Nope - NO FALSE FLAG! This is ordinary, normal, humans doing ordinary, normal things (like assassinating Genocidal killers and murderers of babies, children, women, and more). This is a BRAVE INDIVIDUAL sacrificing his life for PALESTINE! He definitely has my respect!
There are going to be many more such events happening in many Western nations all over the world. This is BLOWBACK! It was inevitable. It was only a matter of time...
The world is NOT the same anymore...Genocidal Israel, Zionists, and their supporters have changed the world forever...may they reap what they sow!
Let us remember what Israel did to Jeffery Epstein after his many years in their employ. Yeah, on its face it seems ridiculous... until... you can't come up with a better reason.
Let us recall what happened to Jack Ruby (Rubinstein a semi-high level member of Lansky's National Crime Syndicate).
It isn't like there are just two-sides to this story. There are dozens of organizations which might have set up a "false-flag".
"False Flag" only means that the real actors were someone other than the accused.
Who recalls Lee Harvey Oswald? Kennedy was hit from multiple directions.
Nope - too many conspiracy theorists on Caitlin's substack (and on Substack in general). This is BLOWBACK - plain and simple - just as 9/11 was blowback and Oct 7 was blowback.
There ya go again, ignoring the evidence that is so clear a child could see it.
9/11 was, in no way, "blow back". It was an Israeli* inspired false flag. Even the MSM was full of stories of how easy it was for the perpetrators to slip through US security..
If that were the only instance, perhaps I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.
But then there are the Tsarnaev brothers of the Boston Marathon bombing.
And how do you know that? Think they don't have to resources to make just about every publicly violent act done by their own hand? Israel cannot be trusted. On Oct 7, with Israels huge surveillance arsenal, they would have known there was going to be an insurgence. They are liars and looters and murderers. I'm talking about the regime not the people. But many of their people love all the killing too.
"Not everything is a SCAD or false flag"? True, but Tom? So many things are. So what "he" wrote a manifesto. Those things are easy enough for forge. So what he shouted "Free Palestine". Have you read or watched "The Manchurian Candidate"? In the past 10 years alone since my home was stolen from me (foolishly purchased on native land) I have experienced corruption and criminality – and manipulation – on the part of all our "leaders", that even though it happened to me? I'm still stunned with incredulity!
>>"9/11 was, in no way, "blow back". It was an Israeli* inspired false flag."
HaHa - did you not read my comment elsewhere on this article that "Substack is FULL of conspiracy theorists and unfortunately so is Caitlin's substack"?
I'm not going to argue conspiracy theories with Conspiracy Theorists - there is a psychology behind it. Conspiracy theorists NEED to believe in such theories to help them make sense of a senseless world. This NEED to believe in such theories is so strong that it becomes a part of their core - regardless of the evidence, facts, whatever.
You are welcome to waste your life chasing down conspiracy theories - they seem to help you make sense of the world and keep you sane - so go for it - stay emotionally healthy - use whatever coping mechanism works. I prefer reality (no matter how uncomfortable it may be for me). The world doesn't need to 'have to' make sense to me - I am ok with the randomness, the chaosness, and all the coincidences in the world - everything doesn't need to have a reason or an explanation - everything doesn't need to have a solution or an answer. I'm comfortable with unknowns and uncertainty.
Most conspiracy theorists are uncomfortable with randomness, lack of causality, lack of coherence, lack of patterns, and lack of definite answers and explanations that are all too common in a universe with more questions than answers.
Believing in conspiracy theories has NOTHING (or very little) to do with one's intelligence. But you would know that if you were well versed on the subject.
Dude, believe whatever makes you comfortable. Why does it matter to you what I believe or what I think?
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the labor of thinking."
– Joshua Reynolds
"Most people would sooner die than think. In fact, they do."
– Betrand Russell
The issue Chang, is not my belief (amply demonstrated) that the very rich and powerful are actively working to maintain their position to the rest of humanity's detriment. The issue is your automatic flat rejection – in totality – of the thesis.
The way I have expressed myself (i.e. my automatic flat rejection) is not automatic (though it seems that way). I don't intend to bore people here (or elsewhere) with the nitty-gritty details that goes into thinking before I arrive at conclusions.
Hence, people don't get to see all the steps (and effort) that my mind makes in critically thinking about the situation - they only see the end result - which is the conclusion. Hence the impression that my response is "automatic".
Critical thinking is NEVER automatic - it is deliberative, cognitively demanding, and energy draining (for the specifics of this I refer you to Daniel Kahneman's book - Thinking Fast and Slow). But people only ever get to observe the end results (i.e. the conclusions) of the though process - hence the appearance of "automatic or haphazard or incomplete" thinking.
If I were to explain all the details of WHY the probabilites are exceedingly low (low enough to discard the false-flag hypothesis) for this event to be a 'FALSE FLAG' event, it would take several pages - and NO ONE is interested in that (or has the patience or time for it). No one here is interested in reading detailed, researched, analysis - of this or anything else. That is ONE of the problems/limitations of online discussion arenas/spaces - it doesn't give one the depth needed to really examine discourses in adequate detail.
"Rich and powerful people don't get together and make plans! You're a kook! You're a 'Conspiracy Buff'"
– George Carlin
Sorry Chang, but for me, especially 9/11? Anyone who uses the term "Conspiracy Theory" in any context, for me is immediately suspect. "Conspiracy Theory" was a notion created by the CIA in the wake of the Warren Commission's grotesque conclusions regarding the first Kennedy Assassination. I'm aware of Cass Sunstein's 2008 paper on "Conspiracy Theory"; I was unable to read it, it was so biased and contemptuous of the mere possibility. You might do well to read "Conspiracy Theory in America by Lance deHaven-Smith" and the more recent "180 Degrees: Unlearn the Lies You've Been Taught to Believe" by Feargus O'Connor Greenwood. The creatures running our shared shitshow treat "reality" like a game of chess, they're always planning 4-5 moves ahead. The one thing in our favor? They're not actually all that clever... 🤔🙄
There are also different TYPES of conspiracy theories. Here is an interesting look at some of the different types/categories -> [https://conspiracychart.com]
In retrospect the silence in this morning's news could indicate that they (Israel) are now scared. False flag or not it will probably mark the beginning of a string of attacks on Israeli institutions. As ye sow so shall ye reap. I suspect that the US could be next for these attacks.
This happened right after a few European and British politicians turned on them. Its always the sympathy play with them, they get none from me. Any Zionist or their servants are fair game in my book, and that includes this "happy" fucking couple.
Now you have totally lost me. You use "conspiracy theorists" and "conspiracy theory" exactly how the CIA initially intended its use when the term was coined after JFK. I even suspect you now as some sort of controlled opposition after previously agreeing with many of your comments.
To summarize: No, this murder was not part of a Mossad conspiracy or false flag, but 9/11 almost assuredly was. What do you know about the Munich Olympics, BTW? Do you think "Black September" was a Palestinian operation? If so, I can recommend some reading materials.
I don't mean to use Conspircy Theorists in a pejorative way. Conspiracy Theorists are usually quite intelligent people - they take great effort at seeking out patterns and attempting to connect-the-dots.
Also, there are several conspiracy theories that ARE true.
>>" I even suspect you now as some sort of controlled opposition after previously agreeing with many of your comments."
That is more conspiratorial thinking on your part.
Like I to said to someone else, I'm not going to argue individual conspiracy theoies with you. It is ALWAYS a time-waster and counter-productive.
I could recommend many books for you to read (on conspiracy theories and conspiratorial thinking and WHY people believe conspiracies), but I am quite confident that you will not read them. If you decide to change your mind, let me know.
" did you not read my comment elsewhere on this article that "Substack is FULL of conspiracy theorists and unfortunately so is Caitlin's substack"? - HA HA !
No 9/11 was not done by Muslims. Oh boy. Do you even know that Building 7 went down the same way on that day? Do you know it was reported by the BBC 20 minutes before it went down? Oh there is so much more.
Why should I? You're not going to believe me whatever I say. This is the basis of conspiratorial thinking - no amount of evidence or facts or truth dissuades a conspiracy theorist from abandoning their theories. On rare occasions, some intellectually honest people DO manage to change their minds.
Conspiracy theorists weave and weave and weave - their egos are too tightly tied to their theories unfortunately, thus making the 'denying of their conspiracy theories' a personal matter.
I agree Chang. There is no reason to believe this wasn’t just a frustrated, angry citizen, much like Mangione. This is to be expected. It is going to increase as the oppression increases. The Zionist genocide has been taken advantage of by many governments (most notably the USA and UK) to introduce authoritarian, pre-Nazi oppressions. Just as in Europe in the 1940s, internal citizens and groups will form a resistance. Israel is certainly capable of a false flag event like this but my guess is that Mangione and Rodriguez are early examples of what is to come. As the resistance matures you’ll see more attacks on the politicians and oligarchs.
For those who worry these individual acts will give the "fascists the ammo they need to come after us", the fascists don't need "ammo". Coming after those they label as "other" and those who are like them but disagree with them is in the fascist DNA. Biden, Trump, Sunak, and Starmer didn't need events like this to introduce legislation and tactics to suppress peaceful protests. They are coming for us; we should be getting ready rather than condemning individual acts or debating conspiracy theories.
>>"Coming after those they label as "other" and those who are like them but disagree with them is in the fascist DNA. Biden, Trump, Sunak, and Starmer didn't need events like this to introduce legislation and tactics to suppress peaceful protests."
I disapprove of your use of the pejorative "conspiracy theorists" because it is a CIA coined phrase designed specifically to de-legitimize critical discussion of SCADs (state crimes against democracy).
That said, I 100% agree with you that this was not a false flag. There is too much evidence otherwise and people are not savvy enough to parse the information from the noise and bullshit.
Conspiracy theories thrive in societies in upheaval, with poor education systems, disaffected populations, and low social capital. But experts can’t simply tell people to stop believing lies. Rather, society has to put people in a better position to see the truth. This is part of what Caitlin does with her Substack articles.
And remember - conspiracy theories are NOT unique to the U.S. They are global.
Tom, you're not interested in the truth to the same level as you are interested in believing the theories you wish to believe. There is NO END to the excuses, twists, deflections, connections, irrelevant information, etc. that a conspiracy theorist would go through to defend their beliefs. Your comments are PROOF of that.
The dispatch was produced in response to a Freedom of Information Act request by the New York Times in 1976.
The dispatch states:
2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization.
The aim of this dispatch is to provide materialcountering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.
3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the [conspiracy] question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active addresses are requested:
a. To discuss the publicity problem with and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors) , pointing out that the [official investigation of the relevant event] made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by … propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.
b. To employ propaganda assets to and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (II) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories.
4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:
a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider.
b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent–and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) …
c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc.
d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other.
f. As to charges that the Commission’s report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.
g. Such vague accusations as that “more than ten people have died mysteriously” can always be explained in some natural way
5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission’s Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.
That is the First sign of weak critical thinking - to look at sources first instead of critically parsing the information. Sources should be looked at for bias, but the information withing should be analyzed and though about critically FIRST.
Otherwise, what you are simply doing is displaying CONFIRMATION BIAS. You can simply deny any sources that go against your confirmation biases (as you are doing with Snopes currently). The left does this, the right does this, liberals do this, conservatives to this.
Are you ready to challenge your confirmation baises? And think critically? Are you open to reading (at at intellectual and academic level) about Conspiracism?
You seem to be threatened by facts/evidence that go against your beliefs - as evidenced by your long-winded 'detailed' comment (and attempt) at trying to find flaws in the above mentioned sources. That is the normal behavior/response of someone when they are faced with facts that question their deeply held beliefs. Congratulations - you are normal.
False flag or not, I see this setting the pro Palestinian movement back and give Trump, Rubio & the other cabinet fascists the ammo they need to come after "us" . . . .
That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is as an expansion of awareness of what the world has come to.
Things CANNOT go back to how they were before this Genocide. The world has FOREVER changed. Much about the future is going to be unpredictable and uncomfortable.
All I know is that the Genocidal state of Israel MUST BE DESTROYED (in one way or another), and MUST CEASE TO EXIST in its current form...
This is blowback from humans that are appalled by the Genocide conducted by Israel. There is MUCH MORE blowback (of similar kinds AND worse) yet to come for Israel.
Similarly, there is MUCH BLOWBACK yet to be received by the U.S. Empire for its decades it imperialist policies.
It is only a matter of time before ORDINARY HUMANS (and the Global South) do with comes naturally to humans - revenge and retaliation - for all the oppression, exploitation, imperialism, terrorism, etc. suffered by ordinary people (and the Global South) at the hands of the U.S. Empire and Israel.
Like I said, these are the consequences of BLOWBACK.
Respectfully cannot agree with you. We don’t know enough.
And he could have been a pro Palestinian that was set up by Mossad…
Interesting that one of the people killed was a Christian, don’t you think?
Let’s see if they actually investigate this thoroughly.
We simply don’t know.
The best I can say is it’s 50-50 odds.
But there are a lot more Mossad operatives and operations then there are people in the world willing to do this. But there are probably a lot of desperate people in the world who could be coerced into doing such a thing: threats to family, psychological tactics, black mail, monetary reward…..Mossad do all of this.
So, I feel I’m being more then fair stating the odds at 50-50 as the probability seem much higher on the Mossad side, given notice, past behaviour.
Until now, the only Jews killed in anti-semitic attacks in America since the at in Gaza have been other Jews who were mistaken for Palestinians. Many Palestinians in the other hand have been attacked and shot by islamaphobes.
Just keep an open mind is all im saying, and wait to see what the independent journalists uncover
He could have been many things. The fact is none of us know. What you should be asking yourselves on each and every theory put forward is what if it's true? I'm not talking about one theory. I'm talking about all of them. Question them all critically. Do not be afraid to change your mind. Is this or that theory worthy or is it just a distraction. Keep your minds open especially to the fact that you could be wrong. If you think you've never been wrong you are a fool.
You don't need to agree with me. One needs to think critically. And one should keep an open mind - but not such an open mind that their brains fall out and they start believing in normal events as being false flags and conspiratorial events.
>>"Interesting that one of the people killed was a Christian, don’t you think?"
Irrelevant. This is extraneous info. This is how conspiracy theories work - EVERY insignificant detail is given paramount importance so as to 'connect all the dots' in some kind of 'grand plan', 'grand conspiracy'.
There is a very simple explanation for this. In fact, it is so simple that the simpleness of it causes people to not believe it - BLOWBACK!
People expect unusual explanations/reasons for rare events. People have a hard time accepting that even very rare events can occur for the most mundane and natural of reasons.
Hard logic to argue with. I'm out of here today. Too many people unwilling to think outside of their own little boxes. From a purely emotional state I think it could be highly likely that some people have had enough and are finally taking matters into their own hands. Peace to you Chiang. While I don't always agree with you, at least you are always rational.
I think in your judgement of those who are a truly keeping their minds open to other possibilities betrays your insinuation that you yourself are the model of rational and reasonable thinking.
To reiterate my point, let’s hold judgement until the people we know we can rely on investigate.
>>"...your insinuation that you yourself are the model of rational and reasonable thinking."
I'm far from any model of rational and reasonable thinking. I know that because I keep discoving flaws and areas of improvement in my own thinking. One can't expect to arrive at any kind of truth or claim to be intellectually honest if they are ALSO not open to being wrong.
If enough verifiable evidence comes along that proves it is a FALSE FLAG - then I will be quite happy to be proven wrong, accept it, and hopefully learn from it for future scenarios.
I tend to think in terms of probabilities (especially bayesian probabilities - which takes into consideration prior probabilities, false positives and false negatives). To me, EVERYTHING is about probabilities - nothing is 100% black or 100% white - I detest binary thinking and prefer to get dirty with nuanced thinking. I'm also a non-comformist.
>>"To reiterate my point, let’s hold judgement until the people we know we can rely on investigate."
Sure - always a good idea - and that is a good attitude to have.
I state my opinions (after critically thinking with whatever information I have at that moment in time) and arrive at a 'conclusive thought/analysis/summary conclusion'. I don't expect people to hold the same opinions that I have. But what I find disconcerting - especially with conspiracy theorists - is that they EXPECT and NEED people to believe in THEIR theories.
What bothers me most is not that people hold different opinions - what bothers me is the LACK of sound logic and LACK of adequate critical thinking skills that goes into arriving at explanations of such theories - i.e. the thought process and the methodologies used. I have been guilty of the same 'lack of critical thinking' often in my past life. But ever since Covid started, I really worked hard on my logic/statistics & probability/media literacy/critical thinking skills so as to be able to make higher quality decisions and evaluations. And, IT IS A PROCESS - it is forever evolving - there is no end to how little we humans really know about us, the world, and the universe.
Anyways, I landed up saying way more than I wanted to.
A question for you. Disregarding this shooting do you believe Mossad would carry out murder of people sympathetic to Israel to further Israel’s agenda?
>>"do you believe Mossad would carry out murder of people sympathetic to Israel to further Israel’s agenda?"
Of course - 100%. Israel (and Mossad) is capable of things a thousand times worse that the 'murder of people sympathetic to Israel to further its agenda' - as evidenced by the enfolding genocide. Israel is capable of unimaginable EVIL.
Here is a book that gives some examples of what Israel/Mossad/etc. are capable of ->"Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel's Targeted Assassinations" by Ronen Berman (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33598223-rise-and-kill-first) -> details many assassinations that Israel has carried out for the U.S. Empire.
But 'being capable of something' is not a strong enough argument for people to assign the kind of probabilities they do to such events and jump to conclusions.
One difference between conspiracists and 'intellectually honest skeptics' is the quality of critical thinking skills and evidence-based reasoning - which is very difficult to find in the general public (America or otherwise).
Yes, I was surprised that a German Christian was working in an Israeli embassy at all then I remembered that there are Christian zionists(which to me is incompatible).
There's much more to this story, apart from the man being so willing to shout that he was doing it for Palestine and Gaza. Why hand them your conviction so soon, you're supposed to make them work for it.
Those were certainly my initial thoughts. Substitute “Rodriguez” for “Luigi”. A warning to IsraHell and its employees that it is THEY who have targets on their backs.
I have a feeling this won’t be the first of such incidences.
Of course, now the “special protection” for Jews will be increased tenfold. Funny how we still have Ku Klux Klan in this country, but no one is advocating special protection for Black Americans, or Hispanic, or Asian or gods forbid, Arab-Americans.
Only for the “chosen”. Will someone please hand me a barf bag?
Thank you Indu. The evilness of what Israel (and all its backers) have perpetrated not only on Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan AND the whole world would (maybe should?) make any normal person with normal human emotions BOIL with RAGE and DISGUST - the utter mendacity, depravity, ...I'm at a loss for words here...
This is a normal reaction by a person with normal emotions at what Israel and Zionists have wrought on the world.
Did you ever think that it takes time for the smoldering anger at injustice to burst into flame. This man has likely sacrificed his own life to a cause he believes in. Nobody comes to a conclusion like this lightly. It takes time and incredible courage.
Aaron Bushnell sacrificed his life to bring attention to the genocide a year ago in February 2024. Picking this particular day when Elias could have waited or done something earlier in the genocide, like Aaron did, is what makes this incident seem very fishy to me.
Nope - NO FALSE FLAG! This is ordinary, normal, humans doing ordinary, normal things (like assassinating Genocidal killers and murderers of babies, children, women, and more). This is a BRAVE INDIVIDUAL sacrificing his life for PALESTINE! He definitely has my respect!
There are going to be many more such events happening in many Western nations all over the world. This is BLOWBACK! It was inevitable. It was only a matter of time...
The world is NOT the same anymore...Genocidal Israel, Zionists, and their supporters have changed the world forever...may they reap what they sow!
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Let us remember what Israel did to Jeffery Epstein after his many years in their employ. Yeah, on its face it seems ridiculous... until... you can't come up with a better reason.
Let us recall what happened to Jack Ruby (Rubinstein a semi-high level member of Lansky's National Crime Syndicate).
It isn't like there are just two-sides to this story. There are dozens of organizations which might have set up a "false-flag".
"False Flag" only means that the real actors were someone other than the accused.
Who recalls Lee Harvey Oswald? Kennedy was hit from multiple directions.
Nope - too many conspiracy theorists on Caitlin's substack (and on Substack in general). This is BLOWBACK - plain and simple - just as 9/11 was blowback and Oct 7 was blowback.
There ya go again, ignoring the evidence that is so clear a child could see it.
9/11 was, in no way, "blow back". It was an Israeli* inspired false flag. Even the MSM was full of stories of how easy it was for the perpetrators to slip through US security..
If that were the only instance, perhaps I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.
But then there are the Tsarnaev brothers of the Boston Marathon bombing.
And JFK and RFK assassinations.
It isn't some "guy-off-the-street" that does this
Dude. The perp wrote an incredible 'manifesto' and shouted Free Palestine, Free Free Palestine when arrested. C'mon - Emerge from the rabbit hole.
https://www.nefariousrussians.com/p/cycles-of-violence
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/the-israel-embassy-shooter-manifesto
Not everything is a SCAD or false flag.
And how do you know that? Think they don't have to resources to make just about every publicly violent act done by their own hand? Israel cannot be trusted. On Oct 7, with Israels huge surveillance arsenal, they would have known there was going to be an insurgence. They are liars and looters and murderers. I'm talking about the regime not the people. But many of their people love all the killing too.
You're correct Denise. xoxo
Israel did not fucking do this, denise. Wake the fuck up.
"Not everything is a SCAD or false flag"? True, but Tom? So many things are. So what "he" wrote a manifesto. Those things are easy enough for forge. So what he shouted "Free Palestine". Have you read or watched "The Manchurian Candidate"? In the past 10 years alone since my home was stolen from me (foolishly purchased on native land) I have experienced corruption and criminality – and manipulation – on the part of all our "leaders", that even though it happened to me? I'm still stunned with incredulity!
>>"9/11 was, in no way, "blow back". It was an Israeli* inspired false flag."
HaHa - did you not read my comment elsewhere on this article that "Substack is FULL of conspiracy theorists and unfortunately so is Caitlin's substack"?
I'm not going to argue conspiracy theories with Conspiracy Theorists - there is a psychology behind it. Conspiracy theorists NEED to believe in such theories to help them make sense of a senseless world. This NEED to believe in such theories is so strong that it becomes a part of their core - regardless of the evidence, facts, whatever.
You are welcome to waste your life chasing down conspiracy theories - they seem to help you make sense of the world and keep you sane - so go for it - stay emotionally healthy - use whatever coping mechanism works. I prefer reality (no matter how uncomfortable it may be for me). The world doesn't need to 'have to' make sense to me - I am ok with the randomness, the chaosness, and all the coincidences in the world - everything doesn't need to have a reason or an explanation - everything doesn't need to have a solution or an answer. I'm comfortable with unknowns and uncertainty.
Most conspiracy theorists are uncomfortable with randomness, lack of causality, lack of coherence, lack of patterns, and lack of definite answers and explanations that are all too common in a universe with more questions than answers.
Go ahead, play The Walter Cronkite role in promoting the conclusions of the Warren commission.
Interject your snob appeal about how stupid I am because I need to make sense of "a senseless world".
Fuk-an-A I want it to make sense and I have to question why you don't.
Talk about false-flags, here you are right in front of us providing us with excuses to turn away from the obvious that is right before us.
>>"Interject your snob appeal about how stupid"
Believing in conspiracy theories has NOTHING (or very little) to do with one's intelligence. But you would know that if you were well versed on the subject.
Dude, believe whatever makes you comfortable. Why does it matter to you what I believe or what I think?
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the labor of thinking."
– Joshua Reynolds
"Most people would sooner die than think. In fact, they do."
– Betrand Russell
The issue Chang, is not my belief (amply demonstrated) that the very rich and powerful are actively working to maintain their position to the rest of humanity's detriment. The issue is your automatic flat rejection – in totality – of the thesis.
I give up.
>>"The issue is your automatic flat rejection"
The way I have expressed myself (i.e. my automatic flat rejection) is not automatic (though it seems that way). I don't intend to bore people here (or elsewhere) with the nitty-gritty details that goes into thinking before I arrive at conclusions.
Hence, people don't get to see all the steps (and effort) that my mind makes in critically thinking about the situation - they only see the end result - which is the conclusion. Hence the impression that my response is "automatic".
Critical thinking is NEVER automatic - it is deliberative, cognitively demanding, and energy draining (for the specifics of this I refer you to Daniel Kahneman's book - Thinking Fast and Slow). But people only ever get to observe the end results (i.e. the conclusions) of the though process - hence the appearance of "automatic or haphazard or incomplete" thinking.
If I were to explain all the details of WHY the probabilites are exceedingly low (low enough to discard the false-flag hypothesis) for this event to be a 'FALSE FLAG' event, it would take several pages - and NO ONE is interested in that (or has the patience or time for it). No one here is interested in reading detailed, researched, analysis - of this or anything else. That is ONE of the problems/limitations of online discussion arenas/spaces - it doesn't give one the depth needed to really examine discourses in adequate detail.
Oh you don't think conspiracies happen? You're giving us a profile of yourself.
"Rich and powerful people don't get together and make plans! You're a kook! You're a 'Conspiracy Buff'"
– George Carlin
Sorry Chang, but for me, especially 9/11? Anyone who uses the term "Conspiracy Theory" in any context, for me is immediately suspect. "Conspiracy Theory" was a notion created by the CIA in the wake of the Warren Commission's grotesque conclusions regarding the first Kennedy Assassination. I'm aware of Cass Sunstein's 2008 paper on "Conspiracy Theory"; I was unable to read it, it was so biased and contemptuous of the mere possibility. You might do well to read "Conspiracy Theory in America by Lance deHaven-Smith" and the more recent "180 Degrees: Unlearn the Lies You've Been Taught to Believe" by Feargus O'Connor Greenwood. The creatures running our shared shitshow treat "reality" like a game of chess, they're always planning 4-5 moves ahead. The one thing in our favor? They're not actually all that clever... 🤔🙄
Oh boy! Another conspiracy theorist? Why am I not surprised?
The CIA coining "conspiracy theory" has alread been discussed (and debunked) here -> https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/thoughts-on-the-israeli-embassy-staff/comment/119448193
If you're serious (at an intellectual level) about understanding conspiracy theories, conspiracy culture, conspiracy psychology, and more - then I suggest you take at a list of some of the books I mentioned here ->https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/thoughts-on-the-israeli-embassy-staff/comment/119460442
BTW, it takes knowledge, critical thinking skills, and effort to DISTINGUISH the FALSE conspiracies from the TRUE conspiracies (yes, there are a few that are true ->https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/thoughts-on-the-israeli-embassy-staff/comment/119460442).
There are also different TYPES of conspiracy theories. Here is an interesting look at some of the different types/categories -> [https://conspiracychart.com]
In retrospect the silence in this morning's news could indicate that they (Israel) are now scared. False flag or not it will probably mark the beginning of a string of attacks on Israeli institutions. As ye sow so shall ye reap. I suspect that the US could be next for these attacks.
This happened right after a few European and British politicians turned on them. Its always the sympathy play with them, they get none from me. Any Zionist or their servants are fair game in my book, and that includes this "happy" fucking couple.
Now you have totally lost me. You use "conspiracy theorists" and "conspiracy theory" exactly how the CIA initially intended its use when the term was coined after JFK. I even suspect you now as some sort of controlled opposition after previously agreeing with many of your comments.
To summarize: No, this murder was not part of a Mossad conspiracy or false flag, but 9/11 almost assuredly was. What do you know about the Munich Olympics, BTW? Do you think "Black September" was a Palestinian operation? If so, I can recommend some reading materials.
I don't mean to use Conspircy Theorists in a pejorative way. Conspiracy Theorists are usually quite intelligent people - they take great effort at seeking out patterns and attempting to connect-the-dots.
Also, there are several conspiracy theories that ARE true.
>>" I even suspect you now as some sort of controlled opposition after previously agreeing with many of your comments."
That is more conspiratorial thinking on your part.
Like I to said to someone else, I'm not going to argue individual conspiracy theoies with you. It is ALWAYS a time-waster and counter-productive.
I could recommend many books for you to read (on conspiracy theories and conspiratorial thinking and WHY people believe conspiracies), but I am quite confident that you will not read them. If you decide to change your mind, let me know.
" did you not read my comment elsewhere on this article that "Substack is FULL of conspiracy theorists and unfortunately so is Caitlin's substack"? - HA HA !
https://vtforeignpolicy.com/2025/04/zionist-israel-still-suppresses-trump-release-of-jfk-9-11-and-jeffrey-epstein-files/
So you get DISTRACTED that easily by such narratives that appeal to your confirmation biases?
And you LIKE your OWN comments too? That is NOT a good look.
idk, maybe this is going a bit out of focus? (no offense).
Of course it's going out of focus - it always does - anytime 'conspiracy theorists' crawl out of the woodwork (which is often on Caitlin's substack).
Cute conspiracy theory.
Here you come again, tonsils flapping
No 9/11 was not done by Muslims. Oh boy. Do you even know that Building 7 went down the same way on that day? Do you know it was reported by the BBC 20 minutes before it went down? Oh there is so much more.
No offense, Denise, but I usually ignore ALL your comments - different wavelengths. I apologize.
No I can tell you're closed minded. Like I said earlier, you're giving a profile of yourself for all to see.
Whatever you say Denise.
Explain to us what happened to WTC-7.
This should be good.
Why should I? You're not going to believe me whatever I say. This is the basis of conspiratorial thinking - no amount of evidence or facts or truth dissuades a conspiracy theorist from abandoning their theories. On rare occasions, some intellectually honest people DO manage to change their minds.
Conspiracy theorists weave and weave and weave - their egos are too tightly tied to their theories unfortunately, thus making the 'denying of their conspiracy theories' a personal matter.
I agree Chang. There is no reason to believe this wasn’t just a frustrated, angry citizen, much like Mangione. This is to be expected. It is going to increase as the oppression increases. The Zionist genocide has been taken advantage of by many governments (most notably the USA and UK) to introduce authoritarian, pre-Nazi oppressions. Just as in Europe in the 1940s, internal citizens and groups will form a resistance. Israel is certainly capable of a false flag event like this but my guess is that Mangione and Rodriguez are early examples of what is to come. As the resistance matures you’ll see more attacks on the politicians and oligarchs.
For those who worry these individual acts will give the "fascists the ammo they need to come after us", the fascists don't need "ammo". Coming after those they label as "other" and those who are like them but disagree with them is in the fascist DNA. Biden, Trump, Sunak, and Starmer didn't need events like this to introduce legislation and tactics to suppress peaceful protests. They are coming for us; we should be getting ready rather than condemning individual acts or debating conspiracy theories.
>>"Coming after those they label as "other" and those who are like them but disagree with them is in the fascist DNA. Biden, Trump, Sunak, and Starmer didn't need events like this to introduce legislation and tactics to suppress peaceful protests."
EXACTLY! 💯
I disapprove of your use of the pejorative "conspiracy theorists" because it is a CIA coined phrase designed specifically to de-legitimize critical discussion of SCADs (state crimes against democracy).
That said, I 100% agree with you that this was not a false flag. There is too much evidence otherwise and people are not savvy enough to parse the information from the noise and bullshit.
>>" because it is a CIA coined phrase"
Tom, please get your facts straight. The term Conspiracy Theorist and conspiracy theory have been around long before the creation of the CIA.
(1) ‘Conspiracy theory’ coined long before JFK assassination [https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-conspiracy-theory-jfk-941578119864]
(2) https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/03/16/did-the-cia-invent-the-term-conspiracy-theory/
(3) https://theconversation.com/theres-a-conspiracy-theory-that-the-cia-invented-the-term-conspiracy-theory-heres-why-132117 (same content as the previous link)
(4) Conspiracy Theory: The Nineteenth-Century Prehistory of a Twentieth-Century Concept [https://academic.oup.com/book/25369/chapter-abstract/192453115] from the book: "Conspiracy Theories & the People Who Believe Them"
(5) A critical conceptualization of conspiracy theory [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-8675.12683] ->an interesting article around thinking about conspiracies and what exactly is a conspiracy theory.
Conspiracy theories thrive in societies in upheaval, with poor education systems, disaffected populations, and low social capital. But experts can’t simply tell people to stop believing lies. Rather, society has to put people in a better position to see the truth. This is part of what Caitlin does with her Substack articles.
And remember - conspiracy theories are NOT unique to the U.S. They are global.
You're quoting Snopes? LOL!
Jeez, you're trolling me now?
https://www.coreysdigs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CIA_ConspiracyTheory1.png
Dude - irrelevant.
Do you understand things like "Google analytics" or previous means of determining the frequency of the use of certain terms and phrases?
If so find me a dozen uses of the term "conspiracy theory" in ANY year, combined, prior to 1964.
I'll wait.
Tom, you're not interested in the truth to the same level as you are interested in believing the theories you wish to believe. There is NO END to the excuses, twists, deflections, connections, irrelevant information, etc. that a conspiracy theorist would go through to defend their beliefs. Your comments are PROOF of that.
LOL. AP? Snopes?
The dispatch was produced in response to a Freedom of Information Act request by the New York Times in 1976.
The dispatch states:
2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization.
The aim of this dispatch is to provide materialcountering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.
3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the [conspiracy] question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active addresses are requested:
a. To discuss the publicity problem with and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors) , pointing out that the [official investigation of the relevant event] made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by … propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.
b. To employ propaganda assets to and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (II) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories.
4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:
a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider.
b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent–and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) …
c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc.
d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other.
f. As to charges that the Commission’s report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.
g. Such vague accusations as that “more than ten people have died mysteriously” can always be explained in some natural way
5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission’s Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.
>>"LOL. AP? Snopes?"
That is the First sign of weak critical thinking - to look at sources first instead of critically parsing the information. Sources should be looked at for bias, but the information withing should be analyzed and though about critically FIRST.
Otherwise, what you are simply doing is displaying CONFIRMATION BIAS. You can simply deny any sources that go against your confirmation biases (as you are doing with Snopes currently). The left does this, the right does this, liberals do this, conservatives to this.
Are you ready to challenge your confirmation baises? And think critically? Are you open to reading (at at intellectual and academic level) about Conspiracism?
You seem to be threatened by facts/evidence that go against your beliefs - as evidenced by your long-winded 'detailed' comment (and attempt) at trying to find flaws in the above mentioned sources. That is the normal behavior/response of someone when they are faced with facts that question their deeply held beliefs. Congratulations - you are normal.
False flag or not, I see this setting the pro Palestinian movement back and give Trump, Rubio & the other cabinet fascists the ammo they need to come after "us" . . . .
That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is as an expansion of awareness of what the world has come to.
Things CANNOT go back to how they were before this Genocide. The world has FOREVER changed. Much about the future is going to be unpredictable and uncomfortable.
All I know is that the Genocidal state of Israel MUST BE DESTROYED (in one way or another), and MUST CEASE TO EXIST in its current form...
If you yell loud enough, I'll be convinced.
How come " as 9/11 was blowback " ? !
This is blowback from humans that are appalled by the Genocide conducted by Israel. There is MUCH MORE blowback (of similar kinds AND worse) yet to come for Israel.
Similarly, there is MUCH BLOWBACK yet to be received by the U.S. Empire for its decades it imperialist policies.
"Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire" by Chalmers Johnson (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40709.Blowback)
I also suggest going through the rest of the books in the "American Empire Project" [https://www.goodreads.com/series/324809-american-empire-project]
Similarly, Israel has had a huge hand in U.S. Imperialism ("Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel's Targeted Assassinations" by Ronen Bergman) [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33598223-rise-and-kill-first]
It is only a matter of time before ORDINARY HUMANS (and the Global South) do with comes naturally to humans - revenge and retaliation - for all the oppression, exploitation, imperialism, terrorism, etc. suffered by ordinary people (and the Global South) at the hands of the U.S. Empire and Israel.
Like I said, these are the consequences of BLOWBACK.
Respectfully cannot agree with you. We don’t know enough.
And he could have been a pro Palestinian that was set up by Mossad…
Interesting that one of the people killed was a Christian, don’t you think?
Let’s see if they actually investigate this thoroughly.
We simply don’t know.
The best I can say is it’s 50-50 odds.
But there are a lot more Mossad operatives and operations then there are people in the world willing to do this. But there are probably a lot of desperate people in the world who could be coerced into doing such a thing: threats to family, psychological tactics, black mail, monetary reward…..Mossad do all of this.
So, I feel I’m being more then fair stating the odds at 50-50 as the probability seem much higher on the Mossad side, given notice, past behaviour.
Until now, the only Jews killed in anti-semitic attacks in America since the at in Gaza have been other Jews who were mistaken for Palestinians. Many Palestinians in the other hand have been attacked and shot by islamaphobes.
Just keep an open mind is all im saying, and wait to see what the independent journalists uncover
He could have been many things. The fact is none of us know. What you should be asking yourselves on each and every theory put forward is what if it's true? I'm not talking about one theory. I'm talking about all of them. Question them all critically. Do not be afraid to change your mind. Is this or that theory worthy or is it just a distraction. Keep your minds open especially to the fact that you could be wrong. If you think you've never been wrong you are a fool.
You don't need to agree with me. One needs to think critically. And one should keep an open mind - but not such an open mind that their brains fall out and they start believing in normal events as being false flags and conspiratorial events.
>>"Interesting that one of the people killed was a Christian, don’t you think?"
Irrelevant. This is extraneous info. This is how conspiracy theories work - EVERY insignificant detail is given paramount importance so as to 'connect all the dots' in some kind of 'grand plan', 'grand conspiracy'.
There is a very simple explanation for this. In fact, it is so simple that the simpleness of it causes people to not believe it - BLOWBACK!
People expect unusual explanations/reasons for rare events. People have a hard time accepting that even very rare events can occur for the most mundane and natural of reasons.
You don't say anything original do you?
Any more of this trolling and I'm inclined to block you.
Hard logic to argue with. I'm out of here today. Too many people unwilling to think outside of their own little boxes. From a purely emotional state I think it could be highly likely that some people have had enough and are finally taking matters into their own hands. Peace to you Chiang. While I don't always agree with you, at least you are always rational.
I think in your judgement of those who are a truly keeping their minds open to other possibilities betrays your insinuation that you yourself are the model of rational and reasonable thinking.
To reiterate my point, let’s hold judgement until the people we know we can rely on investigate.
I appreciate your comment.
>>"...your insinuation that you yourself are the model of rational and reasonable thinking."
I'm far from any model of rational and reasonable thinking. I know that because I keep discoving flaws and areas of improvement in my own thinking. One can't expect to arrive at any kind of truth or claim to be intellectually honest if they are ALSO not open to being wrong.
If enough verifiable evidence comes along that proves it is a FALSE FLAG - then I will be quite happy to be proven wrong, accept it, and hopefully learn from it for future scenarios.
I tend to think in terms of probabilities (especially bayesian probabilities - which takes into consideration prior probabilities, false positives and false negatives). To me, EVERYTHING is about probabilities - nothing is 100% black or 100% white - I detest binary thinking and prefer to get dirty with nuanced thinking. I'm also a non-comformist.
>>"To reiterate my point, let’s hold judgement until the people we know we can rely on investigate."
Sure - always a good idea - and that is a good attitude to have.
I state my opinions (after critically thinking with whatever information I have at that moment in time) and arrive at a 'conclusive thought/analysis/summary conclusion'. I don't expect people to hold the same opinions that I have. But what I find disconcerting - especially with conspiracy theorists - is that they EXPECT and NEED people to believe in THEIR theories.
What bothers me most is not that people hold different opinions - what bothers me is the LACK of sound logic and LACK of adequate critical thinking skills that goes into arriving at explanations of such theories - i.e. the thought process and the methodologies used. I have been guilty of the same 'lack of critical thinking' often in my past life. But ever since Covid started, I really worked hard on my logic/statistics & probability/media literacy/critical thinking skills so as to be able to make higher quality decisions and evaluations. And, IT IS A PROCESS - it is forever evolving - there is no end to how little we humans really know about us, the world, and the universe.
Anyways, I landed up saying way more than I wanted to.
A question for you. Disregarding this shooting do you believe Mossad would carry out murder of people sympathetic to Israel to further Israel’s agenda?
>>"do you believe Mossad would carry out murder of people sympathetic to Israel to further Israel’s agenda?"
Of course - 100%. Israel (and Mossad) is capable of things a thousand times worse that the 'murder of people sympathetic to Israel to further its agenda' - as evidenced by the enfolding genocide. Israel is capable of unimaginable EVIL.
Here is a book that gives some examples of what Israel/Mossad/etc. are capable of ->"Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel's Targeted Assassinations" by Ronen Berman (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33598223-rise-and-kill-first) -> details many assassinations that Israel has carried out for the U.S. Empire.
But 'being capable of something' is not a strong enough argument for people to assign the kind of probabilities they do to such events and jump to conclusions.
One difference between conspiracists and 'intellectually honest skeptics' is the quality of critical thinking skills and evidence-based reasoning - which is very difficult to find in the general public (America or otherwise).
We completely agree. And thank you for the links.
Yes, I was surprised that a German Christian was working in an Israeli embassy at all then I remembered that there are Christian zionists(which to me is incompatible).
There's much more to this story, apart from the man being so willing to shout that he was doing it for Palestine and Gaza. Why hand them your conviction so soon, you're supposed to make them work for it.
Chang
Those were certainly my initial thoughts. Substitute “Rodriguez” for “Luigi”. A warning to IsraHell and its employees that it is THEY who have targets on their backs.
I have a feeling this won’t be the first of such incidences.
Of course, now the “special protection” for Jews will be increased tenfold. Funny how we still have Ku Klux Klan in this country, but no one is advocating special protection for Black Americans, or Hispanic, or Asian or gods forbid, Arab-Americans.
Only for the “chosen”. Will someone please hand me a barf bag?
Chang, I tend to agree with you.
Thank you Indu. The evilness of what Israel (and all its backers) have perpetrated not only on Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan AND the whole world would (maybe should?) make any normal person with normal human emotions BOIL with RAGE and DISGUST - the utter mendacity, depravity, ...I'm at a loss for words here...
This is a normal reaction by a person with normal emotions at what Israel and Zionists have wrought on the world.
It's possible but it didn't happen while the long-drawn out genocide was going on. Israel cannot be trusted and that ought to be a given.
Did you ever think that it takes time for the smoldering anger at injustice to burst into flame. This man has likely sacrificed his own life to a cause he believes in. Nobody comes to a conclusion like this lightly. It takes time and incredible courage.
Aaron Bushnell sacrificed his life to bring attention to the genocide a year ago in February 2024. Picking this particular day when Elias could have waited or done something earlier in the genocide, like Aaron did, is what makes this incident seem very fishy to me.
NO Chang.
Get into the real world.
This IS a 'false flag.'
YOU Chang are not following the narrative: Zionists know exactly what they are doing and you are being duped.
Yeah sure - join the herd - why not?
They came from thousands of miles apart to DC and found love...
https://www.activistpost.com/d-c-terror-shooting-psyop-by-way-of-deception-thou-shalt-make-war-mossad/
Unconvinced.