Genital mutilation is a religious and cultural "right" and has been practised on millions and millions of people over the last 5,000 years because a) God told them to and b) it shows that childhood is over and the individual is now an adult.
If you really want to play that game, tell the Jews that Circumcision is now prohibited.
It should not be a religious or cultural right for anyone to alter the genitals of a minor, except if it is necessary to allow the child to urinate normally. Both FGM and circumcision of minors are reprehensible.
That is your opinion and many things (reprehensible or not) should or should not happen however in the real world, other's opinions also matter and quite honestly it is arrogant to believe that your opinion is more moral or right than another's.
“Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one.”
A person's human rights stop short of someone else's body. It cannot possibly be ethical to mutilate the genitals of a child for anything other than a life-saving medical reason.
Is it? Why do you think your values are deemed higher than theirs? You’re one if the people that push your ideologies onto other people, whether they want you to or not. How about you mind your own business and do what suits you. Let other people do what suits them.
It cannot possibly be right to have an opinion that disagrees with 5,000 years of cultural practise and hundreds of millions of 'mutilations'.
When water is scarce, then circumcision is a means of reducing, removing the chance of infection in the prepuce. That is why hundreds of millions of Africans, Arabs, Jews and others do it.
50 years ago it was, like vaccination, the advice of the whole medical profession. It reduced the likelihood of HPV, so they said.
As far as female circumcision, the practise usually involves opening the hood and thereby improving the sensitivity of the clitoris.
However your opinion is so overwhelmingly important that those billion or more people should immediately change their religious and cultural traditions because it offends you.
"It cannot possibly be right to have an opinion that disagrees with 5,000 years of cultural practise and hundreds of millions of 'mutilations'." There are also thousands of years of things like slavery and forced marriage. Do you also endorse all those things?
The risk of infection of the prepuce is not increased when water is scarce. That is nonsense, and was thoroughly disproved in WW2. Intact soldiers in North Africa did not experience problems with their foreskins more often than circumcised soldiers. Circumcision was started in Judaism as a minimalist form of human sacrifice.
Circumcision does not reduce the likelihood of HPV.
Female circumcision does not improve the sensitivity of the clitoris.
Why do you just make up lies, PJ London?
Circumcision was largely abandoned in my country in the 1970s. It was led by the medical profession, and has not resulted in any increase of any penile problems.
Sexual mutilation of minors of either sex has no medical indications whatsoever. Religious and cultural traditions that violate the human rights of minors should absolutely be banned worldwide.
Wow, you are so deluded. Religious superstition and religious customs are IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF INJURY TO ANOTHER PERSON, ESPECIALLY A CHILD OR BABY!!!
Dude, you are so fucking obtuse with most subjects. It’s not solely a religious practice. Remember you’re arguing on the side of the bigot transphobes. WTF?!
It makes sex and childbirth horribly painful for the woman and obliterates any possible joy. It's an awful form of male control over women even though women carry it out and it is exceedingly painful. I imagine quite a few infections result.
Your opinion has been wrong in just about every manner. Your dipshit book you’ve been writing is common knowledge. You’re siding with the MAGA bigots, fucking dipshit!
Circumcision should be prohibited. It's category A child abuse. Remember they do it at 8 days old. It becomes an internalised trauma, which results, after indoctrination, of hatred of the other/strangers, as well as irrevocably destroying the mother-child bond. Explains a lot, psychologically.
No 'god' would ever demand such an evil, child-abusive practice. That's not a god, it's a demon pretending to be a god. By gaslighting his followers into doing one of the most evil things imaginable - abusing their own children - he is essentially succeeding in getting them to do anything evil. As we are seeing in Palestine.
".. It becomes an internalised trauma, which results, after indoctrination, of hatred of the other/strangers, as well as irrevocably destroying the mother-child bond. .."
What total bullshit!
You have no facts to support that ridiculous assertion.
"..No 'god' would ever demand such an evil, child-abusive practice .." Well he is the "God" that all Jewish and billions of Christians follow and have faith in, do you have several billion followers over centuries? No, I did not think so.
The Africans have the circumcision as a rite of manhood. No God, merely 20,000 years of tradition. Like Muslims, this rite is conducted between the ages of 13 and 16, so no the trauma does not have any effect on Mother-child relations.
Your feelings and opinions do not apply outside of your skull and yet you feel you have the right to judge and instruct others in how they should conduct their lives.
You have a serious mental issue and should seek help.
Yes. Any of us that offer opinions that disagree with yours are arrogant people--how DARE we express an opinion?! If we persist clearly we are in need of medical help. But be careful--you have come dangerously close to expressing an opinion yourself!
Not at all, you can express an opinion, as I do, but I do not feel that my opinion should form the basis for world behaviour.
It is the dictatorial mind set that believes that their opinion has some moral, ethical 'right' to be enforced on everyone else, regardless of their religion, culture or tradition that makes it a mental issue.
A nation without boundaries is not a nation. (See Israel for example) Laws regarding entry and exit are relatively new. In the 1800s and early 1900s one could come and go as one wished.
Originally a travel document issued to foreigners to allow them to enter and pass through the city portal.
Actually, research shows that circumcision permanently lowers the pain threshold.
Furthermore, circumcision has been linked to significantly increased likelihood of the child becoming a rapist as an adult.
Your attack on Evelyn as having a "serious mental issue" is a disgusting ad hominem, or rather, ad mulierem, attack.
It seems highly likely that you are a circumcised man who is desperately defending his mutilated state, unable to cope with the reality that his parents chose to deprive him of tens of thousands of specialized erogenous nerve endings.
I was wondering whether he was also a circumcision victim, gaslighted into defending it because he's not allowed to say his parents abused him. That's the pathology right there, and he's clearly been triggered somehow.
I know he denies it in his reply below, but I have my doubts...
2/ African tribes don’t mutilate babies who can’t have anything explained to them and can’t consent. That’s why they wait until teenagerhood. So it’s not a trauma.
3/ Actually, there are facts to support these assertions - there are many psychology papers on the subject. I’m not going to link to any of them for you however because a/ you wouldn’t read them, because you’re not capable of changing your opinions, and b/ I very much doubt you’d understand the papers anyway. So no point, really.
4/ I don’t see what your point is about some demon pretending to be a god having so many followers. If anything, that simply proves just how powerful the coercive control has been. It’s infantilising. Mature human beings do not need to follow some authoritarian entity, god or demon. They don’t need ‘commandments’ or ‘diktats’ or to be told what to do, think, believe, feel etc. You clearly do, because you are incapable of psychological maturity. Mature people are innately good, and can tell the difference between right and wrong. The fact that you are attempting to defend lifelong mutilation of an innocent 8-days old baby, with all the accompanying trauma, adequately demonstrates your own inability to tell the difference. I seriously hope you don’t have children.
1) no because about 20% - 50% don't make it to puberty. It is a rite of passage to adulthood.
2) Are you insane, it is much more traumatic when you can see and understand what is happening and not have access to painkillers.
3) For every Psychologist that shares your view I can bring another who is totally opposed. it is the nature of today's society, in every sphere.
4) One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, one man's demon is another man's god. The point about followers is that it has bearing on the weight of an opinion. "Mature people are innately good" you have no data to support that assertion and further you cannot define "good" except in your cultural environment. Killing is good if the government sanctions it. Theft is moral if it is in the form of taxes. Sex is bad unless you are 16 (in some states) 18 (in others) or 21 if you are insane.
5) I am not 'defending' anything except freedom. your viewpoint is not shared by millions not even in the western culture, so for you to make your opinion the basis of what others should or should not do is sheer hubris.
I hope that you do not have children, I encouraged mine to think for themselves and question everything. Which is why they are extremely successful and wealthy.
I am far too responsible to bring a child into a dystopian hell like this world. It would be cruel, abusive, and selfish. The only potential reason why I'd bring a child into this world would be to fully train it in all the skills and talents and understanding it needed to become a leader of the resistance. If that necessitated Monarch-style MPD programming then so be it.
Even so, given the number of children in the world without parents I would go down the adoption route, and make very sure that child knew it was loved.
If your children are 'extremely successful and wealthy' then I'm guessing they must be very well adapted to this society.
So you don't have children, you don't want children, you hate the world and all that is in it, you want to torture and traumatise children so that they can become terrorists and yet you want to give advice to people who are parents.!
'Sincerely' there is zero "Hysteria" in any of my responses.
When people make assertions, such as ".. hysterical in your responses" or "... It becomes an internalised trauma, which results, after indoctrination, of hatred of the other/strangers, as well as irrevocably destroying the mother-child bond. .." it is arrogant and annoying.
I make clear when I am expressing an opinion and do not expect, much less demand, that others share that opinion.
"Billions of people have been wrong before" is true, but that offers no reason to suppose that they are wrong in this instance.
I find it amusing that maybe 1 in 10 responses actually address an issue and attempt a logical, fact based refutation.
The rest are just annoyed that their beliefs and ideas have no real basis that can be defended.
I am fully aware of that, but it has no bearing on the fact that Jewish tradition and beliefs are still held, or that millions of Muslims and Africans still practise it.
It may be a cultural/religious thing but it IS harmful to children and should be blocked. I refer to male neonatal circumcision, not FGM which is an atrocity that should be blocked everywhere. Males survive their infant circumcision with no evident harm done, but survivors of FGM are horribly mutilated.
Males don't survive their infant circumcision with no harm done. Their pain threshold is permanently altered. Their likelihood of growing up to be rapists is increased. Their risk of meatal stenosis is hugely increased; 37% of men who have been circumcised develop some degree of meatal stenosis. Their risk of erectile dysfunction by the time they reach their forties is also very significantly increased.
No it's not - there are a lot of academic research papers on the harms, especially psychological, of neonatal MGM. Don't rely on me to give you links though - look it up yourself. It'll be more worthwhile that way.
Again, some male circumcisions are 'botched' and cause scarring and problems for life. Some Female circumcisions are botched and cause harm, as do many plastic surgeries and tattooing.
However, the fact is that normal female operation has no more issues than the male operation. It is western/missionary faux 'outrage' that has caused this to be an issue not facts. Each year 100s of African youths die undergoing their circumcision rites, but you don't hear any western/UN hysterics about that.
Just because someone and the vicar do not like something does not mean that it is wrong.
"normal" FGM is very different from what you say, unless we have been lied to. What I have read is that it is done to girls around 6 to 10 years old, with a piece of broken glass, and the object is to entirely remove the clitoris lest lust cause the girl to stray from her future husband--that it often interferes with menstruation and possibly sex. That the same societies also have husbands having their wives ' vaginas stitched to keep them tight, which makes sex painful for the woman but who cares about the woman?
First stop and think, even if the clitoris was removed (which it is not) how could this interfere with menstruation?
Given the position it would not even 'interfere' with sex.
The cultural prohibition on adultery and the consequences of being caught will stop any thought of "straying".
Of course millions of western women would not dream of vaginoplasty or labiaplasty which is why hundreds of clinics world wide offer it, usually with the man having to pay for it, but who cares about the man?
The general operation is to release the skin between the clitoral hood and the external cover. Thus increasing the area of the clitoris and increasing the pleasure. But then these people are savages so we are told.
N African women look forward to the 'rite' as Jewish girls do to their Bat-mitzvah. Incidentally Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Pagan women in N Africa undergo the ritual as it is cultural and not religious. Some Muslim women in Asia also have this done at about the same time the boys are circumcised.
"The cellular lamella grows down on the dorsal side of the clitoris and is eventually fused with the clitoris."
"Sticky bands of tissue called adhesions can form between the hood and the glans; these stick the hood onto the glans so the hood cannot be pulled back to expose the glans and smegma can accumulate"
Exactly the same as a male prepuce.
If you are going to make unfounded and erroneous comments, please do it to someone who can be intimidated.
Genital mutilation is a religious and cultural "right" and has been practised on millions and millions of people over the last 5,000 years because a) God told them to and b) it shows that childhood is over and the individual is now an adult.
If you really want to play that game, tell the Jews that Circumcision is now prohibited.
Take your head out of your anus.
It should not be a religious or cultural right for anyone to alter the genitals of a minor, except if it is necessary to allow the child to urinate normally. Both FGM and circumcision of minors are reprehensible.
That is your opinion and many things (reprehensible or not) should or should not happen however in the real world, other's opinions also matter and quite honestly it is arrogant to believe that your opinion is more moral or right than another's.
“Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one.”
— Sylvia Plath
A person's human rights stop short of someone else's body. It cannot possibly be ethical to mutilate the genitals of a child for anything other than a life-saving medical reason.
Other cultures and beliefs exist, besides yours.
Is it? Why do you think your values are deemed higher than theirs? You’re one if the people that push your ideologies onto other people, whether they want you to or not. How about you mind your own business and do what suits you. Let other people do what suits them.
It cannot possibly be right to have an opinion that disagrees with 5,000 years of cultural practise and hundreds of millions of 'mutilations'.
When water is scarce, then circumcision is a means of reducing, removing the chance of infection in the prepuce. That is why hundreds of millions of Africans, Arabs, Jews and others do it.
50 years ago it was, like vaccination, the advice of the whole medical profession. It reduced the likelihood of HPV, so they said.
As far as female circumcision, the practise usually involves opening the hood and thereby improving the sensitivity of the clitoris.
However your opinion is so overwhelmingly important that those billion or more people should immediately change their religious and cultural traditions because it offends you.
Really?
"It cannot possibly be right to have an opinion that disagrees with 5,000 years of cultural practise and hundreds of millions of 'mutilations'." There are also thousands of years of things like slavery and forced marriage. Do you also endorse all those things?
The risk of infection of the prepuce is not increased when water is scarce. That is nonsense, and was thoroughly disproved in WW2. Intact soldiers in North Africa did not experience problems with their foreskins more often than circumcised soldiers. Circumcision was started in Judaism as a minimalist form of human sacrifice.
Circumcision does not reduce the likelihood of HPV.
Female circumcision does not improve the sensitivity of the clitoris.
Why do you just make up lies, PJ London?
Circumcision was largely abandoned in my country in the 1970s. It was led by the medical profession, and has not resulted in any increase of any penile problems.
Sexual mutilation of minors of either sex has no medical indications whatsoever. Religious and cultural traditions that violate the human rights of minors should absolutely be banned worldwide.
Wow, you are so deluded. Religious superstition and religious customs are IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE OF INJURY TO ANOTHER PERSON, ESPECIALLY A CHILD OR BABY!!!
Dude, you are so fucking obtuse with most subjects. It’s not solely a religious practice. Remember you’re arguing on the side of the bigot transphobes. WTF?!
It makes sex and childbirth horribly painful for the woman and obliterates any possible joy. It's an awful form of male control over women even though women carry it out and it is exceedingly painful. I imagine quite a few infections result.
Your opinion clearly counts for sh*T in this matter
Your opinion has been wrong in just about every manner. Your dipshit book you’ve been writing is common knowledge. You’re siding with the MAGA bigots, fucking dipshit!
Circumcision should be prohibited. It's category A child abuse. Remember they do it at 8 days old. It becomes an internalised trauma, which results, after indoctrination, of hatred of the other/strangers, as well as irrevocably destroying the mother-child bond. Explains a lot, psychologically.
No 'god' would ever demand such an evil, child-abusive practice. That's not a god, it's a demon pretending to be a god. By gaslighting his followers into doing one of the most evil things imaginable - abusing their own children - he is essentially succeeding in getting them to do anything evil. As we are seeing in Palestine.
".. It becomes an internalised trauma, which results, after indoctrination, of hatred of the other/strangers, as well as irrevocably destroying the mother-child bond. .."
What total bullshit!
You have no facts to support that ridiculous assertion.
"..No 'god' would ever demand such an evil, child-abusive practice .." Well he is the "God" that all Jewish and billions of Christians follow and have faith in, do you have several billion followers over centuries? No, I did not think so.
The Africans have the circumcision as a rite of manhood. No God, merely 20,000 years of tradition. Like Muslims, this rite is conducted between the ages of 13 and 16, so no the trauma does not have any effect on Mother-child relations.
Your feelings and opinions do not apply outside of your skull and yet you feel you have the right to judge and instruct others in how they should conduct their lives.
You have a serious mental issue and should seek help.
Yes. Any of us that offer opinions that disagree with yours are arrogant people--how DARE we express an opinion?! If we persist clearly we are in need of medical help. But be careful--you have come dangerously close to expressing an opinion yourself!
Not at all, you can express an opinion, as I do, but I do not feel that my opinion should form the basis for world behaviour.
It is the dictatorial mind set that believes that their opinion has some moral, ethical 'right' to be enforced on everyone else, regardless of their religion, culture or tradition that makes it a mental issue.
So you don't believe in universal human rights. Got it.
lol! You’re truly an idiot!
A nation without boundaries is not a nation. (See Israel for example) Laws regarding entry and exit are relatively new. In the 1800s and early 1900s one could come and go as one wished.
Originally a travel document issued to foreigners to allow them to enter and pass through the city portal.
Actually, research shows that circumcision permanently lowers the pain threshold.
Furthermore, circumcision has been linked to significantly increased likelihood of the child becoming a rapist as an adult.
Your attack on Evelyn as having a "serious mental issue" is a disgusting ad hominem, or rather, ad mulierem, attack.
It seems highly likely that you are a circumcised man who is desperately defending his mutilated state, unable to cope with the reality that his parents chose to deprive him of tens of thousands of specialized erogenous nerve endings.
1) lowers etc. So what?
2) I doubt that it is Circumcision, the cultures that practise it are usually far more violent and misogynistic.
Anyone who wants to dictate what everyone else must do has a serious mental issue.
I am not circumcised so that blows your whole BS out of the water.
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day, child abuser.
I was wondering whether he was also a circumcision victim, gaslighted into defending it because he's not allowed to say his parents abused him. That's the pathology right there, and he's clearly been triggered somehow.
I know he denies it in his reply below, but I have my doubts...
1/ Stop projecting.
2/ African tribes don’t mutilate babies who can’t have anything explained to them and can’t consent. That’s why they wait until teenagerhood. So it’s not a trauma.
3/ Actually, there are facts to support these assertions - there are many psychology papers on the subject. I’m not going to link to any of them for you however because a/ you wouldn’t read them, because you’re not capable of changing your opinions, and b/ I very much doubt you’d understand the papers anyway. So no point, really.
4/ I don’t see what your point is about some demon pretending to be a god having so many followers. If anything, that simply proves just how powerful the coercive control has been. It’s infantilising. Mature human beings do not need to follow some authoritarian entity, god or demon. They don’t need ‘commandments’ or ‘diktats’ or to be told what to do, think, believe, feel etc. You clearly do, because you are incapable of psychological maturity. Mature people are innately good, and can tell the difference between right and wrong. The fact that you are attempting to defend lifelong mutilation of an innocent 8-days old baby, with all the accompanying trauma, adequately demonstrates your own inability to tell the difference. I seriously hope you don’t have children.
1) no because about 20% - 50% don't make it to puberty. It is a rite of passage to adulthood.
2) Are you insane, it is much more traumatic when you can see and understand what is happening and not have access to painkillers.
3) For every Psychologist that shares your view I can bring another who is totally opposed. it is the nature of today's society, in every sphere.
4) One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, one man's demon is another man's god. The point about followers is that it has bearing on the weight of an opinion. "Mature people are innately good" you have no data to support that assertion and further you cannot define "good" except in your cultural environment. Killing is good if the government sanctions it. Theft is moral if it is in the form of taxes. Sex is bad unless you are 16 (in some states) 18 (in others) or 21 if you are insane.
5) I am not 'defending' anything except freedom. your viewpoint is not shared by millions not even in the western culture, so for you to make your opinion the basis of what others should or should not do is sheer hubris.
I hope that you do not have children, I encouraged mine to think for themselves and question everything. Which is why they are extremely successful and wealthy.
Yet you yourself refuse to question circumcision. Got it.
I am far too responsible to bring a child into a dystopian hell like this world. It would be cruel, abusive, and selfish. The only potential reason why I'd bring a child into this world would be to fully train it in all the skills and talents and understanding it needed to become a leader of the resistance. If that necessitated Monarch-style MPD programming then so be it.
Even so, given the number of children in the world without parents I would go down the adoption route, and make very sure that child knew it was loved.
If your children are 'extremely successful and wealthy' then I'm guessing they must be very well adapted to this society.
So you don't have children, you don't want children, you hate the world and all that is in it, you want to torture and traumatise children so that they can become terrorists and yet you want to give advice to people who are parents.!
Got it.
Get help.
Ok, transphobe.
'Sincerely' there is zero "Hysteria" in any of my responses.
When people make assertions, such as ".. hysterical in your responses" or "... It becomes an internalised trauma, which results, after indoctrination, of hatred of the other/strangers, as well as irrevocably destroying the mother-child bond. .." it is arrogant and annoying.
I make clear when I am expressing an opinion and do not expect, much less demand, that others share that opinion.
"Billions of people have been wrong before" is true, but that offers no reason to suppose that they are wrong in this instance.
I find it amusing that maybe 1 in 10 responses actually address an issue and attempt a logical, fact based refutation.
The rest are just annoyed that their beliefs and ideas have no real basis that can be defended.
I am fully aware of that, but it has no bearing on the fact that Jewish tradition and beliefs are still held, or that millions of Muslims and Africans still practise it.
It is totally irrelevant.
A right to torture and injure? Are you for real? MGM should be illegal worldwide, just as FGM mostly is!
It may be a cultural/religious thing but it IS harmful to children and should be blocked. I refer to male neonatal circumcision, not FGM which is an atrocity that should be blocked everywhere. Males survive their infant circumcision with no evident harm done, but survivors of FGM are horribly mutilated.
Males don't survive their infant circumcision with no harm done. Their pain threshold is permanently altered. Their likelihood of growing up to be rapists is increased. Their risk of meatal stenosis is hugely increased; 37% of men who have been circumcised develop some degree of meatal stenosis. Their risk of erectile dysfunction by the time they reach their forties is also very significantly increased.
This is ridiculous!
No it's not - there are a lot of academic research papers on the harms, especially psychological, of neonatal MGM. Don't rely on me to give you links though - look it up yourself. It'll be more worthwhile that way.
Again, some male circumcisions are 'botched' and cause scarring and problems for life. Some Female circumcisions are botched and cause harm, as do many plastic surgeries and tattooing.
However, the fact is that normal female operation has no more issues than the male operation. It is western/missionary faux 'outrage' that has caused this to be an issue not facts. Each year 100s of African youths die undergoing their circumcision rites, but you don't hear any western/UN hysterics about that.
Just because someone and the vicar do not like something does not mean that it is wrong.
"normal" FGM is very different from what you say, unless we have been lied to. What I have read is that it is done to girls around 6 to 10 years old, with a piece of broken glass, and the object is to entirely remove the clitoris lest lust cause the girl to stray from her future husband--that it often interferes with menstruation and possibly sex. That the same societies also have husbands having their wives ' vaginas stitched to keep them tight, which makes sex painful for the woman but who cares about the woman?
You have been lied to.
First stop and think, even if the clitoris was removed (which it is not) how could this interfere with menstruation?
Given the position it would not even 'interfere' with sex.
The cultural prohibition on adultery and the consequences of being caught will stop any thought of "straying".
Of course millions of western women would not dream of vaginoplasty or labiaplasty which is why hundreds of clinics world wide offer it, usually with the man having to pay for it, but who cares about the man?
The general operation is to release the skin between the clitoral hood and the external cover. Thus increasing the area of the clitoris and increasing the pleasure. But then these people are savages so we are told.
N African women look forward to the 'rite' as Jewish girls do to their Bat-mitzvah. Incidentally Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Pagan women in N Africa undergo the ritual as it is cultural and not religious. Some Muslim women in Asia also have this done at about the same time the boys are circumcised.
The clitoral hood is not attached to any "external cover" in any normal adult woman. You clearly know nothing about normal female genitalia.
It normally is.
"The cellular lamella grows down on the dorsal side of the clitoris and is eventually fused with the clitoris."
"Sticky bands of tissue called adhesions can form between the hood and the glans; these stick the hood onto the glans so the hood cannot be pulled back to expose the glans and smegma can accumulate"
Exactly the same as a male prepuce.
If you are going to make unfounded and erroneous comments, please do it to someone who can be intimidated.
You clearly have an agenda.
so you are cool with hundreds of African youths dying due to pointless mutilation? Wow!
I am cool with people being allowed to make their own decisions.
Their rituals are not pointless.
Your ignorance and arrogance is worthy of "Wow".
A guy on mushrooms said God told them to maybe. A guy with a sick, sick mind much like yours except about 4000 years ago.