235 Comments
User's avatar
⭠ Return to thread
Stephen Walker's avatar

Apologies, I failed to take into account that Chang is quoting Caitlin. But then Chang uses the quote in slightly misleading way (imho) to define “capitalism”. Capitalism is something that existed in the mid-19th century. What we have now is “monopolistic cartelism” (i.e. gangsterism). It’s like robber-barons, but with smartphone-based mind control.

Expand full comment
Chang Chokaski's avatar

Capitalism has existed since the mid 15th Century (i.e. around 1450). There are MULTIPLE "kinds" of Capitalism (just like there are multiple kinds of Socialism, Communism, etc.) - BUT -> they are all still Capitalism (call it neoliberalism, techno-feudalism, or whatever else you want).

Expand full comment
Howard Pearce - Libertarian's avatar

No

Capitalism is based upon private ownership and use of capital

Not for the COERCIVE monopoly state as you would prefer

Any state in a capitalist society will be very very minimal

ANy state is a good sign that capitalism has already been corrupted by those controlling the area

The U.S. only had a mixed economy from the scratch that people called capitalism despite the definition of private ownership

Expand full comment
Vonu's avatar

Calling a girl a boy doesn't make her one.

Calling a fascist a capitalist doesn't make them such, either.

Expand full comment
Chang Chokaski's avatar

You need to work on your analogies AND on your logic. Try again.

Expand full comment
Vonu's avatar

Your analogies are illogical.

Expand full comment
Chang Chokaski's avatar

??? What analogies have I made?

Expand full comment
Vonu's avatar

The ones that you accuse me of making.

Expand full comment
F....'s avatar

Alternatives to the present economic system?

Expand full comment
Chang Chokaski's avatar

multiple - "resource-based socialist system" is my preference - respecting the MOST important things on the planet -> resources (earth, etc.) and life (people, other species).

Also note that multiple variations of economic systems exist simultaneously in multiple different parts of the planet (for example: currently there exists some forms of slavery, feudalism, mercantilism, capitalism, socialism, and others in different pockets of human geography).

Check out Peter Joseph (for more on resource-based systems).

Expand full comment
F....'s avatar

The Resource-based socialist system reminds me of Eco-Socialism.

When exploring alternative economies I'm curious to find out who will get to issue the credit as opposed to the present system where a very small group appears to have the monopoly.

In the end - alternative economies can only succeed with self government instead of being ruled from afar.

Expand full comment
Vonu's avatar

A return to the free market of the late 18th century, before Hamilton dragged us back into mercantilism for the City of London.

Expand full comment
Chang Chokaski's avatar

(1) Capitalism is NOT "free-markets"

(2) Concepts like "free-markets" are a misnomer - free markets don't exists - never have.

(3) Study the history of human economics - markets are usually created by the state and regulated so as to promote "freeness"

(4) Without market regulation, monopolies and those with power wield their own whims/fancies/rules on markets and thus making them UNFREE.

Expand full comment
Vonu's avatar

So an economy cannot exist without a state, Karl?

Expand full comment
martin's avatar

is the american free market of the late 18th century an example of an economy without a state?

Expand full comment
Chang Chokaski's avatar

Who's talking about economies? My points address "markets" and specifically the "concept" of "free-markets".

Study the history of economic systems. Markets have ALWAYS existed (even before Capitalism). Study the history of markets.

Expand full comment
Howard Pearce - Libertarian's avatar

an actual Free Market based upon the LIBERAL concept of Freedom of Association.

Even in the MARKET

Others inherently support state-mandated associations including Caitlin

and so-called social "liberals"

Expand full comment
Vonu's avatar

Economics are not partisan.

Expand full comment