CJ>>"You cannot make a deep study of trauma and human dysfunction and still sustain a belief in the death penalty."
NOT in the least Caitlin! Just look at Netanyahu, Trump, Musk, and hundreds if not thousands of such mass murderers, genociders, and the PURE EVIL that they represent. They have been collectively responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.
I have NO ISSUES believing in the death penalty. Nuance is required to know when to use it and when not to, and how to use it and how not to.
I don't know why, but you seem to approach many issues from a black-and-white perspective...
The trouble with the death penalty is that the worst offenders, responsible for multiple deaths, are free to continue their devastation while the survivors who lash out at the legacy of the offenders pay the ultimate price. And the cycle of injustice continues ad nauseum.
Yes. And you're making my point for me here - thank you. WHEN to use it, HOW to use it, on WHOM to use it on, and so many more considerations.
That's precisely my point. The dealth penalty ISN'T about good/bad or right/wrong (though people love to simplify issues and fall into such black-and-white traps).
I think Caitlin's point is a bit more nuanced, though I can see your perspective Chang. Perhaps locking Satanyahu, Stump, and Must in cells for the rest of their lives, periodically allowing them out on display for future generations of children to see what happens when you behave as an enemy of mankind, would demonstrate justice without murder.
What's your definition of justice? What's your definition of murder. THIS is where nuance comes in. There is also the issue of morality and "the GREATER GOOD"
I suggest thinking deeper about this than approaching it with emotional or gut reactions. There is a reason there is so much DEBATE about the issue of "death penalties" (whatever its form).
There have been many people put to death who were innocent, mostly Black men. And because it sets a bad example. Someone killed my brother in the cruelest way. I've wondered if I was letting him down by not seeking revenge, but Caitlin's article has me thinking I honor my dear brother better by not sullying myself with the perpetrator's filth. We are better than that.
I get the trauma criminal justice etc. I don't get the execution which is depraved and more barbaric where botched. Surely she should just be left now. The crazy state had its chance. The torture of attempted murder is enough.
Agreed 100%. The death penalty turns the jailers into murderers. But, I might add, that it's weird; the drugs they use to murder the accused murderers. A cocktail of drugs that seem to be painful, invasive and downright disgusting. Why? My old sick cat recently died from a gentle euthanasia. A simply tranquilizer to allow him to pass out. Then the inevitable injection of heart stopping stuff. I wonder why, if we must, can't we give the penalized what the vet gave to my cat? I suspect this is some sort of effing oligarchic ritual, replete with finger signals and incantations and that there are demons in charge of the ritual and that they are pleased to inhale the essence of this anguish. We are not advanced. We are not modern. We are the same fearful creatures that we have always been. We are witch hunters. We are finger pointing blamers. We are terrified of our own beauty.
Imagine. She lured her victim Slemmer into the woods with two accomplices, brutally attacked her using a box cutter, meat cleaver, and asphalt, carved a pentagram into her skin, and kept a piece of her skull as a trophy AND YET, the death penalty as morally abhorrent. Shall we rehabilitate this victim of society or karma for a vile human being? My preference the latter.
"...underneath all the savagery and sadism and exploitation and abuse, we were always ultimately just confused and damaged children stumbling through a giant universe that we did not understand."
I like how I once heard it said, "You are not the worst thing that you've ever done."
They should have just as easily put a bullet in her head and saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars.
Did you ever think that perhaps she deserves the anguish that she earned?
It’s not “samsara” because karma isn’t legitimate. What you’re really witnessing is the law of sewing and reaping.
”Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.“
Galatians 6:7-8 NKJV
Your a smart person Caitlin but not as smart as you think you are, otherwise you would:
”that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.“
So why DIDN'T they "put a bullet in her head" 40 years ago instead of keeping her in prison for all those years? And hadn't she already paid her debt with all those years in prison? Or would the fact that prisons in the US are money-making enterprises have affected that decision?
For contrast, I learned this from my Irish newspaper this morning:
This woman's 13 year prison sentence for killing her partner was overturned because the jury had not taken into account her history of domestic abuse.
Of course Irish and UK prisons are run by the governments, not privately, and both abolished the death sentence many decades ago..
Keeping a person in prison for 40 years and then being incapable of executing them in a humane and professional manner, indeed making a theatre of it with curtains and an audience, is grotesque and indicative of a very sick and vendictive country.
The US proving once again that is a most disgusting country!
Perhaps the religions you and millions of other Americans profess might have something to do with this.
I used to be a death penalty abolition absolutist. Then I witnessed war after war and genocide after genocide being conducted through "legal" means by people with "legal" authority all based on ridiculous lies and fairy tales. Its changed my attitude. I say we keep it legal for war criminals and genociders. If we botch a few executions, "Oopsie! Hope that didn't hurt too much, would you mind putting your neck in our back-up guillotine?"
CJ>>"You cannot make a deep study of trauma and human dysfunction and still sustain a belief in the death penalty."
NOT in the least Caitlin! Just look at Netanyahu, Trump, Musk, and hundreds if not thousands of such mass murderers, genociders, and the PURE EVIL that they represent. They have been collectively responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.
I have NO ISSUES believing in the death penalty. Nuance is required to know when to use it and when not to, and how to use it and how not to.
I don't know why, but you seem to approach many issues from a black-and-white perspective...
The trouble with the death penalty is that the worst offenders, responsible for multiple deaths, are free to continue their devastation while the survivors who lash out at the legacy of the offenders pay the ultimate price. And the cycle of injustice continues ad nauseum.
>>"The trouble with the death penalty is..."
Yes. And you're making my point for me here - thank you. WHEN to use it, HOW to use it, on WHOM to use it on, and so many more considerations.
That's precisely my point. The dealth penalty ISN'T about good/bad or right/wrong (though people love to simplify issues and fall into such black-and-white traps).
I think Caitlin's point is a bit more nuanced, though I can see your perspective Chang. Perhaps locking Satanyahu, Stump, and Must in cells for the rest of their lives, periodically allowing them out on display for future generations of children to see what happens when you behave as an enemy of mankind, would demonstrate justice without murder.
I totally agree with you. Being against the death penalty is an absolute with nuance.
>>"...justice without murder" ???
What's your definition of justice? What's your definition of murder. THIS is where nuance comes in. There is also the issue of morality and "the GREATER GOOD"
I suggest thinking deeper about this than approaching it with emotional or gut reactions. There is a reason there is so much DEBATE about the issue of "death penalties" (whatever its form).
Abuse seems to be a transmissible disease.
"The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers." ~Carl Jung
There have been many people put to death who were innocent, mostly Black men. And because it sets a bad example. Someone killed my brother in the cruelest way. I've wondered if I was letting him down by not seeking revenge, but Caitlin's article has me thinking I honor my dear brother better by not sullying myself with the perpetrator's filth. We are better than that.
I get the trauma criminal justice etc. I don't get the execution which is depraved and more barbaric where botched. Surely she should just be left now. The crazy state had its chance. The torture of attempted murder is enough.
Agreed 100%. The death penalty turns the jailers into murderers. But, I might add, that it's weird; the drugs they use to murder the accused murderers. A cocktail of drugs that seem to be painful, invasive and downright disgusting. Why? My old sick cat recently died from a gentle euthanasia. A simply tranquilizer to allow him to pass out. Then the inevitable injection of heart stopping stuff. I wonder why, if we must, can't we give the penalized what the vet gave to my cat? I suspect this is some sort of effing oligarchic ritual, replete with finger signals and incantations and that there are demons in charge of the ritual and that they are pleased to inhale the essence of this anguish. We are not advanced. We are not modern. We are the same fearful creatures that we have always been. We are witch hunters. We are finger pointing blamers. We are terrified of our own beauty.
And we're told this is a merciful way of execution, like the electric chair that often went wrong.
I wonder if it will be the same crew that get a eighth try at taking her life.
Killing is evil.
Imagine. She lured her victim Slemmer into the woods with two accomplices, brutally attacked her using a box cutter, meat cleaver, and asphalt, carved a pentagram into her skin, and kept a piece of her skull as a trophy AND YET, the death penalty as morally abhorrent. Shall we rehabilitate this victim of society or karma for a vile human being? My preference the latter.
Have the accomplices been executed, or are they waiting their day on the execusioners table?
Yes she's sick
Tell that to her family
"...underneath all the savagery and sadism and exploitation and abuse, we were always ultimately just confused and damaged children stumbling through a giant universe that we did not understand."
I like how I once heard it said, "You are not the worst thing that you've ever done."
First and foremost: I completely agree with you about the need to obliterate the utterly barbaric institution of the death penalty.
That having been said, your piece is one that needs a long time thinking, probably never to reach definitive conclusions.
They should have just as easily put a bullet in her head and saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars.
Did you ever think that perhaps she deserves the anguish that she earned?
It’s not “samsara” because karma isn’t legitimate. What you’re really witnessing is the law of sewing and reaping.
”Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.“
Galatians 6:7-8 NKJV
Your a smart person Caitlin but not as smart as you think you are, otherwise you would:
”that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.“
Romans 10:9 NKJV
So why DIDN'T they "put a bullet in her head" 40 years ago instead of keeping her in prison for all those years? And hadn't she already paid her debt with all those years in prison? Or would the fact that prisons in the US are money-making enterprises have affected that decision?
For contrast, I learned this from my Irish newspaper this morning:
https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2026/10/02/woman-who-stabbed-abusive-partner-to-death-wins-bid-to-overturn-murder-conviction/?#
This woman's 13 year prison sentence for killing her partner was overturned because the jury had not taken into account her history of domestic abuse.
Of course Irish and UK prisons are run by the governments, not privately, and both abolished the death sentence many decades ago..
Keeping a person in prison for 40 years and then being incapable of executing them in a humane and professional manner, indeed making a theatre of it with curtains and an audience, is grotesque and indicative of a very sick and vendictive country.
The US proving once again that is a most disgusting country!
Perhaps the religions you and millions of other Americans profess might have something to do with this.
Not a good take imo. Too lalalandy
fundamentally,
no human being is perfect,
each of us is given a unique set of conditions,
which we react to or cope differently, and
everyone is a cause and an effect at once and at every moment
in the middle of what you called a food chain.
ultimately,
those who have the power and responsibility
determine where to draw the line
between guilt and innocence,
between life and death.
"do not kill,
judge the deed, not the person,
don't be proud/arrogant,"
wise ones have taught us.
right now,
we must claim the power and responsibility
to draw a bright line in the sand, and
condemn genocide as the ultimate crime against humanity.
Does evil exist, Caitlin?
When one encounters a satanist who has murdered an innocent I'm not sure the appropriate response is 'there but for the grace of God go I'.
The Norway position on death penalty is an example
I used to be a death penalty abolition absolutist. Then I witnessed war after war and genocide after genocide being conducted through "legal" means by people with "legal" authority all based on ridiculous lies and fairy tales. Its changed my attitude. I say we keep it legal for war criminals and genociders. If we botch a few executions, "Oopsie! Hope that didn't hurt too much, would you mind putting your neck in our back-up guillotine?"
I have many tears reading this Caitlin.