I don't know what it was, that's why I said "more than likely". You may be sick of labels and if that's a comfort to your liberal proclivities, all well for you. But what do you call the person, the nation, the ideology that comes to shred or starve your child. What do you call the person who says elementary school children are necessary sacrifices to protect the "God given" right to bear arms, when sick teenager comes to your child's school? What do you call someone who encourages people to take up arms against your transgender child? If you won't "label" them, how do you deal with them?
good point - on a bad day i would definitely call him a monster. And I’m definitely a liberal but not the kind you think. I would just ask that in the wake of a man being murdered, a man who was extreme in his point of view. Maybe we should soften just a little and remember that Charlie Kirke was ignorant, he dropped out of college, he had an extreme point of view which he believed in. He could have changed and imagine his energy if it got behind something good. There is always a chance for redemption - even in the monsters. He has children.
He wasn't just "extreme in his point of view". He was promoting violence, disguised as debate, against anyone who wasn't a white Christian. I don't know that all psychopaths can be redeemed, but had Charlie Kirk shown some contrition for his hateful, hate-filled words, had he truly listened to those arguing the other side rather than just putting them down (note his non-answers to the last couple of questions put to him), then I might think he was on the road to redemption. He did none of that and right up to the unexpected end, he was promoting hate and violence against trans people.
For what it's worth, there are many psychopaths in charge that I don't think are capable of redemption, based on their histories. For example: Epstein, Trump, Netanyahu, Starmer, Macron, Carney, Biden, just to name a few from the "civilized" west.
so what are you saying Ron - shoot them all. Are you judge and jury? You have all the answers……hate begets hate. As Angela Davis said, when we choose violence (no matter who is choosing it) we are inevitably headed in the wrong direction. I hope you have a good day.
I'm not saying shoot them all, but I will reserve my sympathy for those who are truly victims. I also won't condemn those who feel so angry, and frustrated that they are driven to killing the "monsters". The establishment kills people all the time, including the liberal establishment, through induced and enforced poverty, deprivation, oppression right here in our own country (Canada in my case), and even that doesn't compare to the killing they do through complicity, in non-white countries like Palestine.
Unfortunately, violence does begat violence but that trope is only totted out when it's the left that uses violence. I didn't hear any liberals blaming Israel for 100 years of violence as the cause of Palestine resistance breaking out on October 7, 2023, but they were quick to say Palestinian violence was not the answer.
Ideally, we could work our way through differences by debate, but that's not how the extremist works. In the west, for a couple of hundred years we've had a political system which we've called "liberal democracy" (it has been neither) where differences were debated and "settled" though "free elections" (again, not true) but in the current world order, the oligarchs are not happy with even that. Thus, we see a genocide in Palestine, labelling as terrorist and organization that opposes genocide in the UK, and, well, the USA.
If the left (or liberals) eschew violence all together, they will lose. Many, many millions of people, including children, have died because of that. Many millions more are on the verge of dying.
I have often thought about whether I could kill someone and my inclination is that I could not, even the most heinous monster. But when I think about that monster doing something to my late wife, I know I could kill for that. Beyond that, I'm lucky enough to have never been in that position and old enough that I probably never will be. But I'm not going to judge those who do kill monsters.
I disagree, Ghandi didn’t use violence, Mandela didn’t use violence. In Argentina, Spain and Chile violence was not how fascism was defeated - it was through the collapse of their own bad government, and the call for democracy and elections. You can complain and accuse Canada, “the liberal establishment” all you want but maybe try living in Brazil where there is no social system to protect the people or Russia which is run by gangsters and uses its people for a meat grinder war (Both have amazing people but they have it way harder then those in a social liberal society). We are are all trying to figure it out. We make up our governments, all of us - not just the liberal elite. The Liberal Elite just wants to get on with their day, love their family and put breakfast on the table like everyone else. If you want their beliefs to change, if you want them to understand a situation differently then you need to communicate with them. Most people do not want to murder an innocent child in their heart of hearts - they don’t.
There were movements in India that did use violence despite Ghandi's pacifism. Mandela did use violence, that's how he first got arrested, and he was a member of the ANC, an armed resistance. Fascism did not just collapse in Argentina, Spain, and Chile. There were armed resistance movements that put pressure on the fascist governments and their supporters in the west. The armed resistance did not, alone, get rid of the fascists (except in Germany) but it played a big part and at least as big a part as boycotts and peaceful protest. I think you are wrong about the liberal elite. Sure they want what you say but they are also prepared to deny those same things to the majority of people if it means they stay comfortable. Comparing Canada to Brazil or Russia is an invalid argument. Just because Canada is not as bad as Russia doesn't mean we should not oppose the fascism that is on our doorstep in the form of neoliberalism and austerity budgets. It's neoliberalism and austerity today but the writing is on the wall and fascism is on its way, even in Canada. We are foolish to believe otherwise and equally foolish to think it won't be as oppressive as any other fascism has always been.
Finally, while most people do not want to murder an innocent child (what child is not innocent), there are those who do (as we can see in Palestine), there are those who are prepared to assist and abide the murder (as most western nations do), there are those who are prepared to propagandize for the murders (as western politicians and media do), and there are those who are prepared to turn a blind eye and pretend they do not see. There is no legitimate excuse for any of those but they'll never be held accountable and they'll go on in their "respectable" work even if all Palestinians are murdered.
I don't know what it was, that's why I said "more than likely". You may be sick of labels and if that's a comfort to your liberal proclivities, all well for you. But what do you call the person, the nation, the ideology that comes to shred or starve your child. What do you call the person who says elementary school children are necessary sacrifices to protect the "God given" right to bear arms, when sick teenager comes to your child's school? What do you call someone who encourages people to take up arms against your transgender child? If you won't "label" them, how do you deal with them?
good point - on a bad day i would definitely call him a monster. And I’m definitely a liberal but not the kind you think. I would just ask that in the wake of a man being murdered, a man who was extreme in his point of view. Maybe we should soften just a little and remember that Charlie Kirke was ignorant, he dropped out of college, he had an extreme point of view which he believed in. He could have changed and imagine his energy if it got behind something good. There is always a chance for redemption - even in the monsters. He has children.
He wasn't just "extreme in his point of view". He was promoting violence, disguised as debate, against anyone who wasn't a white Christian. I don't know that all psychopaths can be redeemed, but had Charlie Kirk shown some contrition for his hateful, hate-filled words, had he truly listened to those arguing the other side rather than just putting them down (note his non-answers to the last couple of questions put to him), then I might think he was on the road to redemption. He did none of that and right up to the unexpected end, he was promoting hate and violence against trans people.
For what it's worth, there are many psychopaths in charge that I don't think are capable of redemption, based on their histories. For example: Epstein, Trump, Netanyahu, Starmer, Macron, Carney, Biden, just to name a few from the "civilized" west.
so what are you saying Ron - shoot them all. Are you judge and jury? You have all the answers……hate begets hate. As Angela Davis said, when we choose violence (no matter who is choosing it) we are inevitably headed in the wrong direction. I hope you have a good day.
I'm not saying shoot them all, but I will reserve my sympathy for those who are truly victims. I also won't condemn those who feel so angry, and frustrated that they are driven to killing the "monsters". The establishment kills people all the time, including the liberal establishment, through induced and enforced poverty, deprivation, oppression right here in our own country (Canada in my case), and even that doesn't compare to the killing they do through complicity, in non-white countries like Palestine.
Unfortunately, violence does begat violence but that trope is only totted out when it's the left that uses violence. I didn't hear any liberals blaming Israel for 100 years of violence as the cause of Palestine resistance breaking out on October 7, 2023, but they were quick to say Palestinian violence was not the answer.
Ideally, we could work our way through differences by debate, but that's not how the extremist works. In the west, for a couple of hundred years we've had a political system which we've called "liberal democracy" (it has been neither) where differences were debated and "settled" though "free elections" (again, not true) but in the current world order, the oligarchs are not happy with even that. Thus, we see a genocide in Palestine, labelling as terrorist and organization that opposes genocide in the UK, and, well, the USA.
If the left (or liberals) eschew violence all together, they will lose. Many, many millions of people, including children, have died because of that. Many millions more are on the verge of dying.
I have often thought about whether I could kill someone and my inclination is that I could not, even the most heinous monster. But when I think about that monster doing something to my late wife, I know I could kill for that. Beyond that, I'm lucky enough to have never been in that position and old enough that I probably never will be. But I'm not going to judge those who do kill monsters.
👏👏 Well said Ron! Excellent response. Thank you!
I disagree, Ghandi didn’t use violence, Mandela didn’t use violence. In Argentina, Spain and Chile violence was not how fascism was defeated - it was through the collapse of their own bad government, and the call for democracy and elections. You can complain and accuse Canada, “the liberal establishment” all you want but maybe try living in Brazil where there is no social system to protect the people or Russia which is run by gangsters and uses its people for a meat grinder war (Both have amazing people but they have it way harder then those in a social liberal society). We are are all trying to figure it out. We make up our governments, all of us - not just the liberal elite. The Liberal Elite just wants to get on with their day, love their family and put breakfast on the table like everyone else. If you want their beliefs to change, if you want them to understand a situation differently then you need to communicate with them. Most people do not want to murder an innocent child in their heart of hearts - they don’t.
There were movements in India that did use violence despite Ghandi's pacifism. Mandela did use violence, that's how he first got arrested, and he was a member of the ANC, an armed resistance. Fascism did not just collapse in Argentina, Spain, and Chile. There were armed resistance movements that put pressure on the fascist governments and their supporters in the west. The armed resistance did not, alone, get rid of the fascists (except in Germany) but it played a big part and at least as big a part as boycotts and peaceful protest. I think you are wrong about the liberal elite. Sure they want what you say but they are also prepared to deny those same things to the majority of people if it means they stay comfortable. Comparing Canada to Brazil or Russia is an invalid argument. Just because Canada is not as bad as Russia doesn't mean we should not oppose the fascism that is on our doorstep in the form of neoliberalism and austerity budgets. It's neoliberalism and austerity today but the writing is on the wall and fascism is on its way, even in Canada. We are foolish to believe otherwise and equally foolish to think it won't be as oppressive as any other fascism has always been.
Finally, while most people do not want to murder an innocent child (what child is not innocent), there are those who do (as we can see in Palestine), there are those who are prepared to assist and abide the murder (as most western nations do), there are those who are prepared to propagandize for the murders (as western politicians and media do), and there are those who are prepared to turn a blind eye and pretend they do not see. There is no legitimate excuse for any of those but they'll never be held accountable and they'll go on in their "respectable" work even if all Palestinians are murdered.
Here's a great article that really says it all about how we should view Charlie Kirk and his means of death. https://lidijanagulov.substack.com/p/tolerance-for-the-intolerant-the?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email-restack-comment&r=pris7&triedRedirect=true