I think the point of Varoufakis's idea is that if you interact with modern internet systems you cannot avoid giving away information that can be used against you. I'm not sure there are any candidates to vote for who are not capitalists - but then he also implies that the notion of 'capitalism' itself no longer applies.
>>"but then he also implies that the notion of 'capitalism' itself no longer applies."
This is where I completely disagree with him. I actually read his "Technofeudalism" book, and was quite disappointed (compared to his other book "Talking to my daughter about the Economy" which was excellent).
I find this whole "technofeudalism" framing to be more of a "marketing" ploy and "coinage of new terms" more to draw attention to Varoufakis and his (not so original) idea, rather than any NEW form of capitalism.
>>"if you interact with modern internet systems you cannot avoid giving away information that can be used against you."
NOTHING new here. We all knew that since before Edward Snowden. Anyone who didn't must have been sleeping under a rock.
I think it's the linking of the two aspects that is interesting - the 'feudal' bit - i.e. the very extreme skewing of where power lies, through the distorted distribution of money, enabling ever more manufactured consent, diminishes our ability to vote for different options. And on the tech side, we are becoming more like peasants than wage slaves by the change from being paid in money which you can freely exchange for goods to where we will be paid in electronic money, bitcoin or even something like amazon coin whereby our spending can be restricted to certain outlets, limiting our ability to avoid them - the old 'company store' model writ large.
I understand his arguement, but there's nothing new (even about the linking aspect).
Example: customer loyalty points, store points, repeat customer discounts, and so many other examples (including discounts for company employees).
People still buy using REAL money (one has to purchase or mine cryptocurrencies using REAL money before they can spend it). People still buy REAL (material) products and varied services (in different forms, including digital). Now, instead of buying the old fashioned way, people are buying online. Again - nothing new.
Also, what percentage of the global population does/behaves the way Technofeudalism describes? A still quite small percentage. How many people REALLY own Ring devices or Alexa, etc. globally? A minority of the population.
I think he failed in comparing the present circumstances/behavior to feudal behavior.
What Varoufakis describes is just another form of exchange of value WITHIN the system of Capitalism. So we do it on online platforms (Amazon, Alibaba, Walmart, Apple Store, Android Store, spotify, netflix, whatever). So we let these platforms/devices give us suggestions based on our preferences. So these platforms use our data to guide our purchasing habits. Advertising does the same thing (eg. online ads). In fact, the revenue model for these "so-called cloud companies" is primarily Advertising (Google, Meta and other social media companies, even Amazon to a certain extent).
Varoufakis is desperately trying to convince us that what we see happening is something NEW. It's not. He uses all kinds of examples to make us think that the system has changed (from Capitalism to Technofeudalism). It hasn't. Yes, we do have MORE models of "exchange value behavior" within Capitalism, but it's still Capitalism.
I am not as smart or articulate as you guys and yet I am wondering if i sense something missing from this conversation: it isn’t just about advertising and consumerism - ‘it’ being our use of/ reliance on the internet and all the data that is exchanged there; we are being shaped beyond what we buy, and even beyond what/ how we think and come to ‘know’ what we know. our choices in an ai-dominated world will become more and more limited and thereby our agency further and further removed from us. can you get what i’m laying down and maybe even articulate it better than I did? does it matter if it happens under capitalism or feudalism? It does, I imagine, in the sense that use of language matters, but let us not lose track of what is happening, which is further loss of agency. I do think this is NEW in scale and we might be on some sort of brink.
Tori, "further loss of agency" will happen regardless of AI. AI has been over-hyped to infinity (on the good side and the bad side).
We (the 99%) have ALWAYS been shaped (coerced, propagandized, etc.) by TPTB (1%) into behaving a certain way (even when they was no consumerism) so that society can be maintained/controlled to preserve the status quo favorable to the 1%.
As technology progresses, the tools available to do this (population control/behavior modification) get more sophisticated. The "power elite" (i.e. 1%) then employ these tools (in addition to what they already have in their toolbox) to maintain the unjust status quo. AI is just the most recent "tool" for this. (of course AI is a lot more than a "tool" - but in the context that we are talking - TPTB will be weaponising AI for their own advantages/purposes).
>>"I do think this is NEW in scale and we might be on some sort of brink"
As stated above, EVERY "new technology" has multiple purposes and can be used for good AND bad. As history shows, every such "major new technology" increases the scope/scale of application on the 99%. Hence, this phenomenon is NOT NEW, simply the next iteration. Also, AI is not new (AI research started in the 1960s).
Should you fear the technology? IMHO - No. But you SHOULD FEAR the people that will wield it to gain more power and continue the oppression and exploitation of others. Hence the need to continue to fight and resist them (using conscious decisions about how/where we spend our time/money/renergy/resources/etc. and being conscious of who benefits and who loses by the way we make our decisions).
I think the point of Varoufakis's idea is that if you interact with modern internet systems you cannot avoid giving away information that can be used against you. I'm not sure there are any candidates to vote for who are not capitalists - but then he also implies that the notion of 'capitalism' itself no longer applies.
>>"but then he also implies that the notion of 'capitalism' itself no longer applies."
This is where I completely disagree with him. I actually read his "Technofeudalism" book, and was quite disappointed (compared to his other book "Talking to my daughter about the Economy" which was excellent).
I find this whole "technofeudalism" framing to be more of a "marketing" ploy and "coinage of new terms" more to draw attention to Varoufakis and his (not so original) idea, rather than any NEW form of capitalism.
>>"if you interact with modern internet systems you cannot avoid giving away information that can be used against you."
NOTHING new here. We all knew that since before Edward Snowden. Anyone who didn't must have been sleeping under a rock.
I think it's the linking of the two aspects that is interesting - the 'feudal' bit - i.e. the very extreme skewing of where power lies, through the distorted distribution of money, enabling ever more manufactured consent, diminishes our ability to vote for different options. And on the tech side, we are becoming more like peasants than wage slaves by the change from being paid in money which you can freely exchange for goods to where we will be paid in electronic money, bitcoin or even something like amazon coin whereby our spending can be restricted to certain outlets, limiting our ability to avoid them - the old 'company store' model writ large.
I understand his arguement, but there's nothing new (even about the linking aspect).
Example: customer loyalty points, store points, repeat customer discounts, and so many other examples (including discounts for company employees).
People still buy using REAL money (one has to purchase or mine cryptocurrencies using REAL money before they can spend it). People still buy REAL (material) products and varied services (in different forms, including digital). Now, instead of buying the old fashioned way, people are buying online. Again - nothing new.
Also, what percentage of the global population does/behaves the way Technofeudalism describes? A still quite small percentage. How many people REALLY own Ring devices or Alexa, etc. globally? A minority of the population.
I think he failed in comparing the present circumstances/behavior to feudal behavior.
What Varoufakis describes is just another form of exchange of value WITHIN the system of Capitalism. So we do it on online platforms (Amazon, Alibaba, Walmart, Apple Store, Android Store, spotify, netflix, whatever). So we let these platforms/devices give us suggestions based on our preferences. So these platforms use our data to guide our purchasing habits. Advertising does the same thing (eg. online ads). In fact, the revenue model for these "so-called cloud companies" is primarily Advertising (Google, Meta and other social media companies, even Amazon to a certain extent).
Varoufakis is desperately trying to convince us that what we see happening is something NEW. It's not. He uses all kinds of examples to make us think that the system has changed (from Capitalism to Technofeudalism). It hasn't. Yes, we do have MORE models of "exchange value behavior" within Capitalism, but it's still Capitalism.
I am not as smart or articulate as you guys and yet I am wondering if i sense something missing from this conversation: it isn’t just about advertising and consumerism - ‘it’ being our use of/ reliance on the internet and all the data that is exchanged there; we are being shaped beyond what we buy, and even beyond what/ how we think and come to ‘know’ what we know. our choices in an ai-dominated world will become more and more limited and thereby our agency further and further removed from us. can you get what i’m laying down and maybe even articulate it better than I did? does it matter if it happens under capitalism or feudalism? It does, I imagine, in the sense that use of language matters, but let us not lose track of what is happening, which is further loss of agency. I do think this is NEW in scale and we might be on some sort of brink.
Tori, "further loss of agency" will happen regardless of AI. AI has been over-hyped to infinity (on the good side and the bad side).
We (the 99%) have ALWAYS been shaped (coerced, propagandized, etc.) by TPTB (1%) into behaving a certain way (even when they was no consumerism) so that society can be maintained/controlled to preserve the status quo favorable to the 1%.
As technology progresses, the tools available to do this (population control/behavior modification) get more sophisticated. The "power elite" (i.e. 1%) then employ these tools (in addition to what they already have in their toolbox) to maintain the unjust status quo. AI is just the most recent "tool" for this. (of course AI is a lot more than a "tool" - but in the context that we are talking - TPTB will be weaponising AI for their own advantages/purposes).
>>"I do think this is NEW in scale and we might be on some sort of brink"
As stated above, EVERY "new technology" has multiple purposes and can be used for good AND bad. As history shows, every such "major new technology" increases the scope/scale of application on the 99%. Hence, this phenomenon is NOT NEW, simply the next iteration. Also, AI is not new (AI research started in the 1960s).
Should you fear the technology? IMHO - No. But you SHOULD FEAR the people that will wield it to gain more power and continue the oppression and exploitation of others. Hence the need to continue to fight and resist them (using conscious decisions about how/where we spend our time/money/renergy/resources/etc. and being conscious of who benefits and who loses by the way we make our decisions).