Yet my daughter for years told me I was the best until I would no longer be her personal Bank. I have no interest in my son who has always been so aggressive and drunk that I grew to be afraid of him.
I love my 2 grandkids who we do see.........not often enough because they are in another country.
But I also believe that there are people to whom one will owe more to than others, specifically those who raised you, and there is definitely more onus on parents/children to forgive and reconcile with each other wherever possible, when malice/abuse is not part of the picture
I think the keyword here is "entitlement". We're human - so we're going to make mistakes, and there are going to be complex psychological dynamics taking place in almost any family (or relationship). But no one should think they are entitled to treat someone badly - which by the way, seems to be the rule these days (not the exception) with corporations and their employees, and politicians and their constituents.
Caitlin, for the first and only time I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Parental ghosting by grown children stands at around 25% in the US. One in four. Let that sink in for a sec. Now that is waaay too much even assuming the not that great (putting it mildly) average US parental standards. Plus it started happening to nearly everyone, including countries very far from the US and with disparate cultures (including my own.) Now I could guess at the exact reason but that would be a mere nonsense Hail Mary guess - it is, however, very much correlated with the popularity of social media. There is also an entire cottage industry of quack "psychotherapists" whose methods are basically grooming by separation from closest people, as in one's parents. Kids there are literally being taught that all the cool people ghost their parents, and they are boring otherwise. They are also taught that if they feel bad or depressed, this is all their parents' and especially fathers' fault, but there is no use talking to parents about it because they are incorrigible and will only make the kids feel bad if they do talk. That, I believe, is a deliberately and cynically envisioned and created Catch-22 siruation. Actually, chances are it is even more insiduous than that - people self-isolated from their closest kin are far easier to manipulate for whichever nefarious scamling or other purposes the powers behind the tech need.
Take it from someone who overwhelmingly did gentle parenting, adored his daughters and was adored by them in turn - with a LOT of friction, of course, but that is also part and parcel of it - only to get sequentially ghosted by them in the most brutal manner imaginable, as soon as they hit late teens. And I yried tje hentle approzch numeroud times since, only to get brutally shut down each and every time. And I have no illusions I am the only such case. There are untold numbers of us. And for each parent who actually deserved to be and stay ghosted, there are hundreds who did not and are yet left with festering emotional wounds that can never heal. Please understand that I know you would never knowingly do something like that, but the suggestion that all would be peachy if the parents were only warmer and gentler with their kids does, however inadvertently (for I know you are a good person, Caitlin!), amount to victim-blaming out of well-intended naïvete.
If you need an example of such a "therapist" scam artist to ascertain yourself whether I was telling the truth above, do google one Sharon Martin. Be sure to look for parallel sites: she has separate sites to angle for the pop psych set and the ayahuasca set, and probably more. She is but one of a very large category there, alas.
Good comment Ante. I don't think the "ghosting" situation is all that new. Parents continue to work their *jobs* and maintain peer relationships. There is usually no real behavioral change after children have left the nest. That said:
Departing offspring are faced with all new challenges of adulthood. Finding viable relationship. Joining in or initiating career. Purchasing a home or finding same... None of it is easy, and most children were not apprised that all this shit would hit the fan.
I think the article inflates a pretty flat tire. Jus' sayin'
I don't think children who leave the nest, and stop talking much with their parents has ever been that uncommon a phenomena - at least here in the West. When I was growing up, it happened too - but the term 'ghosting' was not in the english lexicon then. But parents often did complain they rarely heard from their kids, and the visits became more infrequent over time.
It does seem however, to be a more "Western" phenomena than in other countries where staying close to family, and even multiple generations living together is the social norm - often because of financial constraints. Though it is becoming more and more like that in the US as wealth inequality along with poverty has grown. What used to be normally affordable: house, car, education and even groceries - now is becoming a major financial burden on Americans. More American children are continuing to live with their parents than ever before.
I reject this perspective as misguided. Many parents are horrible, many are not. Many adult children are horrible; many are not. Blaming aging parents for their adult children shutting them out is a substitute for understanding and compassion and ways to reconcile.
I don't think Caitlin's perspective is totally misguided, but she is leaving out quite a lot. My mother was violent and horrible. I hated her until I went into therapy where I was encouraged to try to understand how she got to where she was. She grew up poor in England. Then the second war came along when she was 15. Life messed her up. I could never convince her to go to therapy herself, but I am glad I did. It stopped me from hating her.
After my son was born, I looked at all the people on the streets who were drunk, drug addicted, messed up and not really "nice" and kept thinking that once, they too were perfect little beings just like my son. Life can be shitty sometimes.
That is all the more reason not to be judgmental but to seek understand an compassion. Horrible parents probably had horrible parents: judging only continues the cycle whereas we need a perspective of healing to end it.
Or, your children may be unkind and without mercy and truth. It's about the breakdown of the country. Or, your children may be spoiled rotten and have lost decency and respect and understanding for people - including parents - that have lost their way.
I'm not sure it matters. I've bent over backwards to help and raise my children. and gave up my life so they had a stable home, and they still give me the silent treatment, or worse. On the other hand, their mom was and still is, a piece of crap (she actually abandoned them for extended periods of time), and she gets gold star treatment.
“I have heard it said that the way our adult children treat us is our performance review for our job as parents.” is exactly correct.
Once a child is an adult and no longer dependent on their parents/guardian, they’re free to make their own decisions and choices. If a parent/guardian has nurtured, nourished and protected the child while demonstrating love, devotion and appropriate response to the developing child’s talents and needs, chances are that same adult child will reciprocate. If not, well, ‘you reap what you sow’. For what it’s worth, that’s my take as a parent and grandparent.
I’m so grateful for this nearly daily injection of clarity and rational analysis by Johnstone. It’s my lifeline and often a wake up call.
As a former child, now adult who did exactly what you describe here, I can attest to the shitty behavior not being tolerated when kids reach adulthood. I have been always at odds with my mom and dad, both victims of dysfunctional upbringing which they generously passed on to us. Every time I heard people saying "you only have them", I was in a mental state of flipping the table. Because if that is the incentive to stay connected and be emotionally abused in the most laissez faire manner, thanks but no thanks. I try hard with my own kids and while they are at the age where I am their world, I know the day will come when they will become their own person and I will have to make sure I don't fudge it up. Nothing is for granted folks.
Your divorce comparison is the right one, and it cuts both ways. My mother lived under the old rule and stayed married to my father. I lived under it too, and in 1998, in my thirties, I broke it and cut him off.
There was no social media and no therapist pointing me toward the exit.
There was my father, who let himself into my apartment with my emergency keys and waited in the dark to tell me, a grown woman with a career, that I was a bad girl, scaring me half to death. There was a call to my office, passed to me in a meeting by my assistant, saying Dad was on the phone and my mother had had a stroke. She hadn't.
Those are two episodes out of thousands, big and small, over three decades.
The WSJ piece opens with parents in a Chicago conference hall asking why. My father never asked. My mother told me he felt I'd treated him unfairly and been ungrateful. She said he died heartbroken.
One thing I want to callout is that our relationships have all taken a toll since we were locked down and separated so things have become much worse between parent and child, even siblings and old friends.
We’re going to need to restore the community that society has destroyed:
Thank you so much for this important article. I come from a family of narcissistic (cult-like) parents, one in which I was the scapegoat. It takes a lifetime to heal from narcissistic abuse, and healing is impossible without going no contact with your abusers. Yes, they've had difficult lives, but eventually people need to grow up and learn to take responsibility for their behavior.
Interestingly, people rarely criticize those who leave abusive cults.
I couldn't even begin to heal or thrive until after the death of my parents, although I largely minimized contact with them during their lifetimes. I also had to go no contact with my narcissistic sister, who was the so-called golden child. Attacking adult children for going no contact with their parents, siblings, and/or other abusive relatives is merely to perpetuate the abuse.
When my mother emotionally abused me by labelling me with a psychiatric label (she had NO psychiatric training whatsoever, and it was something two psychiatrists said they saw no symptoms of in me), by allowing my three elder siblings to bully me and defending their attitude instead of me, by getting explosively angry with me over trivial faults, among other things, I'd say that Caitlin is dead right here about our right to cut ourselves off from abusive parents.
It is my opinion that keeping the family structure intact is of historical, empirical importance. It is also my opinion that breaking generational trauma is of historical, empirical importance. Unfortunately, in order for the latter to become, the first has to take precedence when necessary.
I wish I didn’t have to cut contact with my dad. However sadly, I picked up a myriad of unhealthy, problematic relationship patterns, and without therapy, I would have been too close to see them. There’s a very high chance I would have continued the cycle. To further elaborate: I would not feel safe having my children around him, as I do not feel safe with him, as he did not feel safe with his father.
When there is compromise, accountability, and compassion available I think both parties need to utilize it, but if it’s not- then it’s not; expecting either party to “deal with it” isn’t fair just like in any other relationship.
All parents should thank their lucky stars that their kids give them the time of day, as all parents by definition have committed the mortal sin of dragging their innocent spirit-children into the temporal hell-world of flesh and bone. The greatest crime of all - procreation.
According to this I wasn't a good Mum!
Yet my daughter for years told me I was the best until I would no longer be her personal Bank. I have no interest in my son who has always been so aggressive and drunk that I grew to be afraid of him.
I love my 2 grandkids who we do see.........not often enough because they are in another country.
This works both ways.
"There isn't a single person on this planet who is entitled to treat you badly. Remember that."
I agree with this.
But I also believe that there are people to whom one will owe more to than others, specifically those who raised you, and there is definitely more onus on parents/children to forgive and reconcile with each other wherever possible, when malice/abuse is not part of the picture
I think the keyword here is "entitlement". We're human - so we're going to make mistakes, and there are going to be complex psychological dynamics taking place in almost any family (or relationship). But no one should think they are entitled to treat someone badly - which by the way, seems to be the rule these days (not the exception) with corporations and their employees, and politicians and their constituents.
Caitlin, for the first and only time I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Parental ghosting by grown children stands at around 25% in the US. One in four. Let that sink in for a sec. Now that is waaay too much even assuming the not that great (putting it mildly) average US parental standards. Plus it started happening to nearly everyone, including countries very far from the US and with disparate cultures (including my own.) Now I could guess at the exact reason but that would be a mere nonsense Hail Mary guess - it is, however, very much correlated with the popularity of social media. There is also an entire cottage industry of quack "psychotherapists" whose methods are basically grooming by separation from closest people, as in one's parents. Kids there are literally being taught that all the cool people ghost their parents, and they are boring otherwise. They are also taught that if they feel bad or depressed, this is all their parents' and especially fathers' fault, but there is no use talking to parents about it because they are incorrigible and will only make the kids feel bad if they do talk. That, I believe, is a deliberately and cynically envisioned and created Catch-22 siruation. Actually, chances are it is even more insiduous than that - people self-isolated from their closest kin are far easier to manipulate for whichever nefarious scamling or other purposes the powers behind the tech need.
Take it from someone who overwhelmingly did gentle parenting, adored his daughters and was adored by them in turn - with a LOT of friction, of course, but that is also part and parcel of it - only to get sequentially ghosted by them in the most brutal manner imaginable, as soon as they hit late teens. And I yried tje hentle approzch numeroud times since, only to get brutally shut down each and every time. And I have no illusions I am the only such case. There are untold numbers of us. And for each parent who actually deserved to be and stay ghosted, there are hundreds who did not and are yet left with festering emotional wounds that can never heal. Please understand that I know you would never knowingly do something like that, but the suggestion that all would be peachy if the parents were only warmer and gentler with their kids does, however inadvertently (for I know you are a good person, Caitlin!), amount to victim-blaming out of well-intended naïvete.
If you need an example of such a "therapist" scam artist to ascertain yourself whether I was telling the truth above, do google one Sharon Martin. Be sure to look for parallel sites: she has separate sites to angle for the pop psych set and the ayahuasca set, and probably more. She is but one of a very large category there, alas.
Good comment Ante. I don't think the "ghosting" situation is all that new. Parents continue to work their *jobs* and maintain peer relationships. There is usually no real behavioral change after children have left the nest. That said:
Departing offspring are faced with all new challenges of adulthood. Finding viable relationship. Joining in or initiating career. Purchasing a home or finding same... None of it is easy, and most children were not apprised that all this shit would hit the fan.
I think the article inflates a pretty flat tire. Jus' sayin'
I don't think children who leave the nest, and stop talking much with their parents has ever been that uncommon a phenomena - at least here in the West. When I was growing up, it happened too - but the term 'ghosting' was not in the english lexicon then. But parents often did complain they rarely heard from their kids, and the visits became more infrequent over time.
It does seem however, to be a more "Western" phenomena than in other countries where staying close to family, and even multiple generations living together is the social norm - often because of financial constraints. Though it is becoming more and more like that in the US as wealth inequality along with poverty has grown. What used to be normally affordable: house, car, education and even groceries - now is becoming a major financial burden on Americans. More American children are continuing to live with their parents than ever before.
I reject this perspective as misguided. Many parents are horrible, many are not. Many adult children are horrible; many are not. Blaming aging parents for their adult children shutting them out is a substitute for understanding and compassion and ways to reconcile.
I don't think Caitlin's perspective is totally misguided, but she is leaving out quite a lot. My mother was violent and horrible. I hated her until I went into therapy where I was encouraged to try to understand how she got to where she was. She grew up poor in England. Then the second war came along when she was 15. Life messed her up. I could never convince her to go to therapy herself, but I am glad I did. It stopped me from hating her.
Thank you for this comment Susan. Brings the nuances into such scenarios.
After my son was born, I looked at all the people on the streets who were drunk, drug addicted, messed up and not really "nice" and kept thinking that once, they too were perfect little beings just like my son. Life can be shitty sometimes.
That is all the more reason not to be judgmental but to seek understand an compassion. Horrible parents probably had horrible parents: judging only continues the cycle whereas we need a perspective of healing to end it.
My point is that pointing a finger does not help a sad situation.
Or, your children may be unkind and without mercy and truth. It's about the breakdown of the country. Or, your children may be spoiled rotten and have lost decency and respect and understanding for people - including parents - that have lost their way.
I'm not sure it matters. I've bent over backwards to help and raise my children. and gave up my life so they had a stable home, and they still give me the silent treatment, or worse. On the other hand, their mom was and still is, a piece of crap (she actually abandoned them for extended periods of time), and she gets gold star treatment.
“I have heard it said that the way our adult children treat us is our performance review for our job as parents.” is exactly correct.
Once a child is an adult and no longer dependent on their parents/guardian, they’re free to make their own decisions and choices. If a parent/guardian has nurtured, nourished and protected the child while demonstrating love, devotion and appropriate response to the developing child’s talents and needs, chances are that same adult child will reciprocate. If not, well, ‘you reap what you sow’. For what it’s worth, that’s my take as a parent and grandparent.
I’m so grateful for this nearly daily injection of clarity and rational analysis by Johnstone. It’s my lifeline and often a wake up call.
As a former child, now adult who did exactly what you describe here, I can attest to the shitty behavior not being tolerated when kids reach adulthood. I have been always at odds with my mom and dad, both victims of dysfunctional upbringing which they generously passed on to us. Every time I heard people saying "you only have them", I was in a mental state of flipping the table. Because if that is the incentive to stay connected and be emotionally abused in the most laissez faire manner, thanks but no thanks. I try hard with my own kids and while they are at the age where I am their world, I know the day will come when they will become their own person and I will have to make sure I don't fudge it up. Nothing is for granted folks.
Your divorce comparison is the right one, and it cuts both ways. My mother lived under the old rule and stayed married to my father. I lived under it too, and in 1998, in my thirties, I broke it and cut him off.
There was no social media and no therapist pointing me toward the exit.
There was my father, who let himself into my apartment with my emergency keys and waited in the dark to tell me, a grown woman with a career, that I was a bad girl, scaring me half to death. There was a call to my office, passed to me in a meeting by my assistant, saying Dad was on the phone and my mother had had a stroke. She hadn't.
Those are two episodes out of thousands, big and small, over three decades.
The WSJ piece opens with parents in a Chicago conference hall asking why. My father never asked. My mother told me he felt I'd treated him unfairly and been ungrateful. She said he died heartbroken.
One thing I want to callout is that our relationships have all taken a toll since we were locked down and separated so things have become much worse between parent and child, even siblings and old friends.
We’re going to need to restore the community that society has destroyed:
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/the-greatest-tragedy-of-the-last
Thank you so much for this important article. I come from a family of narcissistic (cult-like) parents, one in which I was the scapegoat. It takes a lifetime to heal from narcissistic abuse, and healing is impossible without going no contact with your abusers. Yes, they've had difficult lives, but eventually people need to grow up and learn to take responsibility for their behavior.
Interestingly, people rarely criticize those who leave abusive cults.
I couldn't even begin to heal or thrive until after the death of my parents, although I largely minimized contact with them during their lifetimes. I also had to go no contact with my narcissistic sister, who was the so-called golden child. Attacking adult children for going no contact with their parents, siblings, and/or other abusive relatives is merely to perpetuate the abuse.
When my mother emotionally abused me by labelling me with a psychiatric label (she had NO psychiatric training whatsoever, and it was something two psychiatrists said they saw no symptoms of in me), by allowing my three elder siblings to bully me and defending their attitude instead of me, by getting explosively angry with me over trivial faults, among other things, I'd say that Caitlin is dead right here about our right to cut ourselves off from abusive parents.
My mother defended my father's behavior for decades rather than defend me. I'm sorry yours did the same.
No one -- parent or adult child -- should be abusive and expect a loving relationship in return.
Thank You Caitlin
It is my opinion that keeping the family structure intact is of historical, empirical importance. It is also my opinion that breaking generational trauma is of historical, empirical importance. Unfortunately, in order for the latter to become, the first has to take precedence when necessary.
I wish I didn’t have to cut contact with my dad. However sadly, I picked up a myriad of unhealthy, problematic relationship patterns, and without therapy, I would have been too close to see them. There’s a very high chance I would have continued the cycle. To further elaborate: I would not feel safe having my children around him, as I do not feel safe with him, as he did not feel safe with his father.
When there is compromise, accountability, and compassion available I think both parties need to utilize it, but if it’s not- then it’s not; expecting either party to “deal with it” isn’t fair just like in any other relationship.
All parents should thank their lucky stars that their kids give them the time of day, as all parents by definition have committed the mortal sin of dragging their innocent spirit-children into the temporal hell-world of flesh and bone. The greatest crime of all - procreation.
Sigh. Now now ...