I occasionally engage with zionists too like Berlin's police claiming in a tweet yesterday that public prosecutors identify "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" to be punishable by law
Which is irrelevant because thats not up to public prosecutors
Thus I left a comment with the slogan five times in capslock
But Europe seems to be getting strange on this, isn't it? Doubling down on prosecuting what would be considered free speech in any other context...while beginning to distance themselves from Israel. Kinda looking over their shoulders, to see if the ICC is closing in, while continuing that mysterious mandate to silence anti-Israel speech by any means necessary.
I am sorry to break it to you but distancing from Israel is just a farce. Germanys weapon exports havent been banned, only new approvals. An estimated 500 million Euro worth of weapons has been approved already with no way to know how much of that was sent yet because there are no public records.
Also weapons 'used in Gaza' is deceptive while defensive missiles and systems are still on the table to be approved.
All the commotion and "outrage" in Germanys Bundestag appears to be a part of that same playbook played out to convince society of the legitimacy of that "ban".
For me, it's simple: I do not "engage" with supporters of Israel, ie genocide, but I write, not to convert them, which is futile, but to expose them. This is what Caitlin does, tho with much more skill.
Did you not note I put engage in quotes, suggesting not disengagement but an interaction that is not dialogue but exposure? Engagement with fascists is a recipe to get used. You cannot have an honest engagement with someone lying or in bad faith. In a war with genocidal fascists, considering engagement with them as healthy is pure folly. For them, war is the health of the state, and so our job is not to treat them with respect but to expose their lies and evil motives.
Missed earlier an "engagement" with these gems of yours:
-- "Engagement with fascists is a recipe to get used."
"Get used"? That's a bizarre interpretation of what fascism does. You're (we're) not capable of countering them with arguments?? (regardless of whether, or how many, they are persuadable or not, that's not the point here) I thought fascism was political -- but you're pointing out that it involves obtaining some kind of occult or whatever psychological skill to mess with the minds of the uninitiated?
-- "You cannot have an honest engagement with someone lying or in bad faith. In a war with genocidal fascists, considering engagement with them as healthy is pure folly."
But you need to demonstrate how you know there is actual bad faith. It is not done simply by identifying an *ideology*, and certainly not by fallaciously labeling a group with an ideology. If someone wants to kill you for your identity characteristics, it indicates absolutely nothing about whether they act in bad faith. Sure, they're nuts, but they most often believe their madness.
-- "For them, war is the health of the state"
Further demonstrating your confusion of the psychopaths running the operation with the rank-and-file, the latter who may have *completely different reasons* for obeying the (actual) fascists running the show.
---------------------------
No, I think what's going on here is fear. Yours. *You* don't want people to think freely for themselves. You want people to follow *your* instructions, not compare them with anyone else's, and the best way to do that is to prevent them from hearing from any others who interfere with your monopoly on guidance.
Are they teaching this nonsense in schools now? That would certainly explain the shocking spread of censorship. And from our previous long debate, I do know how frothing at the mouth you are about controlling speech.
When Chamberlin engaged in dialogue with Hitler to bring "peace in our time," it allowed Hitler time to build up his war machine, which then was used to attack Great Britain. So this engagement with fascism, as is always the case, allows the fascists first to use the engatement to legitimize their status and secondly to blunt what is needed with fascists: to destroy them before they destroy you.
Your accusations are without merit You have no interest in understanding what I am writing, based on over 65 years of study, observation, and reflection while studying with some of the greatest political scienctists of the last century. As for frothing at the mouth, which you accuse me of, I would remind you that insults are the weapon of the impotent.
You keep claiming superior intellectual qualities "based on over 65 years of study, observation, and reflection while studying with some of the greatest political scienctists of the last century."
Yet your "When Chamberlin engaged in dialogue with Hitler to bring "peace in our time," it allowed Hitler time to build up his war machine, which then was used to attack Great Britain." reveals utter historical ignorance.
Chamberlain and the West in general weren't "engaging in dialogue with Hitler" but were appeasing him to continue with his publicly stated plans to Drang nach Osten. That the West got attacked first was Stalin's outwitting the Chamberlains of the West in their own game - study the run-up to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. That in turn helped the USSR to get prepared further, push Hitler's ally Nazi Finland away from Leningrad, push its western borders further out, and ensure the West became the eventual USSR's ally.
One-way verbal engagement is not engagement in the normal sense of the word, it is dictation. No one likes to be dictated to, and the result is always blowback.
When you declare by fiat what a person is (e.g. "fascist", "liar", "bad faith") with no opportunity for rebuttal, you are not engaging democratically. Currently, this action is being encouraged *wholesale* against huge swaths of people who assuredly have a range of views and levels of convictions, and therefore cannot be pre-judged. Leave it to actual racists and the like to make those kinds of wholesale dismissals.
"In a war ..." That may be the big difference between us two. It appears you are rather quick to decide you are in a war. I am NEVER in a war (which implies *necessary disengagement*), as opposed to diplomacy, unless and until it is unilaterally (and unambiguously) declared by my opponent. That applies all to any Leftists, alt-Leftists, Rightists, alt-Rightists, woke-ists, and Zionists, and anyone else.
I do agree with Caitlin (and you) that there are bad-faith actors to contend with. I disagree that they can be demarcated solely by their beliefs, or even their ostensible political values, as the latter are constantly misrepresented. It must be done individually, and must be done only by their actions. Caitlin should be encouraging that we become as educated about sophistry as she is, but sadly instead, she's telling us to step aside.
I know you are old enough to remember the lessons we received about "stereotypes" of minorities, gays, etc. back in the day. I have not forgotten those lessons, even if the present climate seems to indicate those lessons may have been taught disingenuously by some, as stereotypes are now used with wild abandon all across today's supposed "Left" about the supposed "sins" of the "Right". You know, the Right they *never engage with*, except through *media-tors*.
For that reason, I *never* disengage with someone until I (believe I) *personally* understand them, and recognize they are at war. (This is Caitlin's point, but it's wholesale by ideology, which is the problem.) For example, the thought of never (being seen) talking to an (actual) racist because I might get my reputation sullied is repugnant.
Please read carefully; "interaction" is not one way as you interpreted but a series of questions and answers which, in a Socratic fashion, seeks to expose fallacies and expose lies. And, as I pointed out already, the term "engagement" was put in quotes precisely to suggest it was being used in a particular way, which I also explaned. You need to learn to read to understand.
Sure, you can play 3-card monte swapping which primary, secondary and tertiary word meanings to talk about all day, but that monomania won't get us far. Maybe that's your goal.
So how about the gist of the rest of what I said? About encouraging widespread, uncontrolled, unsupervised, dialogue, you know, without our mommies looking over us ... or not.
Putting quotes around a word suggests directly an unusual or nuanced use of the word, often satirical or dubious. Taking the quotes off is misreading and misquoting.
"Putting quotes around a word suggests directly an unusual or nuanced use of the word, often satirical or dubious"
I can appreciate that.
"Taking the quotes off is misreading and misquoting."
You are saying you "do not 'engage'", but in combining the negative with the quote marks, it's not obvious what you endorse. Do you, in fact, engage, as you do not quote-engage-unquote? I ignored that confusion and went straight to my point, triggered by the word (quoted or not): Engagement matters. It's hardly a misreading.
this problem is endemic with modern civilization. the internet has democratized opinion: now every dipshit not only has a soapbox, but believes 100% that he or she has a right to spew whatever nonsense. People have become radical egalitarians: refusing to believe they might not know very much at all: or know anything true.
Noone wants to admit ignorance: especially profound ignorance.
I say silence 99.7% of the online bullshit.
Proles are to be seen & not heard: unless theyre credentialed i'd prefer they not even formulate opinions.
"While Zionists certainly may be called idiots, those “idiots” are leading the so-called leaders of the “free world” around by the nose. What does that say about those leaders—or that “free world”?"
Agreed, that's why it is high time to set up schools to teach us all how to conquer modern sophistry. We can't only be relying on the talented and learned to "save" us. How might we do this?
So pleased to see someone else look at things for an other angle. I love Caitlin`s writing, but I find her positions too narrow at times. Have to say, I found this post almost condescending, Yes I agree she has a following and should take a lead in enraging against Zionsits, but to caution others not rubs me the wrong the wrong way. I fully agree it is of the upmost importance that we / everyone never cease engaging with people, particularly when they are engaging in anti-social / inhuman practices, shunning and isolation is not a solution , never has been. Isolate people and they do not become more amicable, in fact they often become more resentful, and belligerent and vengeful. If we learn anything from Social Media, numbers matter, not necessarily context. Love to know your thoughts on the recent Norman Finkelstein v. Cornel West debate
Public debate is about persuading the audience, not the person you are debating with.
This applies also to the many online public spaces.
Therefore, when framing your online arguments, consider what will persuade your real audience--a reasonable reader--rather than trying to persuade whoever you are directly responding to.
Exactly. It's pointless debating Zionists and Israel supporters if your intended point is to change their mind or impress upon them new facts. The only point is to make accurate rebuttals to their many talking points and lies to visible to others who may happen to be reading the discussion, and for posterity.
"... consider what will persuade your real audience--a reasonable reader"
Agreed. But remember that your entire audience is, potentially, "reasonable". There are no such things as hopeless arguments, no matter how hopeless they/it seems.
Caitlin is right that we confront a martial audience whose stealth attitude is war, not diplomacy, but she is wrong that the vast majority of us disengage from them. Instead, we should all (or at least large numbers of us) become sufficiently educated and trained to meet the challenge.
I don’t think Caitlin is asking us to entirely disengage from bad faith supporters of Israel/Zionism.
I think she is just warning us of the risk of getting caught up in a discussion in which we get so frustrated, angered or riled up that we end up saying silly things which may (or may not) ‘win’ the argument but result in putting off the convincible target audience.
I agree that we need to become educated and trained to be effective communicators. I would also add we need to be disciplined enough to know when to bow out of a discussion and get us a bit more of that education and training before we enter the fray again.
Agree that when entering into any discussion with a committed Zionist, you should always be mindful of the target audience. The object is not to convince or beat down the Zionist.
But unless you have the skill to guide or contain the discussion to what you consider relevant, you will often find yourself engaged in a useless circular debate, ie, how to define antisemitism. Once this happens, cease discussion and reflect on how you were unable to curtail ‘hasbara manipulation.
We all just need to get better at not allowing ourselves to be goaded into the circular nothingness of most defences of Zionism.
I realised this too. I never address their “facts”. If I have the energy, I just tell them that they’re doing a good job of pushing people away from them and furthering the palestinian cause. Or I say whoever’s paying them should ask for their money back because they’re doing a good job of turning people anti-Zionists. So far that has worked.
Love it, thanks! Yeah, I don't think anyone could possibly make Israel and the Zionists look as bad as they make themselves look bad. They seem to be their own worst enemy. Well, hopefully Israeli society/culture will implode one way or another (my only regret is that I might not live long enough to see it happen).
😂😂😂 Pardon me for laughing, but this guy, Netanyahu, really can’t think that we believe the bombs we saw drop from the sky was not dropped by the IDF under his command and orders. He has got to be the biggest liar ever, doesn’t want us to believe our own eyes, thinks white phosphorous was just shooting stars and evaporating bodies was CGI. Is he trying to get the men in the white coats to take him into custody? I’ve seen liars in my day, but he is definitely on top of the heap. Unbelievable.
"Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu now says the shocking images of Gaza’s completely flattened landscape aren’t the result of months of Israeli airstrikes, artillery, and systematic bulldozer operations—but because “Hamas booby traps every single building.” In his words: “The reason you see the flattened buildings is because Hamas booby traps every single building… After we move in…we put in an APC with a lot of explosives. Detonate it. It sets off all the booby traps and the buildings begin to collapse.” This is the leader of a military campaign that has systematically and deliberately razed entire cities and towns in Gaza block by block."
He's a zionist, they are taught from birth that they are so superior that anything they say will be lapped up like a starving dog its first food in months. He cannot understand (get it through his thick skull) that people are wising up to his lies, that we are not as dumb as he hopes we are.
Maybe he thinks his ban on reporters from around the world kept the real deal out of the media. But he is so wrong, the real media, on the ground journalists, tell their story and showed the bombs dropping on innocents. He may have killed over 200 journalist in order to keep the news out of the headlines, he may have thought he silenced the Palestinians by cutting off electricity, but he just doesn't realize how resilient the Palestinians are. Not to mention all the IDF's videos that they were proud to display on social media. He sounds like he's losing his mind if he thinks we believe that Hamas bobby-trapped every single building in Gaza. The problem is he is not getting any real push-back from Western leaders or the mainstream press. They have given him a false sense of security to the point that he thinks folks believe what he says. At this point he looks clownish in his ridiculous statements. It's like you want him to just be quiet and take some time off to take his foot out of his mouth. SMDH
I'd prefer not hearing his voice ever, which is why I turn off the sound and just read the script, who wants to listen to another nut case sounding off with onsense.
I live on a street that is populated by Zionists. I never talk to any of them. I cross the road to where there are normal people living to walk my dog. I had to listen to one, once, in the park proudly talking about her children in Israel. All I could think to say was that's too bad. But I didn't . It is not worth it. Their minds are narrow and I don't want to waste my time with them. The one time I had an exchange with one of them, she told me that I must love Hamas because I didn't want to buy grapefruit from Israel. So I told her not to be stupid and left before I got really rude. It isn't worth becoming an abusive person myself to try to make sense with these people.
Wow, that's hard, living amongst them. They actually exist, then...!
If anyone accused me of 'living Hamas' I just agree with them. I say I fully support them and their cause. But that would be a lot harder to do face to face!
I neither love nor hate Hamas. It is just stupid to comment on my feelings about Hamas when we are faced with the inhumanity of the IDF committing genocide. It would have been more intelligent and maybe more honest of her to just say that she supports Israel because that would give me the option of arguing with her. To say that I love Hamas is just idiotic.
I have met a Jewish farmer. There are many zionists in my neighbourhood. I surmise this because so many of them go to Israel and some have well known Zionist relatives. Jewish people are just fine by me if they are not Zionist.
Thank you for reminding me Caitlin. The same applies to climate change deniers . There’s now no excuse for ignorance of the facts, which means good faith arguments about the truth are pointless - they know, they just don’t care.
Do they know? Yes, probably. But the climate crisis denial conspiracy, that got a huge boost from the 'covid' debacle, saying that the climate has always changed and that any changes in the climate are now due to chem trails, cloud seeding and obscure experiments in Alaska, all to control us with renewables and dairy free cities etc etc makes it very easy for them to find a framework for denial. I watched the targeting on social media and I think alot of them actually believe it. It was made easy to fool them of a conspiracy by the implementation absurd unevidence measures for 'covid'. 'Covid' dissenter's good faith arguments were ignored then; so they've given up with good faith now.
I saw someone just the other day claiming that the wildfires in France and Italy were started deliberately to back up their false climate claims. I mean...what?... what would be the point of that? Like blowing up the entire world's nuclear arsenal in a giant Armageddon to prove nuclear weapons were bad?
Yep, they also claim that wildfires are started by DEWs (direct energy weapons, lasers I think) for ‘land grabs’. I think land grabbing from the global majority is what the West has been doing for hundreds of years but now it’s the WEF who are doing it in Europe and the States. Something like that.
Oh yeah, the land grab thing...I suppose looking at Israel's ongoing land grab it's easy to see where that belief might have originated, but it doesn't explain why 1000s of firefighters put their lives at risk by going along with it!
I think the firefighters would be collateral damage. Yes, the irony is that there is ongoing land grabbing and neocolonialism- like the attempt to weaken and break up Russia using 100,000s of Ukrainian (and Russian) lives. The whole ‘land grab’ language helpfully deflects from the US’s ‘complete global dominance’ policy, which is what is actually happening. Who is behind this policy? US based fossil fuels, animal ag, arms, pharma, tech, AI and media of course. The people behind the spreading climate crisis denial and DEW nonsense.
True unfortunately - arsonists caught on film eg California 'wildfires' also drones seen dropping combustibles to cause fires worldwide. The 'Global Warming' scam is worth trillions a year in 'green taxes' etc but also is a great way to scare everyone that the planet will burn to ashes if we greedy lazy humans do not change our ways. Its becom e a religion & taught in schools as fact when it is not. If you doubt the evil of 'wild' fires set on purpose just look at huge number of climate experts refuting 'Climate Change' with facts not fear. In fact if you can find it, I saw months ago a quote by Rockerfeller or similar billionaire psycho saying that they had to find a way to bring in vast surveillance ( 'green' agenda checks what we eat, where we go, how we get there, what we buy etc) The planet's welfare becomes more important than human welfare, human life. making depopulation seem necessary.. It has worked... People not having children 'to save the planet' & of course Globalist governments are thrilled to be able to get rid of many 'Useless Eaters' via 'Assisted Suicide' laws, 'Abortion up till birth laws'..etc....The word to shudder at is 'Sustainability'...A vague catch-all used by,for eg ( 'King' Charles of the World Economic Forum & his mentor for decades Schwab) to con us into believing that most things we do are very very bad for the planet..Clearly some things can be improved but the main destroyers of the planet are the corporations/ warmongers who poison seas, rivers, land, skies and more with thousands of tons of bombs and other i industrial poisons every year.
i never engage with fascists, racists, misogynists, transphobs, zionists. they will always try to engage in a debate or argument in an effort for legitimacy. don't engage in their specious and hateful arguments. shut them down. call them fucking fascist hasbara sociopathic clowns. tell them to go back to that rock they crawled out from under and ... wither away. the world will not miss them. they should be treated as loathsome pariahs and vile pissants.
If we all knew exactly who these vile pissants were life would be a lot easier. But this is of course debatable. Take 'transphobs'. I might be called a 'transphobe' for standing up for women's and girl's protected rights to same sex changing rooms, prison cells, sports and rape crisis centres. Perhaps this means that you just tell me to crawl away?
It won't get the issue sorted out though will it?
The reason women don't want men who identity as women in women's sports is not because these men are trans, it's because they're men. Men should be in men's sports and prisons, where they belong. If the men don't welcome them in you can accurately call them transphobic.
quite revealing and disingenuous. taking transphobic right wing talking points and uncritically assuming their validity in order to hide a deeper transphobia. confusing 'sex' with 'gender'. no word on gender dysphoria or high suicide rates among trans people, which also includes trans men. no mention of disproportionately high murder rates or unemployment among trans people. no mention of severe social isolation and rejection. for u, trans people are reduced to trans women who in turn are reduced to just men who decided for no real reason to wear women's clothing in a move to further disempower women and therefore as 'men' (who happen to be wearing women's clothing) are still a threat to women. but where's the evidence?
so, your right. fuck off u vile transphobic pissant!
Congratulations. If you refuse to find out *why* a human being thinks and behaves as they do, you are dehumanizing them. That's what Zionists do to Palestinians. Don't be their mirror image. And, no, "evil" or "stupidity" isn't a reason, it's the refusal to investigate a reason.
Arguing with a zionist is like playing chess with a pigeon -it knocks over the pieces, craps on the board, and struts around like it won the game. Never waste more than 5 mins arguing with a zionist, lest they drag your functional mind down to their level with their https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop and general BS. Zionism genocide apologists operate mostly the same as climate denial trolls, and the only reason to engage with any of these selfish, deluded wastes of time is to demonstrate to the audience/readers what a bunch of liars they are, and what a load of horse manure their arguments are. Highly recommended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_Every_Argument
If they managed to drag me to their level with their replies then I would be using four letter cursing non-stop. The truly with some truly vile suggestions, mist of which are impossible to do - I think.
I give a response with the truth, they return with some inanity. I return a with another truth, after their second impossible to do reply I block them and move on.
Each day now I limit myself to how much time I spend on this torture of Palestinians, otherwise I can become so depressed I want to cut myself off from everyone.
Right now I'm worried because I cannot contact the young female Palestinian journalist I was in contact with. This is the third day of silence. I'm hoping someone here might know how or where I can ask about her.
If this last paragraph is not okay with you, Caitlin, please delete it from comments.
She and I made contact every day, sometimes more than once, so to have nothing for this long is scary. I will try those and hopefully will find out she's okay just not able to make contact.
Haha, love it. I shall keep that analogy in mind the next time I 'observe' them arguing. Thanks for the laugh, they're a bit thin on the ground these days.
What we should ask our politicians and media is "what took you so long" to come up with your token gestures - like belatedly promising to recognise a Palestine state - in order to whitewash a genocide...
It was not until the people kept coming out in increasing numbers that western Governments finally started to take some baby steps to stop the genocide.
The numbers of people protesting and the variety of ways in which we protest will need to continue and increase if we want to see effective action against Israel.
When I contemplate the mendacity of Zionists, I am reminded of my whole life and the lying culture that nurtured my disdain for its plastic values. Most Americans are unconscious Zionists. Religion and morality were pumped into the ether while non-white peasants and laborers were being slaughtered and quietly buried like the news of their lives interrupted. This began long before I was born, and it has never waned.
Gaza is a haunting image that the West’s masses are destined to be seeing in their sleep in their daydreams in their hollow reflections as they window shop for life’s meaning.
So many messages in America are intended to seduce the young into loyal, obedient servitude.
“When you’ve done your best, dig deeper and do better!”
“Give until it hurts!”
“Everybody cheats, but there can only be one winner!”
“If you weren’t cheating, you weren’t trying hard enough!”
The trained professionals at the CIA have perfected the art of lying…for our protection. Those honorable professional liars are the ghost writers for the mainstream media. Our political elites are their soldiers.
This reality sucks. Gaza will be the American Empire’s one-word epitaph.
Valid criticism of Israeli crimes against humanity is exactly that nothing more nothing less
However this appears to invite the predictable response by the Hasbara that any criticism of the Israeli apartheid state amounts to anti Semitism when in reality and what they've really done is ignoring the facts by responding with a Red Herring.
They never did ,or they would not have to lie about their History and who they are instead of stealing and Hijacking another peoples land History and Legacy, ditching the original bible and wrote they OWN Scofield Bible because the original did not fit their Jewish Narrative of White Jesus born in the Desert in the middle of Black and Brown People, Surrounded by Black and Brown People, like a little "Mini European state" existing and sitting in the Middle of Palestine since the beginning of time. they also would not have to resort to GENOCIDE to try and get rid of the people whose land they occupy and is trying to wipe out their existence
ISRAEL will PAY for their Crimes one way or another. The REAL GOD ,don't like UGLY
Well I jut used the word God because that's what everything they do is evolved around. I am anon believer myself left all this Creationist Bullcarp from I turned 12 years old and could not be forced to go to church anymore .I am 78 years old now. My whole family are Christians, Catholic and other denomination my Mom is also, she is now 102 years old is a Christian ,but not really deep in it. I am the only non believer out of 7 Kids ,well my 5th brother is like me He is 63 years old. I have 5 brothers and one sister ,I am the eldest
"All the young people who’ve witnessed history’s first live-streamed genocide are going to be running the world someday, and they are not going to want to have anything to do with the state of Israel."
Don't underestimate the power of Big Money to win hearts and minds. I thought my 1960's generation was going to change things for the better. How wrong I was.
You are an Inspiration, Caitlin
I occasionally engage with zionists too like Berlin's police claiming in a tweet yesterday that public prosecutors identify "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" to be punishable by law
Which is irrelevant because thats not up to public prosecutors
Thus I left a comment with the slogan five times in capslock
Dont be bullied into silence folks
But Europe seems to be getting strange on this, isn't it? Doubling down on prosecuting what would be considered free speech in any other context...while beginning to distance themselves from Israel. Kinda looking over their shoulders, to see if the ICC is closing in, while continuing that mysterious mandate to silence anti-Israel speech by any means necessary.
I am sorry to break it to you but distancing from Israel is just a farce. Germanys weapon exports havent been banned, only new approvals. An estimated 500 million Euro worth of weapons has been approved already with no way to know how much of that was sent yet because there are no public records.
Also weapons 'used in Gaza' is deceptive while defensive missiles and systems are still on the table to be approved.
All the commotion and "outrage" in Germanys Bundestag appears to be a part of that same playbook played out to convince society of the legitimacy of that "ban".
Germany is run by genocidal freaks, again.
I get the same feeling. Paradoxical behavior. They've seen this rise of a psychopathic empire before, and they are scared. Scared and disorganized.
For me, it's simple: I do not "engage" with supporters of Israel, ie genocide, but I write, not to convert them, which is futile, but to expose them. This is what Caitlin does, tho with much more skill.
Engagement is the health of a society. Disengagement is somebody else's divide-and-conquer, witting or unwitting.
Did you not note I put engage in quotes, suggesting not disengagement but an interaction that is not dialogue but exposure? Engagement with fascists is a recipe to get used. You cannot have an honest engagement with someone lying or in bad faith. In a war with genocidal fascists, considering engagement with them as healthy is pure folly. For them, war is the health of the state, and so our job is not to treat them with respect but to expose their lies and evil motives.
Missed earlier an "engagement" with these gems of yours:
-- "Engagement with fascists is a recipe to get used."
"Get used"? That's a bizarre interpretation of what fascism does. You're (we're) not capable of countering them with arguments?? (regardless of whether, or how many, they are persuadable or not, that's not the point here) I thought fascism was political -- but you're pointing out that it involves obtaining some kind of occult or whatever psychological skill to mess with the minds of the uninitiated?
-- "You cannot have an honest engagement with someone lying or in bad faith. In a war with genocidal fascists, considering engagement with them as healthy is pure folly."
But you need to demonstrate how you know there is actual bad faith. It is not done simply by identifying an *ideology*, and certainly not by fallaciously labeling a group with an ideology. If someone wants to kill you for your identity characteristics, it indicates absolutely nothing about whether they act in bad faith. Sure, they're nuts, but they most often believe their madness.
-- "For them, war is the health of the state"
Further demonstrating your confusion of the psychopaths running the operation with the rank-and-file, the latter who may have *completely different reasons* for obeying the (actual) fascists running the show.
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No, I think what's going on here is fear. Yours. *You* don't want people to think freely for themselves. You want people to follow *your* instructions, not compare them with anyone else's, and the best way to do that is to prevent them from hearing from any others who interfere with your monopoly on guidance.
Are they teaching this nonsense in schools now? That would certainly explain the shocking spread of censorship. And from our previous long debate, I do know how frothing at the mouth you are about controlling speech.
When Chamberlin engaged in dialogue with Hitler to bring "peace in our time," it allowed Hitler time to build up his war machine, which then was used to attack Great Britain. So this engagement with fascism, as is always the case, allows the fascists first to use the engatement to legitimize their status and secondly to blunt what is needed with fascists: to destroy them before they destroy you.
Your accusations are without merit You have no interest in understanding what I am writing, based on over 65 years of study, observation, and reflection while studying with some of the greatest political scienctists of the last century. As for frothing at the mouth, which you accuse me of, I would remind you that insults are the weapon of the impotent.
You keep claiming superior intellectual qualities "based on over 65 years of study, observation, and reflection while studying with some of the greatest political scienctists of the last century."
Yet your "When Chamberlin engaged in dialogue with Hitler to bring "peace in our time," it allowed Hitler time to build up his war machine, which then was used to attack Great Britain." reveals utter historical ignorance.
Chamberlain and the West in general weren't "engaging in dialogue with Hitler" but were appeasing him to continue with his publicly stated plans to Drang nach Osten. That the West got attacked first was Stalin's outwitting the Chamberlains of the West in their own game - study the run-up to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. That in turn helped the USSR to get prepared further, push Hitler's ally Nazi Finland away from Leningrad, push its western borders further out, and ensure the West became the eventual USSR's ally.
One-way verbal engagement is not engagement in the normal sense of the word, it is dictation. No one likes to be dictated to, and the result is always blowback.
When you declare by fiat what a person is (e.g. "fascist", "liar", "bad faith") with no opportunity for rebuttal, you are not engaging democratically. Currently, this action is being encouraged *wholesale* against huge swaths of people who assuredly have a range of views and levels of convictions, and therefore cannot be pre-judged. Leave it to actual racists and the like to make those kinds of wholesale dismissals.
"In a war ..." That may be the big difference between us two. It appears you are rather quick to decide you are in a war. I am NEVER in a war (which implies *necessary disengagement*), as opposed to diplomacy, unless and until it is unilaterally (and unambiguously) declared by my opponent. That applies all to any Leftists, alt-Leftists, Rightists, alt-Rightists, woke-ists, and Zionists, and anyone else.
I do agree with Caitlin (and you) that there are bad-faith actors to contend with. I disagree that they can be demarcated solely by their beliefs, or even their ostensible political values, as the latter are constantly misrepresented. It must be done individually, and must be done only by their actions. Caitlin should be encouraging that we become as educated about sophistry as she is, but sadly instead, she's telling us to step aside.
I know you are old enough to remember the lessons we received about "stereotypes" of minorities, gays, etc. back in the day. I have not forgotten those lessons, even if the present climate seems to indicate those lessons may have been taught disingenuously by some, as stereotypes are now used with wild abandon all across today's supposed "Left" about the supposed "sins" of the "Right". You know, the Right they *never engage with*, except through *media-tors*.
For that reason, I *never* disengage with someone until I (believe I) *personally* understand them, and recognize they are at war. (This is Caitlin's point, but it's wholesale by ideology, which is the problem.) For example, the thought of never (being seen) talking to an (actual) racist because I might get my reputation sullied is repugnant.
Please read carefully; "interaction" is not one way as you interpreted but a series of questions and answers which, in a Socratic fashion, seeks to expose fallacies and expose lies. And, as I pointed out already, the term "engagement" was put in quotes precisely to suggest it was being used in a particular way, which I also explaned. You need to learn to read to understand.
Sure, you can play 3-card monte swapping which primary, secondary and tertiary word meanings to talk about all day, but that monomania won't get us far. Maybe that's your goal.
So how about the gist of the rest of what I said? About encouraging widespread, uncontrolled, unsupervised, dialogue, you know, without our mommies looking over us ... or not.
Woo, you used the word disengage. Nooooooo!
Explain, please.
Putting quotes around a word suggests directly an unusual or nuanced use of the word, often satirical or dubious. Taking the quotes off is misreading and misquoting.
"Putting quotes around a word suggests directly an unusual or nuanced use of the word, often satirical or dubious"
I can appreciate that.
"Taking the quotes off is misreading and misquoting."
You are saying you "do not 'engage'", but in combining the negative with the quote marks, it's not obvious what you endorse. Do you, in fact, engage, as you do not quote-engage-unquote? I ignored that confusion and went straight to my point, triggered by the word (quoted or not): Engagement matters. It's hardly a misreading.
Never argue with an idiot and never argue with a zionist, but I repeat myself.
Trying to have a conversation with them is like feeding an online troll; it's an exercise in futility and only serves to amplify their hate speech.
Hi Marci
I don’t engage with them. I cut them out of my life, including family members. Why would I want to engage with psychopaths?
this problem is endemic with modern civilization. the internet has democratized opinion: now every dipshit not only has a soapbox, but believes 100% that he or she has a right to spew whatever nonsense. People have become radical egalitarians: refusing to believe they might not know very much at all: or know anything true.
Noone wants to admit ignorance: especially profound ignorance.
I say silence 99.7% of the online bullshit.
Proles are to be seen & not heard: unless theyre credentialed i'd prefer they not even formulate opinions.
"While Zionists certainly may be called idiots, those “idiots” are leading the so-called leaders of the “free world” around by the nose. What does that say about those leaders—or that “free world”?"
that theyre capitalists.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's essential to give Israel supporters feedback. I know how impervious they are, but they need to know that people see through their bull shit!
They also need to know how isolated they are.
They will realise this when people stop entertaining their evil word games.
Agreed, that's why it is high time to set up schools to teach us all how to conquer modern sophistry. We can't only be relying on the talented and learned to "save" us. How might we do this?
So pleased to see someone else look at things for an other angle. I love Caitlin`s writing, but I find her positions too narrow at times. Have to say, I found this post almost condescending, Yes I agree she has a following and should take a lead in enraging against Zionsits, but to caution others not rubs me the wrong the wrong way. I fully agree it is of the upmost importance that we / everyone never cease engaging with people, particularly when they are engaging in anti-social / inhuman practices, shunning and isolation is not a solution , never has been. Isolate people and they do not become more amicable, in fact they often become more resentful, and belligerent and vengeful. If we learn anything from Social Media, numbers matter, not necessarily context. Love to know your thoughts on the recent Norman Finkelstein v. Cornel West debate
why does it matter?
knowing opposition exists doesnt distract them from their happiness.
Dont let anyone live rent free in your head.
It might make you feel relieved to scream at idiots.
But ...thats masturbation.
Public debate is about persuading the audience, not the person you are debating with.
This applies also to the many online public spaces.
Therefore, when framing your online arguments, consider what will persuade your real audience--a reasonable reader--rather than trying to persuade whoever you are directly responding to.
(There are exceptions.)
Exactly. It's pointless debating Zionists and Israel supporters if your intended point is to change their mind or impress upon them new facts. The only point is to make accurate rebuttals to their many talking points and lies to visible to others who may happen to be reading the discussion, and for posterity.
Yes exactly, we can't allow them to spread their hateful hasbara without us ripping their ridiculous arguments to shreds.
"... consider what will persuade your real audience--a reasonable reader"
Agreed. But remember that your entire audience is, potentially, "reasonable". There are no such things as hopeless arguments, no matter how hopeless they/it seems.
Caitlin is right that we confront a martial audience whose stealth attitude is war, not diplomacy, but she is wrong that the vast majority of us disengage from them. Instead, we should all (or at least large numbers of us) become sufficiently educated and trained to meet the challenge.
I don’t think Caitlin is asking us to entirely disengage from bad faith supporters of Israel/Zionism.
I think she is just warning us of the risk of getting caught up in a discussion in which we get so frustrated, angered or riled up that we end up saying silly things which may (or may not) ‘win’ the argument but result in putting off the convincible target audience.
I agree that we need to become educated and trained to be effective communicators. I would also add we need to be disciplined enough to know when to bow out of a discussion and get us a bit more of that education and training before we enter the fray again.
Agree that when entering into any discussion with a committed Zionist, you should always be mindful of the target audience. The object is not to convince or beat down the Zionist.
But unless you have the skill to guide or contain the discussion to what you consider relevant, you will often find yourself engaged in a useless circular debate, ie, how to define antisemitism. Once this happens, cease discussion and reflect on how you were unable to curtail ‘hasbara manipulation.
We all just need to get better at not allowing ourselves to be goaded into the circular nothingness of most defences of Zionism.
Good point
I realised this too. I never address their “facts”. If I have the energy, I just tell them that they’re doing a good job of pushing people away from them and furthering the palestinian cause. Or I say whoever’s paying them should ask for their money back because they’re doing a good job of turning people anti-Zionists. So far that has worked.
Love it, thanks! Yeah, I don't think anyone could possibly make Israel and the Zionists look as bad as they make themselves look bad. They seem to be their own worst enemy. Well, hopefully Israeli society/culture will implode one way or another (my only regret is that I might not live long enough to see it happen).
😂😂😂 Pardon me for laughing, but this guy, Netanyahu, really can’t think that we believe the bombs we saw drop from the sky was not dropped by the IDF under his command and orders. He has got to be the biggest liar ever, doesn’t want us to believe our own eyes, thinks white phosphorous was just shooting stars and evaporating bodies was CGI. Is he trying to get the men in the white coats to take him into custody? I’ve seen liars in my day, but he is definitely on top of the heap. Unbelievable.
You have to watch Netanyahu in action. https://x.com/DropSiteNews/status/1953518909300388205
"Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu now says the shocking images of Gaza’s completely flattened landscape aren’t the result of months of Israeli airstrikes, artillery, and systematic bulldozer operations—but because “Hamas booby traps every single building.” In his words: “The reason you see the flattened buildings is because Hamas booby traps every single building… After we move in…we put in an APC with a lot of explosives. Detonate it. It sets off all the booby traps and the buildings begin to collapse.” This is the leader of a military campaign that has systematically and deliberately razed entire cities and towns in Gaza block by block."
He's a zionist, they are taught from birth that they are so superior that anything they say will be lapped up like a starving dog its first food in months. He cannot understand (get it through his thick skull) that people are wising up to his lies, that we are not as dumb as he hopes we are.
Maybe he thinks his ban on reporters from around the world kept the real deal out of the media. But he is so wrong, the real media, on the ground journalists, tell their story and showed the bombs dropping on innocents. He may have killed over 200 journalist in order to keep the news out of the headlines, he may have thought he silenced the Palestinians by cutting off electricity, but he just doesn't realize how resilient the Palestinians are. Not to mention all the IDF's videos that they were proud to display on social media. He sounds like he's losing his mind if he thinks we believe that Hamas bobby-trapped every single building in Gaza. The problem is he is not getting any real push-back from Western leaders or the mainstream press. They have given him a false sense of security to the point that he thinks folks believe what he says. At this point he looks clownish in his ridiculous statements. It's like you want him to just be quiet and take some time off to take his foot out of his mouth. SMDH
I'd prefer not hearing his voice ever, which is why I turn off the sound and just read the script, who wants to listen to another nut case sounding off with onsense.
That's funny, I do the same thing.
I live on a street that is populated by Zionists. I never talk to any of them. I cross the road to where there are normal people living to walk my dog. I had to listen to one, once, in the park proudly talking about her children in Israel. All I could think to say was that's too bad. But I didn't . It is not worth it. Their minds are narrow and I don't want to waste my time with them. The one time I had an exchange with one of them, she told me that I must love Hamas because I didn't want to buy grapefruit from Israel. So I told her not to be stupid and left before I got really rude. It isn't worth becoming an abusive person myself to try to make sense with these people.
Wow, that's hard, living amongst them. They actually exist, then...!
If anyone accused me of 'living Hamas' I just agree with them. I say I fully support them and their cause. But that would be a lot harder to do face to face!
*loving*
I neither love nor hate Hamas. It is just stupid to comment on my feelings about Hamas when we are faced with the inhumanity of the IDF committing genocide. It would have been more intelligent and maybe more honest of her to just say that she supports Israel because that would give me the option of arguing with her. To say that I love Hamas is just idiotic.
Yeesh. Poor you, Susan.
Ain’t no Jooz in my neck of the woods, nor do we want any. Of course when’s the last time you heard of a Jewish farmer 😂
I have met a Jewish farmer. There are many zionists in my neighbourhood. I surmise this because so many of them go to Israel and some have well known Zionist relatives. Jewish people are just fine by me if they are not Zionist.
Thank you for reminding me Caitlin. The same applies to climate change deniers . There’s now no excuse for ignorance of the facts, which means good faith arguments about the truth are pointless - they know, they just don’t care.
Do they know? Yes, probably. But the climate crisis denial conspiracy, that got a huge boost from the 'covid' debacle, saying that the climate has always changed and that any changes in the climate are now due to chem trails, cloud seeding and obscure experiments in Alaska, all to control us with renewables and dairy free cities etc etc makes it very easy for them to find a framework for denial. I watched the targeting on social media and I think alot of them actually believe it. It was made easy to fool them of a conspiracy by the implementation absurd unevidence measures for 'covid'. 'Covid' dissenter's good faith arguments were ignored then; so they've given up with good faith now.
I saw someone just the other day claiming that the wildfires in France and Italy were started deliberately to back up their false climate claims. I mean...what?... what would be the point of that? Like blowing up the entire world's nuclear arsenal in a giant Armageddon to prove nuclear weapons were bad?
Yep, they also claim that wildfires are started by DEWs (direct energy weapons, lasers I think) for ‘land grabs’. I think land grabbing from the global majority is what the West has been doing for hundreds of years but now it’s the WEF who are doing it in Europe and the States. Something like that.
Oh yeah, the land grab thing...I suppose looking at Israel's ongoing land grab it's easy to see where that belief might have originated, but it doesn't explain why 1000s of firefighters put their lives at risk by going along with it!
I think the firefighters would be collateral damage. Yes, the irony is that there is ongoing land grabbing and neocolonialism- like the attempt to weaken and break up Russia using 100,000s of Ukrainian (and Russian) lives. The whole ‘land grab’ language helpfully deflects from the US’s ‘complete global dominance’ policy, which is what is actually happening. Who is behind this policy? US based fossil fuels, animal ag, arms, pharma, tech, AI and media of course. The people behind the spreading climate crisis denial and DEW nonsense.
The firefighters might not necessarily be in on the fraud
True unfortunately - arsonists caught on film eg California 'wildfires' also drones seen dropping combustibles to cause fires worldwide. The 'Global Warming' scam is worth trillions a year in 'green taxes' etc but also is a great way to scare everyone that the planet will burn to ashes if we greedy lazy humans do not change our ways. Its becom e a religion & taught in schools as fact when it is not. If you doubt the evil of 'wild' fires set on purpose just look at huge number of climate experts refuting 'Climate Change' with facts not fear. In fact if you can find it, I saw months ago a quote by Rockerfeller or similar billionaire psycho saying that they had to find a way to bring in vast surveillance ( 'green' agenda checks what we eat, where we go, how we get there, what we buy etc) The planet's welfare becomes more important than human welfare, human life. making depopulation seem necessary.. It has worked... People not having children 'to save the planet' & of course Globalist governments are thrilled to be able to get rid of many 'Useless Eaters' via 'Assisted Suicide' laws, 'Abortion up till birth laws'..etc....The word to shudder at is 'Sustainability'...A vague catch-all used by,for eg ( 'King' Charles of the World Economic Forum & his mentor for decades Schwab) to con us into believing that most things we do are very very bad for the planet..Clearly some things can be improved but the main destroyers of the planet are the corporations/ warmongers who poison seas, rivers, land, skies and more with thousands of tons of bombs and other i industrial poisons every year.
i never engage with fascists, racists, misogynists, transphobs, zionists. they will always try to engage in a debate or argument in an effort for legitimacy. don't engage in their specious and hateful arguments. shut them down. call them fucking fascist hasbara sociopathic clowns. tell them to go back to that rock they crawled out from under and ... wither away. the world will not miss them. they should be treated as loathsome pariahs and vile pissants.
If we all knew exactly who these vile pissants were life would be a lot easier. But this is of course debatable. Take 'transphobs'. I might be called a 'transphobe' for standing up for women's and girl's protected rights to same sex changing rooms, prison cells, sports and rape crisis centres. Perhaps this means that you just tell me to crawl away?
It won't get the issue sorted out though will it?
The reason women don't want men who identity as women in women's sports is not because these men are trans, it's because they're men. Men should be in men's sports and prisons, where they belong. If the men don't welcome them in you can accurately call them transphobic.
quite revealing and disingenuous. taking transphobic right wing talking points and uncritically assuming their validity in order to hide a deeper transphobia. confusing 'sex' with 'gender'. no word on gender dysphoria or high suicide rates among trans people, which also includes trans men. no mention of disproportionately high murder rates or unemployment among trans people. no mention of severe social isolation and rejection. for u, trans people are reduced to trans women who in turn are reduced to just men who decided for no real reason to wear women's clothing in a move to further disempower women and therefore as 'men' (who happen to be wearing women's clothing) are still a threat to women. but where's the evidence?
so, your right. fuck off u vile transphobic pissant!
Sadly I think they like that kind of talk. They get sexual pleasure out of it.
Congratulations. If you refuse to find out *why* a human being thinks and behaves as they do, you are dehumanizing them. That's what Zionists do to Palestinians. Don't be their mirror image. And, no, "evil" or "stupidity" isn't a reason, it's the refusal to investigate a reason.
Arguing with a zionist is like playing chess with a pigeon -it knocks over the pieces, craps on the board, and struts around like it won the game. Never waste more than 5 mins arguing with a zionist, lest they drag your functional mind down to their level with their https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop and general BS. Zionism genocide apologists operate mostly the same as climate denial trolls, and the only reason to engage with any of these selfish, deluded wastes of time is to demonstrate to the audience/readers what a bunch of liars they are, and what a load of horse manure their arguments are. Highly recommended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_Every_Argument
If they managed to drag me to their level with their replies then I would be using four letter cursing non-stop. The truly with some truly vile suggestions, mist of which are impossible to do - I think.
I give a response with the truth, they return with some inanity. I return a with another truth, after their second impossible to do reply I block them and move on.
Each day now I limit myself to how much time I spend on this torture of Palestinians, otherwise I can become so depressed I want to cut myself off from everyone.
Right now I'm worried because I cannot contact the young female Palestinian journalist I was in contact with. This is the third day of silence. I'm hoping someone here might know how or where I can ask about her.
If this last paragraph is not okay with you, Caitlin, please delete it from comments.
Sorry Davina, I don't know about your journo contact, but someone at these sites might: https://michaelwest.com.au/category/aap-news/ https://johnmenadue.com/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/palestine-state-of/
Thank you so much, I had no idea who to contact.
She and I made contact every day, sometimes more than once, so to have nothing for this long is scary. I will try those and hopefully will find out she's okay just not able to make contact.
Dearest Sistah Davina, I hope you find her. Please keep us updated.
Thank you, I will.
Haha, love it. I shall keep that analogy in mind the next time I 'observe' them arguing. Thanks for the laugh, they're a bit thin on the ground these days.
Please don’t denigrate horse manure. It’s just recycled grass and hay and it’s excellent fertilizer.
I suggest “dogshit” instead.
Timely advice from Caitlin.
What we should ask our politicians and media is "what took you so long" to come up with your token gestures - like belatedly promising to recognise a Palestine state - in order to whitewash a genocide...
What took them so long? Well, it was us.
It was not until the people kept coming out in increasing numbers that western Governments finally started to take some baby steps to stop the genocide.
The numbers of people protesting and the variety of ways in which we protest will need to continue and increase if we want to see effective action against Israel.
When I contemplate the mendacity of Zionists, I am reminded of my whole life and the lying culture that nurtured my disdain for its plastic values. Most Americans are unconscious Zionists. Religion and morality were pumped into the ether while non-white peasants and laborers were being slaughtered and quietly buried like the news of their lives interrupted. This began long before I was born, and it has never waned.
Gaza is a haunting image that the West’s masses are destined to be seeing in their sleep in their daydreams in their hollow reflections as they window shop for life’s meaning.
So many messages in America are intended to seduce the young into loyal, obedient servitude.
“When you’ve done your best, dig deeper and do better!”
“Give until it hurts!”
“Everybody cheats, but there can only be one winner!”
“If you weren’t cheating, you weren’t trying hard enough!”
The trained professionals at the CIA have perfected the art of lying…for our protection. Those honorable professional liars are the ghost writers for the mainstream media. Our political elites are their soldiers.
This reality sucks. Gaza will be the American Empire’s one-word epitaph.
Valid criticism of Israeli crimes against humanity is exactly that nothing more nothing less
However this appears to invite the predictable response by the Hasbara that any criticism of the Israeli apartheid state amounts to anti Semitism when in reality and what they've really done is ignoring the facts by responding with a Red Herring.
They never did ,or they would not have to lie about their History and who they are instead of stealing and Hijacking another peoples land History and Legacy, ditching the original bible and wrote they OWN Scofield Bible because the original did not fit their Jewish Narrative of White Jesus born in the Desert in the middle of Black and Brown People, Surrounded by Black and Brown People, like a little "Mini European state" existing and sitting in the Middle of Palestine since the beginning of time. they also would not have to resort to GENOCIDE to try and get rid of the people whose land they occupy and is trying to wipe out their existence
ISRAEL will PAY for their Crimes one way or another. The REAL GOD ,don't like UGLY
Atheists don't like ugly either. Doing anything on the grounds of religion, if it hurts someone else, is always wrong.
Well I jut used the word God because that's what everything they do is evolved around. I am anon believer myself left all this Creationist Bullcarp from I turned 12 years old and could not be forced to go to church anymore .I am 78 years old now. My whole family are Christians, Catholic and other denomination my Mom is also, she is now 102 years old is a Christian ,but not really deep in it. I am the only non believer out of 7 Kids ,well my 5th brother is like me He is 63 years old. I have 5 brothers and one sister ,I am the eldest
"All the young people who’ve witnessed history’s first live-streamed genocide are going to be running the world someday, and they are not going to want to have anything to do with the state of Israel."
Don't underestimate the power of Big Money to win hearts and minds. I thought my 1960's generation was going to change things for the better. How wrong I was.