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Diana van Eyk's avatar

Good question. The USA, and the rest of the western world, is becoming increasingly censorious. Why do we want to live in this part of the world? Especially when it's funding genocide, and then censoring reporting on it.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Move out. I did. Many of my younger cousins and nieces have. Taiwan, Japan, Spain, China....

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

Moving out can be considered a form of escapism (or selfishness). How about stay and fight power? How about stay and fight for ALL Americans (and the world)?

How about stay and create (or join) revolutionary organizations and movements? Moving out isn't going to solve anything (other than for yourself - if that is all that you care about).

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Rebel Nun's avatar

We are being suppressed to such a degree that sometimes I think we can do more from the outside. Hope for the world is the Global South, if anywhere.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

The Global South has been supressed by the US Empire. The US Military has over 900 bases all over the world. The US also has dollar hegemony and can print as much money as it wants.

IMO, the only way to take on the US Empire is 'from the inside' - an internal implosion, revolt, revolution,...

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Gnuneo's avatar

Nazi Germany could not be defeated from the inside. The British empire could not be defeated from the inside. The only reason the USSR fell (semi) peacefully is that the people in charge wanted to be good people.

The West has never been about being good people.

It's about a permanent class/race based oligarchy.

When the Normans invaded Britain they massacred 2/3rds of the population, until those who were left accepted their domination. It's the same system, same beliefs today.

We hear a lot about how many French aristos died in their 'revolution'. But never about the 10s if not 100s of thousands of 'peasants' they killed beforehand to prevent the uprising.

I don't blame blame people for fleeing. You'd have to be a fool to stay.

I am a Fool.

I don't get angry at those who are not. Or try to persuade them that staying will make any difference.

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Rebel Nun's avatar

Thank you. I can’t be critical of anyone who is leaving to protect their families.

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denise ward's avatar

The problem is easy to solve - stop the intentional killing our own species for any reason. Desist from using words that suggest eliminating anyone. Our concept of life is f*ed up as a species. No other species, systematically kills their own kind. And the rest of our species may not go out there and kill but they speak about war as though it's a given, as though it will always be. But it only exists because we believe in hierarchy, that someone is above or below someone else when in reality, though we all get handed different cards, each one of us is sovereign. Indeed, every being is, it makes perfect sense, nothing else makes sense. To have some adult, dictate the destiny or actions of another adult is truly primitive behavior. Savages, that's who live the way we do, we just get around in fine suits. Nobody is safe when society accepts the intentional killing of its own kind - for any reason.

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Feral Finster's avatar

The USSR fell because the people in charge wanted to expropriate a larger share of The Goodies for themselves.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

Unfortunately, it is difficult to make a comparison of present-day U.S. with historical examples from the past - as almost EVERYTHING is very different.

Technology is different. US Global military domination is unprecedented. US Dollar hegemony (and America's unlimited printing machine) did not exist. Global capitalism is at a different stage. Systems are different.

Any comparison of present day U.S. with anyting in the past will fail (especially in terms of global economics and technology).

Hence, no one really knows, hence my opinion that an internal implosion/destruction of the U.S. seems more likely to succeed (to me) than external pressure or alliances.

>>"You'd have to be a fool to stay."

No, you would have to be brave, persevering, courageous, patient, resourceful, and many other things in order to stay and fight the US Empire from the inside.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

The French Revolution is widely misunderstood. It was motivated by the oligarchy to avert the King's property tax. The lawyers and artisans of Paris did the heavy lifting. Head tax collect Lavoisier had enclosed Paris with wall to facilitate tax collection, turning the city into a giant prison and outraging the public.

Many of the peasantry went along the revolution, mostly because a drought had made for a a poor harvest and resulting hunger. Many of the peasantry though supported the King. Their resistance was brutally suppressed by the French army.

Mirabeau emerged as the leader of the new Parliament. He died suddenly whereupon it was discovered he had been in the pay of the King. Thus the rise of lawyer Robespierre and the Reign of Terror. Most of the victims thereof were ordinary people, not aristocrats.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"The West has never been about being good people."

The West *invented* the modern democratic principles that eventually spread throughout much of the world ... and allow you today, to complain about them with impunity. Identifying Western societies with the psychopaths/sociopaths who invariably rise up in them -- as they eventually do in every system, everywhere, Western or not -- is silly.

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Rebel Nun's avatar

Maybe both? BRICS and the GS have been working to replace the dollar (against the current, for sure).

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

People have the wrong idea (hopes, dreams) about BRICS+. It is another Capitalist trading bloc to compete against the US Empire and the West. It is not the solution that people think it is.

Unfortunately, there is too much propaganda (and hype) about BRICS, leading people to not consider other alternatives (a capitalist red-herring maybe?)

Here are some resources ->

(1) BRICS: An Anti-Imperialist Fantasy and Sub-Imperialist Reality? - Patrick Bond (pt 1/2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_g_4VvhdWY)

(2) BRICS: Talk Left, Walk Right - Patrick Bond (pt 2/2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvcpGEUTFIY)

(3) BRICS: An Anti-Capitalist Critique (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25102689)

Many more resources on the realities of BRICS+ and the gap between facts and fiction.

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denise ward's avatar

Don't pass it on, we can do it. We allowed it, so now it's on us to tackle it. And I think if we do, it will make government feel too impotent to pull another number on its people. I'd love to see American people stand up for themselves and get out of this constant fawning to authority.

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Landru's avatar

Chile is so beautiful filled with beautiful people as well. The problem in Chile is the same as with most nations now, equality in standard of living. Chile could change it's position in the world by using value added to the resources they have however they don't. I have had many a dinner debate with friends and they don't understand why they ship all their resources out of country with creating finished goods. If you ever get a chance to visit La Serena do. If I am working there ring me and I will give you a tour of the telescopes on Tololo : )

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Rebel Nun's avatar

I have friends who have moved to Chile and love it. You must have a great sky to watch!

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JennyStokes's avatar

IF I was a young person in the US I would not stay.What life are they going to have?

I think you Chang are as old as me.

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gypsy33's avatar

Hi Jenny

I have a truly brilliant 15year old grandson who is teaching himself the Chinese language. He intends to go into electrical engineering and I DO hope that he ends up residing in China.

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JennyStokes's avatar

Wonderful to hear Gypsy.......seems my Grandkids are staying stuck in England!

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Michael's avatar

The best chance is to educate young people and help them believe we can do better than this. The problem is we’re losing that war too

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Staying isn't going to solve anything either.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

Could you identify a few successful revolutions? Not the ones whose vanguards got power, but the ones whose vanguards *also* then served their constituencies.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

The framing of your question is too limiting (i.e. vanguards then served their constituencies).

Has ANY government (regardless of system) served their constituencies adequately in human history? Expecting perfect solutions often leaves one with no solutions.

Here is a partial list ->

(1) Cuban Revolution (July 1953)

(2) American Revolution (1764 - 1784)

(3) The Chinese Revolution (1911)

(4) Haitian Revolution (1791 - 1804)

(5) Taiping Rebellion (1850 - 1864)

(6) The Young Turk Revolution (1908)

You can do a search on the web for the details and particulars of exactly HOW these revolutions and rebellions changed/improved the 'material reality' of ordinary people (from their previous conditions) and made a huge impact not only for them but including knock-on effects felt in many other regions of the world because of these uprisings.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

you really shouldnt be advising people to do web searches until you learn how to conduct them yourself, or at least trace the origins of your own sources.

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tre peperoncini's avatar

What so wrong about advising someone to do their own research? If you don`t agree with any references provided, fair enough , provide your alternates if you s wish

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

You've already made a fool of yourself with me before (with your reddit comment). If you continue trolling me, I am apt to block you (especially since you seem to have a pattern of making unhinged comments with not much value in them (IMO)) - and feel free to block me if you wish.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"Has ANY government (regardless of system) served their constituencies adequately in human history?"

No. Because the problem is intelligent psychopathy/sociopathy, and we have yet no way of adequately recognizing it, much less handling it -- and it occurs in equal measure no matter what the system. Therefore, IMHO, spending time and effort urging socialism over capitalism (*each* of which is based, in theory, on serving legitimate human needs) is, unfortunately, a waste of time. That much we should have learned in the last few hundred years of revolutions.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

>>"Therefore, IMHO, spending time and effort urging socialism over capitalism..."

I'm not suggesting any such thing (i.e. that it should be socialism that should replace capitalism or whatever).

I'm stating something that should be obvious to EVERYONE on this planet -> that our present systems ARE NOT WORKING! Capitalism is not working (and never really worked except for a minority of people and for select brief periods of history in different regions under specific conditions).

Change is needed! No one really knows (unless they can see into the future) what form/shape that change will come in and what hybrid (or combination) of complex systems will supercede Capitalism.

What I do know is that CAPITALISM MUST DIE!!! (if not for humanity, then at least for the planet and all the other species on it).

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denise ward's avatar

Revolutions are such a waste of life, bloodbaths for dummies. We can tackle this even at this level of graveness, without anything we ever did in the past. We'll surprise them because they are not creative, we can be a few steps ahead of them. But many keep looking in the rear view mirror and so we can't progress that way. We need to brainstorm.

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The Revolution Continues's avatar

Not all of us have the financial means or health to move out so easily. (Many countries won't accept people over a certain age or in poor health, which leaves me stuck here. I guess I'll just have to be brave and fight for justice and freedom from within on my death bed here.)

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gypsy33's avatar

Hi TRC

I admit that if I could obtain an Irish passport, I’d be gone like a freight train.

But since that is unlikely, I too will stay and fight.

I want my old country back: the days of JFK. It wasn’t perfect but it was perfect compared to the dumpster fire burning presently in DC.

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denise ward's avatar

No that's not how to fix things. It will comes to all those places too. Running away is actually abandoning the ship when its in turbulent waters.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Countries are completely imaginary. Nothing requires me to put my trust into this institution or do anything whatsoever to maintain it.

By being in a foreign country I strengthen the place and deny my dollars to the USA.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

Taiwan is a fake country, Japan is imperialist and Spain commits an annual genocide of galgo and podenco greyhounds. China is good. They have never oppressed, enslaved or massacred anyone

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pete king's avatar

Tienamin square?

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Patrick Powers's avatar

? How about the 1953 invasion of Tibet? How about the oppression of the Uighur's, which I have witnessed first hand. All Uighur renters were required to vacate the capital city of Urumqi.

The history of China is full of huge horrible wars, they just happened a long time ago.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

all bullshit lies and CIA propaganda you fell for bc you're a gullible shill for the feds and a manipulative liar. And you absolutely have not witnessed the oppression the Uyghurs, your ignorant brainwashed ass cant even SPELL Uyghurs. You obviously cant read but if you could this would make you irrationally upset. https://millennialchaos.substack.com/p/adrian-zenz-a-pseudo-expert-on-xinjiangs

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tre peperoncini's avatar

Is it all so simple , just compartmentalize human behavior by nationality ? my knowledge of China`s history is shameful ,but we can all agree its a pretty old civilization, Can`t be hard to imagine that some of its rulers had a bad sides? When you have 20% to 30% of the world population its not hard to imagine that the Emperors were too busy managing their own internal affairs , especially if there was no need to wage war to get what you wanted, because you have something to trade,

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

Nothing is ever simple, when people describe a concept as such they are explaining their limited understanding of said concept. With that being said im not talking about nationality here. Surely no ruler has been perfect, if there’s something I’m missing about China feel free to let me know. As far as I’m concerned they’ve done a lot of good for the world and their own people

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

>>"China is good. They have never oppressed, enslaved or massacred anyone"

Huh???

Have you heard of Tibet, Mongolia, the Uyghurs or have ANY knowledge of Chinese history? Do a search on 'Chinese oppression' on the web and you will get more information than you asked for.

Examples:

(1) How the 1959 Lhasa Massacre Became a Turning Point in Tibet’s Struggle for Freedom and Ignited Tibetan Nationalism (https://www.republicworld.com/defence/global-defence-news/how-the-1959-lhasa-massacre-became-a-turning-point-in-tibets-struggle-for-freedom-and-ignited-tibetan-nationalism)

(2) https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/chinese-repression-of-tibetans-and-uyghurs-switzerland-must-take-action-now/88966754

(3) https://newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2016/02/04/chinas-oppression-of-tibetans-has-dramatically-increased

Many more...

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

All of your sources are CIA or western propaganda

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

Sure, ANY facts that go against your "bias/opinions" are propaganda or CIA misinformation.

Critical thinking much? Did you even read any of the links? No, of course not - since you know EVERYTHING and everything you think you know is right.

What a joke! Get outta here!

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Give up. I have never gotten anywhere with people like this.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

I think you might be projecting a bit there. I don't know everything- far from it!! I learn new information all the time. But I see you in the comments acting as if your propaganda must be regarded as absolute truth. Do you shill for the feds?

New Internationalist was founded by imperialist Christian missionaries. So there goes that source.

Republic TV (republicworld.com) is a right-wing website that regularly publishes islamophobic misinformation and its founder has a long history of sinophobic bullshit, even going as far as hosting an anti-chinese debate show.

On the swiss article you referenced, the coward journalist behind the lies didn't even have the balls to post his name. Nevermind that though. The chairman, Jean-Michel Cina is a prominent figurehead of the Christian democratic parliamentary group.

China's achievements speak for themselves: It has lifted 800 million people out of poverty, contributed about 30 percent of global growth for more than a decade and continues to lead the world in innovation.

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

Lots of interesting arguments pro and con in this thread, but I haven't really seen the bare-bones pragmatic reason not to move. When one is quite old, say approaching 80, somewhat physically disabled, family all gone, living in an urban community with at least a small reliable network of friends and resources, relocation both sounds like -- and realistically is -- a gigantically tall order. That situation renders the disgust for one's country even more acidic, more rancidly distasteful because one knows that one is physically trapped -- and can only fight the power from the inside with the meager resources available. Anxiety and frustration are one's constant companions.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

That is not a viable option for most Americans because we simply cannot afford it. No, the establishment is stuck with me holding up the First Amendment like a middle finger.

My ancestors survived everything this continent could throw at them, including bad governments. So will I. Just don't expect us to always take your advice, expat, for you are not here and do not fully understand what is going on.

That's not intended as an insult. I've said the same thing to CJ Hopkins, who lives in Germany and sometimes clearly doesn't understand WTF is going on here.

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SusannaP's avatar

Patrick Powers. Agree. I moved out of UK. I'm too old to make a difference, frankly.

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tre peperoncini's avatar

Such is the pinnacle of privilege, the selfish ingrates who have profited from the exploits of an empire yet, for whatever reason, feel shame for its latest crimes against the world. I cannot put into words my disdain for you and your kind. By all means, explore; be part of the world. But if you are an American citizen, your obligation is to make your country better, not to flee with the spoils you’ve obtained in ignorance of your empires past crimes. If now the weight of your empire’s sins bother you, you Citizens of the empire , more than others have an obligation to speak up participate in marches, protests because us non-citizens have no such right, in fact they rounding us up right now!

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Patrick Powers's avatar

"But if you are an American citizen, your obligation is to make your country better,"

So they say. Why should I believe this?

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Klonda56's avatar

The country only has subjects not citizens.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

I agree with your reasoning tre peperoncini - there can sometimes be an unsaid moral obligation that befalls people in the West that have knowingly or not benefited directly or indirectly from the expansion of U.S. imperialist hegemony, but to different degrees.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"The USA, and the rest of the western world, is becoming increasingly censorious. Why do we want to live in this part of the world?"

In the USA, at least, the First Amendment is the last bulwark standing.

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Feral Finster's avatar

Law is meaningless. Enforcement is the only thing that matters.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

Law has meaning as the ostensible and the (ordinarily) default "right" way to do things, and for that reason it has value psychologically. It's not as if we're talking about the laws and actions of Jim Crow here -- instead of unjust law, we have poorly understood law. Evangelism will improve our situation, not degrade it.

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Feral Finster's avatar

Those who rule over us could not care less. Policy is what matters, as Policy determines when the law is applied and to whom.

Did not Carl Schmitt famously teach us that the sovereign is he who decides the exception?

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"Those who rule over us could not care less."

Agreed. It is the vast majority of the *public* who cares about law as I described it. We have to enlist from them those who care enough not to be NPC, and that's how we begin to hold their feet to the fire. I'm not content to just watch this whole mess fall off a cliff, suffering without even a fight.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

No it isn't. It was over when 27 states declared all people who want money from said state must sign away their free speech right. They were coerced to "agree" to never speak out in favor of a boycott on Israel.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

I don't mean to say it is currently succeeding. I mean that the law and its history are quite clearly in defense of speech, apparently more than anywhere else on earth.

We are certainly going through difficult times. If free speech is going to be defended for the world, it will most likely happen in the U.S. For that reason, pro-speech U.S. citizens should *not* leave while this (hybrid) war continues, and instead find ways of opposing the attack.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

I don't see how it makes any difference where my body is ensconced when it comes to free speech. By being in a foreign country I deny my dollars to the USA, which is all they care about. Did you know the USA controls the flow of dollars out of the country? They don't like that.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"I don't see how it makes any difference where my body is ensconced when it comes to free speech."

It's a lot easier to effect change when one is onsite. Otherwise, sure, you can vent on Substack from anywhere. Is it that you have lost all hope?

"Did you know the USA controls the flow of dollars out of the country? They don't like that."

My own strategy is to live in poverty, have few dependencies, and learn it well. Lack of dollars helps starve the beast that way, too. And I am (almost) at peace with the fact that, odds are, I will be squashed like a bug someday.

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MakeTheWorldSafeForDiversity's avatar

I remember reading P.D. Scott after 11-9 writing that because of the patriot act that there wouldn't be allowed any more antiwar movements in the usa. Everything the government has done from continuity of government to the patriot act to extraordinary rendition to torture to ndaas to the droning of us citizens to today was predictable in the 10 years after 11-9. There is a direct line from JFK to 11-9 to Gaza.

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Nana Baakan Agyiriwah's avatar

Exactly, it's the slow tip-toe into totalitarianism. But to be honest, this country actually started this way. It was able to cloak it as a testament to independence for all, but by the fact it left out the enslaved Africans and women and the indigenous, shows there was no real inclusivity when crafting the Constitution. Land and slave owners and some say a few Freemasons were the framers. Over time, little by little. it's become clear. We don't have freedom of speech, we have a selective authorization to speak. https://topicsfromatoz.substack.com/p/we-dont-have-free-speech-in-the-usa?r=beq0e

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Feral Finster's avatar

The sociopaths who run things are unimpressed by our cleverness, our word games, our cute memes, our tightly reasoned arguments and close readings of texts, unmoved by facts, logic, evidence or morality, as long as they have force on their side, as long as the cops and army will shoot when ordered to do so.

It's like trying to reason with a schoolyard bully. Truly, this never grows old:

"A WOLF, meeting with a lamb astray from the fold, resolved not to lay violent hands on him, but to find some plea, which should justify to the lamb himself, his right to eat him.

He then addressed him: Sirrah, last year you grossly insulted me.

Indeed, bleated the lamb in a mournful tone of voice: I was not then born.

Then said the wolf: You feed in my pasture.

No, good sir, replied the lamb: I have not yet tasted grass.

Again said the wolf: You drink of my well.

No, exclaimed the lamb: I never yet drank water, for as yet my mother's milk is both food and drink to me.

Upon which the wolf seized him and ate him up, saying: Well! I won't remain supper-less, even though you refute every one of my imputations.

Moral: The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny, and it is useless for the innocent to try by reasoning to get justice, when the oppressor intends to be unjust."

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"it is useless for the innocent to try by reasoning to get justice, when the oppressor intends to be unjust"

Exactly. And *that* is the problem to be solved.

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Rebel Nun's avatar

That’s magnificent. Aesop?

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John Mann's avatar

Yup.

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Marquis's avatar

This is standard US policy position...both parties agree with limiting free speech, Trump just said the quiet part out loud. That's the purpose of propaganda as well...It is easier to get policy a cross when you silent decent. I suppose it doesn't matter what we think, the governments wants to think for us. I guess I am just saying your article about "If you think that your voice doesn't matter, they wouldn't put so much effort into silencing it." It was a piece about manufacturing consent...or about Chomsky saying that you gain more control by limiting the scope of debate while creating a lively debate within that spectrum(loosely paraphrased). I am just saying this all fits together with the objectives of the empire managers and the military industrial complex. It is not about limiting free speech, that's the first step...the objective is to control thought, because when you control that, you control both actions and words... Caitlyn is correct, they want to do the thinking for you, decide for you...

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denise ward's avatar

They are control freaks on steroids. But the vast majority of people accept being controlled alas.

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Feral Finster's avatar

Humans are herd animals to rival any sheep.

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JennyStokes's avatar

I think a lot of people know they are being controlled.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

👍 Interesting analysis. Well said!

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

My alma mater, Columbia, has lost the right to call itself a center of learning and any faculty who does not dissociate his or herself from the administration and its filthy donors is complicit in censorship and war crimes. I'll say it once again on this thread as we sung in '68: Alma Mater is a F*kin' whore.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

Think you've got rights? Think again.

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Literally Mussolini's avatar

By the logic of those seeking to deport these foreign students for their speech, the US authorities need to get to work blocking access to Caitlin's Substack in the US. She is antisemitic and supports terrorist organizations, and as an Australian, she has no speech rights in the US.

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Gladwyn d'Souza's avatar

The whole reason you can have a focus on antisemitism related to Jewish student’s feelings is because real violence by the police, prosecutor, and Christian fascists against black and brown communities is censored in the US of Apartheid.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

🎯👏 Well said!

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Carolyn's avatar

I honestly don't understand the US protection of Israel? Is it blackmail or money or Solomons Option?? What the heck is it?

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Rebel Nun's avatar

“Israel” was created as a military outpost in the Middle East to protect and expand the financial interests of the Western powers, especially in petroleum. They were so racist and arrogant, they thought it would be easy to dominate the Arab (and probably the Persian and Turkish) world. WWII drained the power of the UK and France, and the US became the Siamese twin of Israel, holding on to military dominance through a sick co-dependence. The two governments are not really separate. It was never about saving Jewish refugees.

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Nana Baakan Agyiriwah's avatar

I think you have a point here, at least I can say, that I agree. I just posted a substack on the "twin" thing or both are sides of the same bird.

Who's In Charge, Israel or the USA? Or Is It Just Two Wings of the Same Dragon, Let's Discuss This

https://open.substack.com/pub/topicsfromatoz/p/whos-in-charge-israel-or-the-usa

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

None of the above - it is Capitalism (at its core) - the pursuit of profits BY ANY MEANS necessary (including colonization and genocide). Once people obtain a deeper understanding of Capitalism (including in various forms) and the cause-effect relationships and consequences of this 'system', many things about 'how the world really works' and 'how power really works' becomes clear.

That is why the PROPAGANDA against all alternatives to capitalism is so relentless and fierce (including stuff in US history like the 'red scare' (2 of them) and McCarthyism).

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Anti-Hip's avatar

If not capitalism, you'll have to have some other way to satisfy humans' desire to personally control objects. Otherwise, you're fighting human nature.

The real perennial problem in societies is the lack of containment of intelligent psychopathy. Because we have no handle on it, it pervades and destroys *every* political system, certainly including both capitalism and socialism. In both those cases, proponents are in denial about the eventual corruption and destruction of society from psychopaths who game the system, i.e. the downside of the iron law of oligarchy. In the absence of such antisocial attitudes toward power, it is well-arguable *either* capitalism or socialism could work.

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denise ward's avatar

Politics doesn't apply anymore, not since the digital age. Also neither does privacy. These things are redundant now. Actually without privacy, psychopaths will not be able to thrive. But we all need to see the surveillance, not just a select group. No, it all needs to go public, all of it, so we can see what they do too and they're not just the ones to see. Free speech means all speech but governments are always for censorship. So we cannot progress this way.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

>>"If not capitalism, you'll have to have some other way to satisfy humans' desire to personally control objects."

Yes, but isn't that obvious (i.e. to be taken for granted)?

Does a system have to fit 'perfect' definitions like 'capitalism, socialism, communism, anarchism, feudalism, mercantilism, etc.'?

Why not a hybrid, dynamic system that is always changing (as the world is always changing)? Why not resource-based economies? (Check out Peter Joseph for more on that).

Any system that replaces Capitalism (and I believe it will be replaced sooner or later), will have to be non-rigid/flexible, constantly adaptable/changing, and many more characteristics to make it a successful system.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"Why not a hybrid, dynamic system that is always changing"

Agreed. That is why, IMO -- and as already actually happens in "good" democracies -- Left and Right do, and should, wax and wane over time; and individuals do, and should, align with either depending on their individual judgments of the time and circumstances. The main problem, perpetually, messing things up is sociopaths and their wanna-be's.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

Change happens in different ways. Usually, when things get really bad (famines, starvation, disease, major disastors of ANY kind, etc.) there will be an uprising against the dominant class in power (regardless of system - capitalism, socialism, communism, whatever).

Your comment suggests people ALWAYS have a choice. Events and circumstances often have a life of their own and unfold in unpredictable ways. Hence your theory of "wax and wane over time" is a simplistic/reductive argument of "how things should evolve".

>>"The main problem, perpetually, messing things up is sociopaths and their wanna-be's."

No, the main problem is class-warfare, inequality, hoarding of resources, destruction of the planet, exploitation of people all over the world, and so much more.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

Capitalism isn’t human nature and socialism does work, that’s why the US has never allowed it to fail on its own. It’s also why the DPRK is a secretive country now.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"Capitalism isn’t human nature"

Nonsense. Both capitalism and socialism continue to have advocates from the ranks of ordinary people. And no, the ordinary-people capitalists are no being "duped".

"the US has never allowed it to fail on its own"

The psychopaths who run the US (and most every other country) have no intention of letting it "fail" (i.e. government losing power). Just as every leader of any communist country has exactly the same intent and behavior.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

The obvious difference is that most socialist governments actually help their citizens which is why the US spends billions destabilizing them, bombing them to shit and replacing their leaders with corrupt fascists.

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Anti-Hip's avatar

"most socialist governments actually help their citizens"

I don't see much evidence at all that socialist countries are immune to psychopaths/sociopaths taking over. Much the opposite in fact, as the past hundred years of "communism" taught us.

If you're talking about late 20th-century Europe, that went far better, but also as mixed systems, not pure socialism. But now that same Europe is now descending into a mind-bending totalitarianism, and as always with frog-boiling, the material losses will come after the freedoms are lost, so (as with communism) there will be no recourse against the broken promises.

"the US spends billions destabilizing them, bombing them to shit and replacing their leaders with corrupt fascists."

Don't confuse the people and culture of the US with the monsters who, eventually, took over the country. As happens, eventually, with any and every country, no matter the political system,

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denise ward's avatar

All countries are in this sort of conspiracy of silence. They are really being used themselves for faceless others in the background pulling the strings. Some think it's aliens, some think it's the bloodlines. But the ones we see are like the actors selling the concept. The concept is to get all the people to give them a portion of everything they make. In return they'll get services and the air, water and soil will be managed properly. You'll get defended in case of invaders. But the invader here is within, Israel is the villain and the US is its bitch. But really, backstage, they're all just in this big production to get you to think that politics is like physics, you just have to have it, there is no other way, etc. Our culture has no principles other than making money. Oh it's dressed up to look appealing but really, it just makes whores out of all of us by using it. It makes the bankers unfathomably wealthy - all the interest goes to them. Try adding that up. Everywhere you look, houses, cars, all were loaned with interest. Interest accumulates and compounds. And all the bankers have to do to get that wealth is to make us believe that they are lending us money, while politicians make us believe they are the bastions of virtue.

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Joy in HK's avatar

Power, Profits, and Prophets. All three are at play here. They each feed off the others. The religions fanaticism in the west is legendary and runs throughout, and has been a justification for crusades of conquest, colonialism, genocide and slavery for centuries. Ignore any one at peril of an incomplete analysis, which can only benefit the perpetrators.

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Noah (he/him)'s avatar

Israel is a satellite colony of the US just like ROK whose military we control

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Patrick Powers's avatar

In the USA what Big Money wants Big Money gets.

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denise ward's avatar

Cailtin you hit it right between the eyeballs as you usually do. Talk about (s)words! Get 'em girl. You are absolutely right and the whole thing has a very bad stench to it. I'm so tired of these "born to rule" people, they seem to be everywhere. I guess that's why we see them on The Big Stage. “Obstructing our foreign policy goals” is a veiled way of saying "we're shutting you up" Government never admits it is wrong. They are censors, plain and simple, Israel especially, but if the US carries out Israel's interests, then who is carrying out ours? Trump sticks his nose so high up Netanyahu's rectum, it's amazing it hasn't turned brown yet.

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Vin LoPresti's avatar

It's also amazing that Bibi's rectum isn't multiply infected/inflamed with the nasal flora of the various US Presidents and secs of state who've had their noses there since he's been prime minister. Maybe that's why the man's so deranged.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

HaHa - thanks for the laughs Vin!

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serafino bueti's avatar

Right on, Vincenzo. It's a vile disease that oozes out of him. His whole face is twisted and distorted by the infestation. The camera does not lie.

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Robert H Stiver's avatar

"...do you want to decide such matters for yourself?" YES!! -- I want to decide such matters for myself! I'm a third-generation immigrant from Germany...first they came for Mahmoud Khalil; next will they come for me and deport me on behalf of Colonial Zionism and its vile, swine-filled platform in the 'holy' land...because I'm not sufficiently obeisant to "official" ZioUS lines of propaganda?

Viva Palestine! (And Viva Yemen!...I'm not keeping up adequately on the fate of poor, heroic Yemen....)

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

CJ>>"Do you really want your government deciding what kind of political speech you are allowed to hear, and protecting your fragile little mind from wrongthink? Or do you want to decide such matters for yourself?"

🎯 This is what all Americans (blue MAGA, red MAGA, whatever) need to understand! When Trump cancels and censors "Free Speech", it will affect EVERYONE (maybe not immediately, but once a precedent has been set, all bets are off for the future - regardless of your ideologies).

This is the beginning steps of a state heading towards fascist, authoritarian totalitarianism!

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Patrick Powers's avatar

So diligent our wise leaders to protect us from being led astray by wrongthink.

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denise ward's avatar

Yes, you are absolutely right.

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SW's avatar

The Trump regime is making it clear they don’t want anyone to have the right to think for themselves or to hear other’s thoughts on the subject of Israel. The permanent, legal residents slated to be exiled were chosen for the very reason they are law abiding. Miriam wants to send a clear message how ruthless the purge will be and the law won’t protect even those operating within the bounds of the Constitution.

It wouldn’t surprise me if a law criticizing Israel or using the accurate term Zionist wasn’t designated a hate crime. Trump is out of control (or under control).

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serafino bueti's avatar

''Hate crimes'' legalese BS was created for this moment, the moment when the people started to awaken to the hideous nature of the Israeli beast. A good rule of thumb....when you hear the word ''antisemitism,'' substitute it with ''truth'' and see where it brings you. E.G.-- ''we must stamp out the rise in antisemitism.'' That's what all the censorship is really about...stomping on the truth.

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Susan T's avatar

It's too bad we couldn't deport people who spread hate and create division. I am not sure where we could deport Trump and his cohorts to, but it would be nice to be able to send them somewhere that they would not be harming people. And it would be really great to obstruct THEIR "foreign policy goals", I think.

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Rebel Nun's avatar

Anywhere, as long as it’s on a SpaceX rocket.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

🤣👍👌

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Rebel Nun's avatar

I have faith. Musk’s technology won’t let us down.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

I like your sense of humor!

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denise ward's avatar

I think that kind of blind faith is dangerous. Nuns have always been a bit "iffy" to me.

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Chang Chokaski's avatar

We could deport Trump (and the likes of him) to HELL, but I'm guessing Satan would spit them right back out (too EVIL for even Satan to accept).

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Indu Abeysekara's avatar

Susan T, Perhaps we could deport Trump with Elon Musk and the billionaire class to Mars in one of Musk's rockets.... and perhaps it will explode in space!.

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The Revolution Continues's avatar

Shh! You're not supposed to let the Muskrateers know they're not safe on those rockets! Keep up the "good work" Space X rocket builders! (And all those who forgot to use the "good glue" on the Tesla cyber trucks.)

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denise ward's avatar

I hate to tell you this but I would appreciate if you gave it some consideration. The way you feel about these characters is actually amplifying the same energy that they are there to incite. It's called "loosh" and it feeds this dark energy because it goes against our own fellows. Yes even the Muskrateers are people! (to allude to the movie "Elephant Man", his cries at the finale)

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Rebel Nun's avatar

You’re totally right. It’s hard not to go there.

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The Revolution Continues's avatar

"US citizens’ right to hear criticism of their government’s foreign policy."

We all should know what others are saying about our government and its foreign policy. How else are we to get a well-rounded picture of reality? If you only listen to one-side of any argument, that's all you have--a flat, one-sided picture. Trump's regime is just extra scared that we're all listening to a wide variety of criticisms of his foreign policy, and we're going to come up with the idea that he's a fascistic narcissist that is leading the West into more wars for resource grabs. I wonder how we could have ever come up with that idea... Yeah, it all is because of student protesters, especially non-citizen protesters. SHEESH! Get over yourself Trump!

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Patricia Blair's avatar

I keep a copy of the U.S. Constitution with me. Why not?An ancestor signed it, no doubt with integrity which Trump lacks as well as his assembled crew. The First Amendment is vital as is IV, IX,, XIV, People are protesting as is their right.

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Rebel Nun's avatar

I keep some of these copies in my car and pass them out to counter-protesters, questioners, media interviewers, students, etc. I passed them out to delegates entering the DNC one year. Some of the least interested I ever met. Stock up:

https://shop.aclu.org/product/ACLU-Pocket-Constitution-of-the-United-States

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denise ward's avatar

I can't understand why women tout this document and the bible since they were written only by men. And we can see it was all about the things men find interesting. It's totally one-sided. I don't want to go by these documents and I think they have not served us well at all. They treat property as though it is the all. The bible is so mixed up no wonder it hasn't helped humanity in 2K years. Come on, we can do better than I do want to say "this tripe" but I fully respect anyone's wish if they want to believe in baloney.

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Rebel Nun's avatar

The Constitution is the anti-Bible. Freedom of Religion, of Speech, of the Press, of Association. A way to govern ourselves, along with a way to improve on its imperfections. Its most damaging imperfection, in my view, is its acceptance and protection of capitalism; that’s what we need to be moving beyond. But there’s stuff we need to keep, or maybe enforce for the first time.

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Patrick Powers's avatar

How many divisions has the Constitution got?

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tre peperoncini's avatar

"Americans who are not fully brainwashed into the cult of Trumpism should be asking themselves if this is the kind of country they want to live in?" .... Well are they same who were not fully brainwashed with Biden`s Disinformation Governance Board? You know, the administration made it illegal for RT to operate in the US, hire or subcontract Americans even if the RT program was not even broadcast in American ?

There's nothing new in the street

Doesn`t looks any different to me

the slogans are replaced,

the parting on the left

Is now the parting on the right

-

Yeah!

Meet the new boss

Same as the old boss

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Patrick Powers's avatar

I was pretty sure the GOP wouldn't restore free speech. The would restore pro-GOP speech, that's all. And so it is.

You wouldn't believe how eager Youtube is to push GOP-flavored news in my face. Began right after the inauguration.

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tre peperoncini's avatar

When your government keep secrets from you its not your government. Snowden and Assuage exposed the erosion of rights and laws, but we were too preoccupied with the fear of Terrorists and the Kardashians that we never asked why. When your ideology is based on being exceptional !

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Chuck Nasmith's avatar

Off to listen to D. Bowie's "I'm Afraid of Americans".

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