I am not sure if it was really accidental. According to the S-300 specs they are supposed to detonate if they miss the target:
"0.3 seconds before the rendezvous point, the non-contact explosive device of the SAM is activated, which gives the command to detonate the BC. In the event of a large miss, the SAM will self-destruct from the BC detonation."
If you throw a missile at complete random over the border the chances of it killing anyone must be about 1/1000. If the polish journalist hadn't uploaded the S-300 wreckage to social media within an hour or two of impact, it is very unlikely the US would have 'fessed up so quickly. And we would have been treated to the G20 all lining to denounce Russia's strike on Poland.
The point is NATO missile surveillance liaises seamlessly with the Ukrainian air defense command. Every single launch, aircraft take off etc from Russia is tracked and communicated to Ukraine in real time. For all NATO's "Gosh, I wonder where this could have come from" act in public, they knew the instant of impact where it came from.
Most UAV/Drones now are either ground hugging or low flying, hence targeting by AA may only be possible or occur after overflight of launch site (which usually isn't radar site).
Soviet Policy was to launch two missiles, example both U2 spyplanes were brought down by 2nd missile, for 2nd case after 3 barrages. Likely Ukraine operators have retained same training.
The S-300 remains were1st generation, so likely over 40 years old. Needs rebuild every 10 years to stay reliable, any chance that at least the latest rebuild wasn't done and the monies pocketed? It is Ukraine.
I'm not even sure about the two with this pack of liars, but malfunctioned? Maybe, maybe the conditions for self-destruct were not met, maybe due to age, the self-destruct function was deactivated, maybe ...
Aiming two missiles at the same target, which they both fail to hit, and both have disabled fail safes? One thing about NAZIs, if they want to false flag, they burn down a parliament or hit a radio station, not a nearly abandoned farm.
The same as in 2014 the the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, (mentioned above) stated that they knew the location of the missile launch exactly.
Did the Dutch court call him as a witness? No. Whatever the outcome of this sad matter, with 298 deaths, the US should be held accountable for the criminal actions by the Ukrainians, regardless of the court's determination. Ukraine then became just another US stooge per courtesy of the then current Under Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, incidentally now back in power with Biden. Some things never change
Yet another US charade even able to blindfold and lie to the Dutch Court. The credibility of the verdict today....zero.
"And this is the case because the western mainstream media are the propaganda services of the US-centralized empire. They do not exist to tell people the truth, they exist to manipulate the public into hating the official enemies of the empire and into consenting to foreign policy agendas that they would not otherwise consent to."
There's the rub--we wouldn't consent to the endless proxy wars and wars for oil if it wasn't because of these propagandists. These so-called "journalists" who spin lies and pump out viral exaggerations have the blood of millions on their hands. They should all be in jail.
Not to quibble, but segregating the media personnel from their USG handlers, and focusing blame on the former leaves me less than thoroughly convinced. Yes they are lap dogs, whores for a title and a paycheck, but commercial media “journalists” have a long history of using their communicating skills on behalf of what they perceive to be the “national interest.” They are as deeply steeped in propaganda as their audience. And it’s not as if they are uniquely skilled or in short supply. The lines of applicants to have a NY Times byline, or be in front of a network news camera are virtually endless. I really don’t think they can be expected to adhere to professional standards when the people they write about are elected officials who often exhibit no respect for the truth. If there was a law criminalizing any member of government for buying the services of any member of the media, we would probably be a democracy.
I see your viewpoint, but I quibble with this statement you made: "I really don’t think they can be expected to adhere to professional standards..."
My journalism and ethics professors are all rolling in their graves. Yes, human beings are capable of rising above moral depravity. Journalism majors aren't of any lesser intelligence or moral fiber than any other students. It's a conscious choice a person makes to "follow their leaders" and this choice is even worse if the leaders are morally contemptible, IMO. They have a choice, and they choose to take the money, fame, and notoriety and run with it. But please don't excuse these journalists just because of the moral caliber of the people and stories they report upon. They know better.
Yes, everyone has a choice, and everyone decides but in the context of a totally owned government and MSM, the pseudo-journalists that you are focusing on are mere tools. And there will always be scabs who cross the picket lines, and cops who take bribes...it’s a fact of life. The context is the problem, and I try my best to avoid piling on the scabs and the pseudo-journalists. We are all bombarded by messages to lure us into sacrificing our dignity for our dinner.
John Kerry " We know where the missile came from", or words similar.
Russia made, Ukraine owned and fired. Everyone knows that including John Kerry.
298 dead.
Now Poland with two dead. Russian made and possibly owned and fired by Ukraine again.
When will we all wake up to the games played by the US and its stooge, Yelenskyy supported by the collection of countries subservient to the US dictates called the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation, primed and ready to go. Getting anxious to be part of the game.
Sooner or later, the false flag will fly and there is nobody better at it than the exceptional USA.
Soviet made S-300, by the age, in both cases and therefore actually produced in Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Українська Радянська Соціалістична Республіка (Ukrainian),Украинская Советская Социалистическая Республика (Russian).
War is evil. Conquest and theft is evil (colonialism). The US centered empire (oligarchy/MIC) has over 800 military bases around the world and has invaded other countries over 200 times. Who is by far the biggest imperialist? How about no empires?
Having just spent a lot of tie looking at all the "empires" that existed up to WWI, ending up with the British who also have a lot to answer for, they all seem to come to a rapidly declining end as with the USA in 2022. Of course this one is helped along by a feeble President, his collection of Neocon advisers like Victoia Nuland and the motivating funding by the BlackRocks, Vanguards and State Street operators, representing as they do a staggering investment in the military / industrial and pharmaceutical industries.
It is hard to beat that combination of resources.
Let us hope that common sense will prevail in 2024 and the USA can find another decent respected candidate and not fall back on the Biden, Trumps and Clinton types, seemingly making up most of the likely runners
As for your 800 plus bases, add another one to Australia with nuclear armed B-52 bombers in a new base soon to be resident in the northern parts of that country.
Yes, Russia and China need to stop waging war and threatening the west. Then the US military bases wouldn't be needed any more. Sorry that the civilized world are armed to defend themselves against eastern imperialism.
Russia and China are by far the biggest imperialist. Ukraine has already proven US bases are the only guarantee of peace.
This morning, NPR did the worst "walk back" of the lies they broadcast. Shortly after the incident, (Tuesday morning, I think) they had an Obama State Department Deputy (high level, not some grunt) flat out state that it was a Russian missile attack and NATO would be considering triggering Article 5 (basically, a formula for WW III).
This AM, they had a RAND corporation "expert" basically walk back that lie, without admitting it was in fact a lie, and then they gave Zelinski a huge pass and again blamed Russian propaganda! Un fucking believable!
BBC writes about War crimes being committed in Ukraine, the dead bodies, the mistreatment of civilians. Big, bold headlines! If you read the entire article and not just the headlines, you will find the sentence « However, the BBC could find no evidence to support these claims ». Too late the misinformation is now viral. In the days when I worked for a well known American publication, nothing was printed until the team of assistant editors had fact checked every quote, every number through multiple different sources. If the majority were in agreement with what was in the article, it got published. If a claim cannot be substantiated, you either make that clear or you don’t publish. That to me is taking the profession seriously!
Thank you Caitlin. And - your husband Tim’s continues to be the absolutely best voice I know among all podcasts !! Pleasant to hear and very professional -- the best delivery imaginable.
In the wake of 9/11 a Ukrainian air defense shot down a Russian civilian airplane over Black Sea. As a result rumors circulated the NYC govt was to hire Ukrainians to protect against civilian aircraft.
That could be true, but it may not be, and the point is the media in the west jumped to the conclusion the missile came from Russia. Personally I thought Ukraine did send that missile since they seem held bent on extending this war and want no resolution, and why would they with all that cash flow coming in. I don't trust Zelensky, and think of him as very self serving.
There is a US domestic variant of the North Korea Law Of Journalism.
The closer the story comes to exposing abuses by corporate power, particularly as those abuses are enabled or promoted by Democratic Party controlled government (or deregulation, privatization, corporate subsides, and other Neoliberal policies), then there is the same evidentiary standards operating!
If news media merely applied the same principles to all their sourcing that they apply to Donald Trump, it would help. Routinely when Trump says anything, media feel compelled to add a qualifier such as "baseless" or "without any supporting evidence." The same locutions could be used with nearly any source the media lazily use.
I'm ashamed to admit that I worked in newspaper journalism for 32 years. But one useful thing I learned is that anonymous officials quoted in stories are allowed to offer seemingly independent support for their own comments. For instance, an unnamed US State Dept. official may ask to be identified that way for one comment and then demand to be identified as a "Western diplomat" in another comment in the same story. Hence it sounds as if two independent fatheads are confirming each other when it's only an echo. Reporters routinely go along with the crap.
....sorry (not really!), ''they'' (populus) deserve this!...as G. Carlin said: EDUCATION IN AMERICA, ..one is educated 'nuff' to put 2 things together, and Sunday beer and footbal.... oops and other few sports, depend on season ...
Well, the death penalty is harsh, which could explain why "a harsh sentence" could be interpreted as a death sentence - if you're very stupid. As for the the Ukraine rocket being identified by the trigger-happy as Russian, it just proves there is a death wish in the air, and we should shut such types down, free speech not-withstanding. NATO's " pause button" with the truth amounts to a gross lie, and criminal negligence.
I am not sure if it was really accidental. According to the S-300 specs they are supposed to detonate if they miss the target:
"0.3 seconds before the rendezvous point, the non-contact explosive device of the SAM is activated, which gives the command to detonate the BC. In the event of a large miss, the SAM will self-destruct from the BC detonation."
https://en.missilery.info/missile/c300v
If you throw a missile at complete random over the border the chances of it killing anyone must be about 1/1000. If the polish journalist hadn't uploaded the S-300 wreckage to social media within an hour or two of impact, it is very unlikely the US would have 'fessed up so quickly. And we would have been treated to the G20 all lining to denounce Russia's strike on Poland.
The point is NATO missile surveillance liaises seamlessly with the Ukrainian air defense command. Every single launch, aircraft take off etc from Russia is tracked and communicated to Ukraine in real time. For all NATO's "Gosh, I wonder where this could have come from" act in public, they knew the instant of impact where it came from.
Keep in mind that you shoot an anti-aircraft towards a target, not chasing a target, so why were these missiles heading west?
Also, can someone clarify whether it was one or two missiles?
One missile.going way off course and hitting a person is hella unlikely, but not, I suppose, impossible.
Two missiles, on the same day, hitting the same place?
Most UAV/Drones now are either ground hugging or low flying, hence targeting by AA may only be possible or occur after overflight of launch site (which usually isn't radar site).
Soviet Policy was to launch two missiles, example both U2 spyplanes were brought down by 2nd missile, for 2nd case after 3 barrages. Likely Ukraine operators have retained same training.
The S-300 remains were1st generation, so likely over 40 years old. Needs rebuild every 10 years to stay reliable, any chance that at least the latest rebuild wasn't done and the monies pocketed? It is Ukraine.
My question is why two missiles allegedly malfunctioned in the same way.
I'm not even sure about the two with this pack of liars, but malfunctioned? Maybe, maybe the conditions for self-destruct were not met, maybe due to age, the self-destruct function was deactivated, maybe ...
What I am asking is why two missiles allegedly malfunctioned in the same unlikely way, on the same day, and with such a convenient result.
Aiming two missiles at the same target, which they both fail to hit, and both have disabled fail safes? One thing about NAZIs, if they want to false flag, they burn down a parliament or hit a radio station, not a nearly abandoned farm.
That's true, Tom.
The same as in 2014 the the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, (mentioned above) stated that they knew the location of the missile launch exactly.
Did the Dutch court call him as a witness? No. Whatever the outcome of this sad matter, with 298 deaths, the US should be held accountable for the criminal actions by the Ukrainians, regardless of the court's determination. Ukraine then became just another US stooge per courtesy of the then current Under Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, incidentally now back in power with Biden. Some things never change
Yet another US charade even able to blindfold and lie to the Dutch Court. The credibility of the verdict today....zero.
"And this is the case because the western mainstream media are the propaganda services of the US-centralized empire. They do not exist to tell people the truth, they exist to manipulate the public into hating the official enemies of the empire and into consenting to foreign policy agendas that they would not otherwise consent to."
There's the rub--we wouldn't consent to the endless proxy wars and wars for oil if it wasn't because of these propagandists. These so-called "journalists" who spin lies and pump out viral exaggerations have the blood of millions on their hands. They should all be in jail.
Not to quibble, but segregating the media personnel from their USG handlers, and focusing blame on the former leaves me less than thoroughly convinced. Yes they are lap dogs, whores for a title and a paycheck, but commercial media “journalists” have a long history of using their communicating skills on behalf of what they perceive to be the “national interest.” They are as deeply steeped in propaganda as their audience. And it’s not as if they are uniquely skilled or in short supply. The lines of applicants to have a NY Times byline, or be in front of a network news camera are virtually endless. I really don’t think they can be expected to adhere to professional standards when the people they write about are elected officials who often exhibit no respect for the truth. If there was a law criminalizing any member of government for buying the services of any member of the media, we would probably be a democracy.
I see your viewpoint, but I quibble with this statement you made: "I really don’t think they can be expected to adhere to professional standards..."
My journalism and ethics professors are all rolling in their graves. Yes, human beings are capable of rising above moral depravity. Journalism majors aren't of any lesser intelligence or moral fiber than any other students. It's a conscious choice a person makes to "follow their leaders" and this choice is even worse if the leaders are morally contemptible, IMO. They have a choice, and they choose to take the money, fame, and notoriety and run with it. But please don't excuse these journalists just because of the moral caliber of the people and stories they report upon. They know better.
Yes, everyone has a choice, and everyone decides but in the context of a totally owned government and MSM, the pseudo-journalists that you are focusing on are mere tools. And there will always be scabs who cross the picket lines, and cops who take bribes...it’s a fact of life. The context is the problem, and I try my best to avoid piling on the scabs and the pseudo-journalists. We are all bombarded by messages to lure us into sacrificing our dignity for our dinner.
Referring to the missile as "Russian-made" is misleading at best, for the same reason nobody called the aircraft involved in 9/11 "American-made".
As it was, the missiles were probably made in Soviet Ukraine.
Thanks - much appreciated !!
Both US/NATO and Russia knew immediately the truth -- as each and all missiles are tracked in real time.
Malaysian Airlines in 2014.
John Kerry " We know where the missile came from", or words similar.
Russia made, Ukraine owned and fired. Everyone knows that including John Kerry.
298 dead.
Now Poland with two dead. Russian made and possibly owned and fired by Ukraine again.
When will we all wake up to the games played by the US and its stooge, Yelenskyy supported by the collection of countries subservient to the US dictates called the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation, primed and ready to go. Getting anxious to be part of the game.
Sooner or later, the false flag will fly and there is nobody better at it than the exceptional USA.
Soviet made S-300, by the age, in both cases and therefore actually produced in Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Українська Радянська Соціалістична Республіка (Ukrainian),Украинская Советская Социалистическая Республика (Russian).
Long live NATO and death to eastern imperialism! You eastern masters will not rule the world!
War is evil. Conquest and theft is evil (colonialism). The US centered empire (oligarchy/MIC) has over 800 military bases around the world and has invaded other countries over 200 times. Who is by far the biggest imperialist? How about no empires?
No empires would have the vote of many, Carol.
Having just spent a lot of tie looking at all the "empires" that existed up to WWI, ending up with the British who also have a lot to answer for, they all seem to come to a rapidly declining end as with the USA in 2022. Of course this one is helped along by a feeble President, his collection of Neocon advisers like Victoia Nuland and the motivating funding by the BlackRocks, Vanguards and State Street operators, representing as they do a staggering investment in the military / industrial and pharmaceutical industries.
It is hard to beat that combination of resources.
Let us hope that common sense will prevail in 2024 and the USA can find another decent respected candidate and not fall back on the Biden, Trumps and Clinton types, seemingly making up most of the likely runners
As for your 800 plus bases, add another one to Australia with nuclear armed B-52 bombers in a new base soon to be resident in the northern parts of that country.
Australia, just another US sycophantic disciple.
Yes, Russia and China need to stop waging war and threatening the west. Then the US military bases wouldn't be needed any more. Sorry that the civilized world are armed to defend themselves against eastern imperialism.
Russia and China are by far the biggest imperialist. Ukraine has already proven US bases are the only guarantee of peace.
This morning, NPR did the worst "walk back" of the lies they broadcast. Shortly after the incident, (Tuesday morning, I think) they had an Obama State Department Deputy (high level, not some grunt) flat out state that it was a Russian missile attack and NATO would be considering triggering Article 5 (basically, a formula for WW III).
This AM, they had a RAND corporation "expert" basically walk back that lie, without admitting it was in fact a lie, and then they gave Zelinski a huge pass and again blamed Russian propaganda! Un fucking believable!
BBC writes about War crimes being committed in Ukraine, the dead bodies, the mistreatment of civilians. Big, bold headlines! If you read the entire article and not just the headlines, you will find the sentence « However, the BBC could find no evidence to support these claims ». Too late the misinformation is now viral. In the days when I worked for a well known American publication, nothing was printed until the team of assistant editors had fact checked every quote, every number through multiple different sources. If the majority were in agreement with what was in the article, it got published. If a claim cannot be substantiated, you either make that clear or you don’t publish. That to me is taking the profession seriously!
Thank you Caitlin. And - your husband Tim’s continues to be the absolutely best voice I know among all podcasts !! Pleasant to hear and very professional -- the best delivery imaginable.
If nukes only vaporized cheerleaders for nuclear war, I would be all in for ww3.
Remind me ... is this Hate Week? Is Oceania now at war with Eastasia or Eurasia? ;-)
The West is at war with Russia.
Wish it would stop.
Of course Russia has to win, i agree fully and didn't suggest otherwise.
I wish the US will stop the Agression
In the wake of 9/11 a Ukrainian air defense shot down a Russian civilian airplane over Black Sea. As a result rumors circulated the NYC govt was to hire Ukrainians to protect against civilian aircraft.
I think newkraine nUkraine shot that missile as a false flag, not necessarily at Russian incoming...m
The course was too far off target...
I think your article unjustly ignores this probability so I had to stop reading it thereby, but I applaud your efforts I guess
That could be true, but it may not be, and the point is the media in the west jumped to the conclusion the missile came from Russia. Personally I thought Ukraine did send that missile since they seem held bent on extending this war and want no resolution, and why would they with all that cash flow coming in. I don't trust Zelensky, and think of him as very self serving.
There is a US domestic variant of the North Korea Law Of Journalism.
The closer the story comes to exposing abuses by corporate power, particularly as those abuses are enabled or promoted by Democratic Party controlled government (or deregulation, privatization, corporate subsides, and other Neoliberal policies), then there is the same evidentiary standards operating!
If news media merely applied the same principles to all their sourcing that they apply to Donald Trump, it would help. Routinely when Trump says anything, media feel compelled to add a qualifier such as "baseless" or "without any supporting evidence." The same locutions could be used with nearly any source the media lazily use.
I'm ashamed to admit that I worked in newspaper journalism for 32 years. But one useful thing I learned is that anonymous officials quoted in stories are allowed to offer seemingly independent support for their own comments. For instance, an unnamed US State Dept. official may ask to be identified that way for one comment and then demand to be identified as a "Western diplomat" in another comment in the same story. Hence it sounds as if two independent fatheads are confirming each other when it's only an echo. Reporters routinely go along with the crap.
And as usual the Republicans leaders are DOING NOTHING
....sorry (not really!), ''they'' (populus) deserve this!...as G. Carlin said: EDUCATION IN AMERICA, ..one is educated 'nuff' to put 2 things together, and Sunday beer and footbal.... oops and other few sports, depend on season ...
Well, the death penalty is harsh, which could explain why "a harsh sentence" could be interpreted as a death sentence - if you're very stupid. As for the the Ukraine rocket being identified by the trigger-happy as Russian, it just proves there is a death wish in the air, and we should shut such types down, free speech not-withstanding. NATO's " pause button" with the truth amounts to a gross lie, and criminal negligence.