate capitalism with "markets and trade" naturalizes a system that is not natural, and prevents us from having a clear-eyed view of how it operates and how we might want to do things differently.

(The "more" I referred to involves exploitative relations of race, gender and imperial power, which are effects of the tendencies described here, and which sustain them, but this deserves a thread unto itself).

We can have a democratic economy organized around meeting human needs at a high standard, where production is socially just and ecologically regenerative. Such a system is possible, but it will require a political movement to bring it into being (AND CAPITALISM IS NOT IT).

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Just sayn's avatar

Their is No hierarchial method of mass control, (that is what a 'government' is) that will promote freedom,justice, or equality those in power however they achieve power will always take advantage of the masses. Capitalism has demonstrably raised the standard of living of more people than any other system. All though as with the other hierarchy systems the abuses including Genocides and wars have been increasingly deadlier as a result of advancements in technology, and the ability to create mass propaganda and psychosis via technology while censoring others. This has happened, IMO under every form of hierarchial government it is how they achieve and maintain power. Until humans can make progress on coexisting with people that are different their will always be tyranny. Having an acceptable method of payment for goods services, and resources is a goal that is best settled between buyer and seller not through force and violence. Fiat currency systems have contributed immensely to the ability to wage war through currency creation (counterfeiting) which has also been used to move wealth to the top of the hierarchy pyramid. The problem with every form is not so much the idea of sharing the wealth but of the lying, deceitful nature of humans and their lust for power. Only Decentralization offers any hope for humanity. Yet with the diversity and size of the worlds population I see little chance of things improving any time soon. It is modern human nature. This line from the Declaration of Independence describes the issue; "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." The entirety of Humanity unlike all other creatures is focused on Economic transactions, otherwise we are back to short brutal existence of hunter gatherer. Ending US currency Hegemony would be a great leap forward. But capitalism is here to stay though in a multi polar world.

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RedDust's avatar

Among all the other contributions Tim Foley and Caitlin Johnstone are making to our world, they are helping people wake up by exposing and illuminating the nefarious ways of U.S. Empire, and of Western Industrial Civilization as a whole. Deep gratitude.

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Too much work's avatar

There is that; but yesterday there were only 13 comments, so I suspect that other than that 13 from yesterday, almost all of today's more than 129 comments are from trolls and the like.

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Joy in HK fiFP's avatar

I wonder if I missed that one? I was traveling. I’ll have to try and look for it.

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Too much work's avatar

It's so hard to go through these comments, if I'm totally bored I'll go through them, but mostly it's just an exercise in why I shouldn't even bother, but I think that for Caitlin et al, this gig makes up a significant portion of her income, but obviously, for most it makes up part of their income by just being trolls on this website; I can tell just by their behavioral characteristics. I've gotten to the point that I don't believe anything that anyone says, so just like in Germany, so many got swept up in a culture of hatred, which is obviously what the US, Israel and many others are all about. The weak link in a species that might otherwise have not gone extinct. If you're one of those gems, I'm really sorry that you had to have been born in the first place; if we only think of people as numbers; then obviously the odds are that gems exist only in the eye of the beholder. I wish you luck whatever you are.

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Sera's avatar

Can a country run by intelligence agencies even be thought of as having a government? With Biden at its head and Blinken its chief diplomat, can it even be seen as having a leader?

In 2016 was as anti-Trump as anyone, but felt silently glad that the warmongering Hillary had been put out to pasture. After the Trump verdict yesterday I’m going through a similar misalignment of my opinions. These are truly Trumped up charges, and if they want so badly to keep out of the White House, I want to know why. Maybe I’ll ask Robert DeNiro.

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jamenta's avatar

Trump received a record amount of small donations after the verdict. You want to talk about a political miscalculation: the Liberal Democratic party political Hollywood jack asses want to think this will be their great victory against Trump. Instead, they've only made Trump into a working man's martyr - a man whom the System is trying to crush - which most ordinary Americans now will easily IDENTIFY WITH - and vote for EVEN MORE. But the Democrat party fools - who continue to support a demented warmongering Scamster - genocide Joe Biden - have been so infected with Trump Derangement Syndrome, they are on a ship that will sink as surely as the Titanic sunk after hitting an iceburg. The POTUS election is now over. And these fools are cheering about their supposed "victory" - while their ship sinks beneath them.

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Sera's avatar

In addition to the sheer twisting of law in these Trumped up charges, my curiosity is piqued. Why is it so important that Trump be defeated? So, as a lifelong ‘leftist’, I have a rational desire to see Trump replace Biden just to satisfy some twisted curiosity of my own. But I stop short of voting for any of these idiots.

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jamenta's avatar

My guess, is they can't control Trump like they can control their demented puppet Genocide Joe. And they really hate the fact Trump beat Hilly and her frequent flyer Lolita Express husband, which exposed their Liberal Hollywood hypocrisy.

I never voted for Trump - the guy is a billionaire sleazebag. He's just another cheek of the same 1% backside.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

He threatened to make peace with North Korea. All loyal Americans must unite against the peace threat.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

He threatened nothing. Everyone should know by now that Trump only cares about himself. He doesn't care about peace or North Korea or Americans or the US. He will say whatever he needs to say to con people and stay relevant/in power. And he has succeeded at that (conning and scamming people).

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JennyStokes's avatar

Yes. I await Trump. Certainly don't expect much empathy for the people!

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

>>"Yes. I await Trump"..

You shouldn't. He will only make things worse... (I'm not suggesting that Biden won't too).

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

>>"Why is it so important that Trump be defeated?"

There are over a hundred really good reasons. Study fascism, study personality cult figures throughout history, study populism, study the behavior of fascists (and check out the book recommendations in my other comment to you).

Here are some famous fascists: Bolsonaro, Mobutu, Pinochet, Gaddafi, Franco, Orban, Duarte, Putin, Erdogan, Modi, Berlusconni, Hitler, and many more...

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Jennifer Majewski Williams's avatar

My thoughts are perhaps Trump is controlled opposition and has been made into a martyr intentionally to ensure he gets re-elected. Only a thought I entertain on occasion. His complicity in rushing the Covid-19 vaccine and adherence to its benefits,despite the evidence it does more harm than good, makes me suspicious. And he also changed later in his administration which made me question if “they” got to him. It may be to make him a martyr for re-election purposes or to ignite a civil war which of course the powers that be would love. Just my musings for what they’re worth….

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martin's avatar

empire doesn't really care. as long as people vote for either one of them, they're good. it might even have been a deliberate democratic campaign tactic to make sure the working class votes within the duopoly. kayfabe.

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Gerald's avatar

Like the reference to De Niro. Great actor but what a chump, just like George Clooney and his Clooney Foundation for Justice

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

If you want to understand why they (and any person that has experienced fascism) want Trump out, I suggest 2 books for you to read to get you started:

(1) "How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them" by Jason Stanley (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38255329-how-fascism-works)

(2) "Strongmen: How They Rise, Why They Succeed, How They Fall" by Ruth Ben-Ghiat (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50066739-strongmen)

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EV's avatar

Great insight and well said! 👍🙏🏼

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Feral Finster's avatar

This is the nature of any empire.

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Susan T's avatar

I have understood for a while that the only thing that is important to the warmongers is keeping their power and money. What I don't understand is how they think they are going to physically survive when they push this whole mess either to a nuclear war or to a total environmental collapse. They will die too. So will their children and grandchildren. It would seem that, as well a being power hungry and greedy, they think that they are gods and will somehow be spared.

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jamenta's avatar

I've been wondering the same thing. The only psychological possibility I can think of is the typical narcissist male controlling abuser - whom when he realizes his "wife" is leaving him, will then resort to homicide as a way of ultimate "control" i.e. if he can't have his wife, then no one can. This may be the same psychological underpinning driving these demented, octogenarian world leaders to risk World War III - if they can't maintain control and power over others, then no one can ...

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Loren Bliss's avatar

Indeed; a slogan of the Far Right from 1945 well into the '70s was "Better Dead Than Red." Other relevant slogans -- these c. 1969-1974 or thereabouts -- were "Organic Is Satanic"; ":Environmental Is Of The Devil"; "Kill A Hippie For Christ"; and the much more ubiquitous "God Hates Hippies."

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jamenta's avatar

Whoa that goes way back.

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Jo Waller's avatar

A classic of a classic.

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Too much work's avatar

I met a couple of those people, the one that stands out most in my mind is the guy who cut off his girlfriend's head, had sex with what was left of her, put her head in a plastic bag, went to a bar and ordered both of them a drink.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

“These brass hats have one great advantage in their favor. If we listen to them, and do what they want us to do, none of us will be alive later to tell them that they were wrong.”

― James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters

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Loren Bliss's avatar

As I have said many times in my own blog, Dispatches from Dystopia (aka Outside Agitator's Notebook), the brazenly skyrocketing escalation of the chemical/biological/radiological threat is the plutocrats' declaration they now consider themselves well enough bunkered to survive whatever apocalypse they inflict on the rest of us. What they forget is -- as was pointed out by Paul and Anne Ehrlich --"Mother Nature always bats last." Which if the Gaia Theory proves true may be a bit more meaningful than it seems.

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Susan T's avatar

Loren Bliss: No matter how well bunkered they are, nuclear radiation lasts for centuries. And I really can't see them coming out to clean up the mess they have made of the environment. At best they might have a few more months stuck underground where they really belong anyway.

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Loren Bliss's avatar

Susan T...That's precisely why we need to consider the possibility -- unspeakably horrible as it is -- the plutocrats are merely serving extraterrestrial conquerors, as compliant tribal chieftains did for Roman and post-Columbian conquerors. That would explain the plutocrats' campaign of global ecogenocide as preparation of the planet for occupation by a species with different environmental requirements. It would redefine the death cult of patriarchy -- imposed on a matriarchal species by talking snakes, loquacious brush-fires, fiery wheels in the sky and apparitions of a notably sadistic male "god" -- as the interstellar, psychological-warfare equivalent of smallpox-contaminated blankets. It would also explain the sudden campaign to normalize UFO phenomena. Mind you, I'm not saying this is so; I'm merely saying that, given the givens, this is an alternative that need be considered.

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Susan T's avatar

I don't know if that scenario is really more horrible than nuclear bombs being dropped on us. It is even more of an unknown, so that does add to the horribleness.

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Loren Bliss's avatar

What I seek to comprehend is how and why the plutocrats are so utterly indifferent to the lives and well-being of their own children. It seems to me the only plausible answers are (1)-they now consider themselves sufficiently well bunkered to survive whatever apocalyptic horrors they inflict on us; or (2)-like the aforementioned tribal chieftains, they are (falsely) guaranteed survival by the masters they serve. The first alternative includes the (very faint) possibility some of our demonstrably resilient species will survive to restore the earth-centered ethos that sustained us throughout our pre-patriarchal millennia, a period of at least 194,000 years. (Note that Jungian psychology regards the resurrection of traditional earth-centered spirituality -- most notably the resurrection of the Great Goddess -- as the prelude to such a transformation.) The second alternative is, in essence, the deliberate, permanent reduction of our Mother Earth to the bug planet she was 400 million years ago. I take the second alternative as infinitely more horrible than the first because it includes the permanent destruction of all art, and ultimately therefore the nullification of every positive instinct our species has ever possessed. Which in turn is the nullification of the inertial momentum toward consciousness seemingly possessed by every atom (else life would never have arisen from, as Carl Sagan put it, the substance of the stars).

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Joy in HK fiFP's avatar

I recall the poster that one was seen on many an anti-war wall, “The one who dies with the most toys wins.” We’re the last of the hominids following our cousins down the road to extinction. The large-brain experiment seems to have been a dead end, and more’s the pity.

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Oregonian's avatar

The US national is just one more subjugated people, in bondage to the USA Globalist Empire; tax sheep and meat soldiers, with a nice layer of profiteering and corruption under the upper echelons of The Powers that Be. We will see how it all holds up under 37 Trillion in debt, and an additional 1 trillion every 100 days…

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Ian Gallimore's avatar

Thanks for this; it has gotten me thinking in a way which helps make sense of the senseless situation we see now at the fore globally.

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