We are living in a time when we have to try to separate the bullshit from what may actually have an element of truth in it. That is getting more and more difficult. Except with Trump. It seems so obvious that he is an immoral creep from his comments about women to his blaming of immigrants for the problems in the US. Make America Great Again. But when was it that America was great?
Great question. When was America Great? When has America not been a war-mongering, exceptionalist, white supremicist, racist, fundamentalist, misogynist, hate-promoting, us vs them state? No one in the corporate media will ask that question. No one amongst America's "progressives" will ask that question. I'd guess they don't ask it because they know the answer.
What country WAS great? Maybe another question, what country doesn’t have dirty hands in its history? Not making excuses, just making a point about humans. One would think we could evolve past these behaviors but alas, we still have modern day colonialism
You are likely right on this. Nationalism does this to people, otherism does this to people. The colonialist powers were all the same and equally as evil. Most of them have now given up on overtly preaching they are exceptional (although it's coming back with the rise of the right) but the USA, (Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and progressives) have never ceased preaching they are exceptional, it's in the DNA and, unfortunately, no other country has ever had the power (militarily and economically) the USA has in order to implement its agenda or end human life on the planet.
I think you meant conservatives and liberals. True progressives are on the left (in both social & economic spheres - and I wouldn't consider Bernie Sanders or AOC progressives, even though the media does). IMHO, to be a true progressive, one needs to be an anti-capitalist.
Including here in America. It spies on us, lies to us, sends our families to kill people in other countries so rich people can still the resources. It lets cops beat the crap out of us and kill over 1,300 of us year with no repercussions because they are working for the rich people who run the country. Obama let the banks steal 10 million homes through fraud and then gave them money to buy up the stolen homes.
We can have both. Think about pride in sports teams. We love our team and want to win but we don’t want to literally kill our opponents and their families. We can compete in the world in a humane way.
America was never great. America was lucky and our luck is running out.
I've been told that the definition of luck is when preparation meets opportunity. So it was. So it is. Opportunities are squandered because the fools don't see them. So it is.
I do not think there are any great countries. Was it Tucker, who a few months ago stated, that one of the only reigning people who worked for his people, was a sheik in one of the United Emirates? one emir? that is a very sad balance. I think the president of El Salvador is quite decent, too. There are a few people like Orban who are speaking up as well. Not sure if I trust Erdogan.
The decimation of the vast majority of Amerikkka’s indigenous people was a contorted sense of “Christianity “ coupled with greed and a warped sense of entitlement.
If by "this racist supremacist country" you mean the USA I can agree if you are referring to the capitalist/fascist ruling class, with the addition of "white" in front of "supremacist". If by "African communist Muslim" you mean Obama, he is not African (anymore than all of us are as we originated there), he is definitely not communist, and he is not Muslim. But, what if he was? Are you one of the racists in the USA that support the ruling class? If you mean the election is "rigged" in that it doesn't matter whether you vote Republican or Democrat you will get a capitalist government that supports the ruling class and shits on the working class, then I agree all elections in capitalist countries are "rigged". Your final two words are both ableist and ageist and would indicate you are ignorant of facts and decent, respectful, social decorum.
Disagree. We are who we choose to become and taking action to make positive change is work and challenge and yet quite possible. It is not simply our right, it is our obligation as Americans.
I consider myself an American ‘progressive’ duh…? I am the child of a European immigrant. I was one first among young women admitted to the colleges where I went and then global companies.
We are and can be ‘ great’ if as a country our systems allow for advancement for those who did not define and take hold in leadership … now women , individuals who of different backgrounds.. and more.
We are essentially immigrants who come together to advance a better world. We should not become afraid. We should learn and advance what are our greatest attributes .
America has great principles to aspire to: freedom, justice, tolerance, democracy, social mobility, religious and political rights, scientific rationality, the public good, public lands, etc.
You want it? You gotta work for it, not whine about its failures.
None of these principles you speak of are an invention of the modern day America you speak of. All of these principles have been in practise in one form or another everywhere else, in ancient Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Inca empire, India, China, everywhere. Stop whitewashing the history.
I never claimed exclusive ownership of this principles, so don't put words in my mouth. And that's not whitewashing history - the so called US "founders" were creatures of the enlightenment and students of history.
That's why I urged Caitlin, in a separate comment, to Google JD Vance and the "Dark Enlightenment"
Again, I didn't put a single word in your mouth. You chose those words on your own accords. Anyone who reads it will assume what I have assumed. Stop using the big words like "freedom", "scientific rationality" for modern day America. What freedom? freedom to choose our leaders? What scientific rationality when majority of the Americans now believe that the universe is just a few thousand years old, Darwinism is a myth, evolution is a myth. People do want these things, who says they don't? But saying casually that "you gotta work for it" doesn't cut it. Nobody gave Black people the voting rights on a silver platter, they fought for it. Is that the kind of "working for it" you are referring to? All of these principles sounds great on paper, in theory but you need to have a government willing to work towards achieving these principles for the commoners, not shielding bit corporations and giving more rights to them than the average person.
Why do I sense you are a relatively young person? If you don't claim your angels, you are left only with your demons. Which constitute a half-truth of reality. Isn't it unwise to derogate the virtues that at one time were important enough to settlers and their progeny fleeing nations ruled by monarchies (authoritarians)to install them in the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Your protest holds important seeds for thought in it. It also is a testament to the fact some shreds of democracy still exist in the USA. I lived in Zaire (Congo) when Mobutu
was President. Were you to publish such a protest in kind in a visible publication, what do you suppose would happen to you, your family? So avoiding the "perfect", we are forced to face the gray area between the absolutes of all good and all bad. We live in between. As re science and rationality - it definitely distresses to witness the anti-intellectualism and replacement of rationality with emotionality that's in assent in a lot of quarters, especially the Trump world, a fact-free one. Isn't the integration of high values (freedom, justice, compassion, right-action, choice) whether in a macrocosm (a nation) or a microcosm (an individual) into functional governing structures (law) and (personal principles) a revolutionary process? Doesn't evolution always demand revolution? Choosing to let go of the old hollow illusions and opening to including what is missing? Your last sentence contains a critical insight. One that is at the base of our corruptability and corrupted institutions. Corporations worship one God: Materialism. Matter. Stuff. What happens when a corrupted species in Nature - like a tsunami of locusts - spreads over the earth? And after that happens, what happens next?
do you know what the word "aspire"means? I specifically said people had to fight for their principles and rights. Your interpretations are so perverse they must be in bad faith. And you don't get government to work without citizen activism.. I've never seen anyone more pervert my writings than the drivel you just spewed.
There’s a certain kind of contempt you have for the masses in your original comment, I am not sure if you can recognize it, otherwise you wouldn’t have framed your thoughts the way you did. I wanted to point it out and I did just that. No hard feelings. Peace to you.
Why do people have to work and fight for their rights? The animal group we are currently talking about are all people so why shouldn't we just have our rights, why shouldn't we just respect everyone's rights? Working and fighting for rights makes it sound as if there is some outside power or evil force, other than people, trying to take away our rights. All nationalists, in my view, are opposed to others' rights (others' being at least those from outside the national border), have a view that the artificial borders that form their countries provide them some privilege to which others are not entitled, and allow them to go anywhere and do anything in the name of protecting their own rights. America is certainly a leader in that regard.
The founders were elites who aspired to be ruling elites which they couldn’t be in their homeland. They installed a self-sustaining economy that kept the wealth in their hands and consigned the masses to hustling for the loose change. They feared majorities because majorities don’t revere privilege, and privileged is what they were.
The Founding Fathers™ were oligarchs who wanted America for themselves exclusively. They wanted to cut out the Brits and cunningly invented the whole "liberty" and "freedom" charade to engage the plebes. The narrative worked, and continues to this day. Just ask most Americans, jingos that they are.
Sorry, forgot you are an American too, billie. Forget what I just said, it's not for you.
Of course the "founders" were elite capitalist oligarch seeking got preserve their privilege and their property. Tell me something I don't already know. The simplistic line off my critics in the thread - and several otter's - confuse the principle from the interest or the person advocating it. Simple error in thinking.. No ability to deal with nuance.
Your comment suggested that America’s “great” principles can be achieved through hard work. I do hope that you continue to read Caitlin’s column religiously. Your regurgitation of empty propaganda is remarkable.
Years ago before the Marxist libtard Geouz totally dominated America, the KKK took permission to march in Chicago, and we're protected by the police as they marched in a geouwish neighborhood. Nobody cried about being threatened.
A Marxist cannot be a libtard (and a libtard cannot be a Marxist), and a Marxist (let alone a Socialist) has never dominated America. Please get your facts straight.
We are living in a time when we have to try to separate the bullshit from what may actually have an element of truth in it. That is getting more and more difficult. Except with Trump. It seems so obvious that he is an immoral creep from his comments about women to his blaming of immigrants for the problems in the US. Make America Great Again. But when was it that America was great?
Great question. When was America Great? When has America not been a war-mongering, exceptionalist, white supremicist, racist, fundamentalist, misogynist, hate-promoting, us vs them state? No one in the corporate media will ask that question. No one amongst America's "progressives" will ask that question. I'd guess they don't ask it because they know the answer.
What country WAS great? Maybe another question, what country doesn’t have dirty hands in its history? Not making excuses, just making a point about humans. One would think we could evolve past these behaviors but alas, we still have modern day colonialism
You are likely right on this. Nationalism does this to people, otherism does this to people. The colonialist powers were all the same and equally as evil. Most of them have now given up on overtly preaching they are exceptional (although it's coming back with the rise of the right) but the USA, (Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and progressives) have never ceased preaching they are exceptional, it's in the DNA and, unfortunately, no other country has ever had the power (militarily and economically) the USA has in order to implement its agenda or end human life on the planet.
>>"...conservatives and progressives..."
I think you meant conservatives and liberals. True progressives are on the left (in both social & economic spheres - and I wouldn't consider Bernie Sanders or AOC progressives, even though the media does). IMHO, to be a true progressive, one needs to be an anti-capitalist.
Fair point.
Including here in America. It spies on us, lies to us, sends our families to kill people in other countries so rich people can still the resources. It lets cops beat the crap out of us and kill over 1,300 of us year with no repercussions because they are working for the rich people who run the country. Obama let the banks steal 10 million homes through fraud and then gave them money to buy up the stolen homes.
Wars abroad always come home to roost. Always.
Empires are inherently evil. Ours is no different
Your point suggests emphasizing people, rather than nations. That is, being a humanist instead of a nationalist.
We can have both. Think about pride in sports teams. We love our team and want to win but we don’t want to literally kill our opponents and their families. We can compete in the world in a humane way.
Maybe Bhutan?
America was never great. America was lucky and our luck is running out.
I've been told that the definition of luck is when preparation meets opportunity. So it was. So it is. Opportunities are squandered because the fools don't see them. So it is.
I do not think there are any great countries. Was it Tucker, who a few months ago stated, that one of the only reigning people who worked for his people, was a sheik in one of the United Emirates? one emir? that is a very sad balance. I think the president of El Salvador is quite decent, too. There are a few people like Orban who are speaking up as well. Not sure if I trust Erdogan.
America was lucky? Rape, pillage and plunder is not the definition of luck.
The decimation of the vast majority of Amerikkka’s indigenous people was a contorted sense of “Christianity “ coupled with greed and a warped sense of entitlement.
Native Americans: fighting terrorism since 1492.
Who is the fool? Where is the obligation to act?
This racist supremacist country voted for an African communist Muslim POS? Unless it was rigged like voting for a retarded octagenerian.
If by "this racist supremacist country" you mean the USA I can agree if you are referring to the capitalist/fascist ruling class, with the addition of "white" in front of "supremacist". If by "African communist Muslim" you mean Obama, he is not African (anymore than all of us are as we originated there), he is definitely not communist, and he is not Muslim. But, what if he was? Are you one of the racists in the USA that support the ruling class? If you mean the election is "rigged" in that it doesn't matter whether you vote Republican or Democrat you will get a capitalist government that supports the ruling class and shits on the working class, then I agree all elections in capitalist countries are "rigged". Your final two words are both ableist and ageist and would indicate you are ignorant of facts and decent, respectful, social decorum.
Well responded Ron Stockton - I share your sentiments.
Disagree. We are who we choose to become and taking action to make positive change is work and challenge and yet quite possible. It is not simply our right, it is our obligation as Americans.
I consider myself an American ‘progressive’ duh…? I am the child of a European immigrant. I was one first among young women admitted to the colleges where I went and then global companies.
We are and can be ‘ great’ if as a country our systems allow for advancement for those who did not define and take hold in leadership … now women , individuals who of different backgrounds.. and more.
We are essentially immigrants who come together to advance a better world. We should not become afraid. We should learn and advance what are our greatest attributes .
America has great principles to aspire to: freedom, justice, tolerance, democracy, social mobility, religious and political rights, scientific rationality, the public good, public lands, etc.
You want it? You gotta work for it, not whine about its failures.
None of these principles you speak of are an invention of the modern day America you speak of. All of these principles have been in practise in one form or another everywhere else, in ancient Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece, Rome, Inca empire, India, China, everywhere. Stop whitewashing the history.
I never claimed exclusive ownership of this principles, so don't put words in my mouth. And that's not whitewashing history - the so called US "founders" were creatures of the enlightenment and students of history.
That's why I urged Caitlin, in a separate comment, to Google JD Vance and the "Dark Enlightenment"
"the so called US "founders" were creatures of the enlightenment and students of history."
The founders were typically slave owners, and did everything that they could to further the genocide of Native Americans.
The fact that many were involved in the "enlightenment" (i.e. were atheists or deists) doesn't really make them all that wonderful.
look up the word "aspire" then get back to me.
Again, I didn't put a single word in your mouth. You chose those words on your own accords. Anyone who reads it will assume what I have assumed. Stop using the big words like "freedom", "scientific rationality" for modern day America. What freedom? freedom to choose our leaders? What scientific rationality when majority of the Americans now believe that the universe is just a few thousand years old, Darwinism is a myth, evolution is a myth. People do want these things, who says they don't? But saying casually that "you gotta work for it" doesn't cut it. Nobody gave Black people the voting rights on a silver platter, they fought for it. Is that the kind of "working for it" you are referring to? All of these principles sounds great on paper, in theory but you need to have a government willing to work towards achieving these principles for the commoners, not shielding bit corporations and giving more rights to them than the average person.
Why do I sense you are a relatively young person? If you don't claim your angels, you are left only with your demons. Which constitute a half-truth of reality. Isn't it unwise to derogate the virtues that at one time were important enough to settlers and their progeny fleeing nations ruled by monarchies (authoritarians)to install them in the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Your protest holds important seeds for thought in it. It also is a testament to the fact some shreds of democracy still exist in the USA. I lived in Zaire (Congo) when Mobutu
was President. Were you to publish such a protest in kind in a visible publication, what do you suppose would happen to you, your family? So avoiding the "perfect", we are forced to face the gray area between the absolutes of all good and all bad. We live in between. As re science and rationality - it definitely distresses to witness the anti-intellectualism and replacement of rationality with emotionality that's in assent in a lot of quarters, especially the Trump world, a fact-free one. Isn't the integration of high values (freedom, justice, compassion, right-action, choice) whether in a macrocosm (a nation) or a microcosm (an individual) into functional governing structures (law) and (personal principles) a revolutionary process? Doesn't evolution always demand revolution? Choosing to let go of the old hollow illusions and opening to including what is missing? Your last sentence contains a critical insight. One that is at the base of our corruptability and corrupted institutions. Corporations worship one God: Materialism. Matter. Stuff. What happens when a corrupted species in Nature - like a tsunami of locusts - spreads over the earth? And after that happens, what happens next?
do you know what the word "aspire"means? I specifically said people had to fight for their principles and rights. Your interpretations are so perverse they must be in bad faith. And you don't get government to work without citizen activism.. I've never seen anyone more pervert my writings than the drivel you just spewed.
There’s a certain kind of contempt you have for the masses in your original comment, I am not sure if you can recognize it, otherwise you wouldn’t have framed your thoughts the way you did. I wanted to point it out and I did just that. No hard feelings. Peace to you.
Why do people have to work and fight for their rights? The animal group we are currently talking about are all people so why shouldn't we just have our rights, why shouldn't we just respect everyone's rights? Working and fighting for rights makes it sound as if there is some outside power or evil force, other than people, trying to take away our rights. All nationalists, in my view, are opposed to others' rights (others' being at least those from outside the national border), have a view that the artificial borders that form their countries provide them some privilege to which others are not entitled, and allow them to go anywhere and do anything in the name of protecting their own rights. America is certainly a leader in that regard.
I most certainly did not assume what you have assumed, A M, and I assume that I am not alone.
The founders were elites who aspired to be ruling elites which they couldn’t be in their homeland. They installed a self-sustaining economy that kept the wealth in their hands and consigned the masses to hustling for the loose change. They feared majorities because majorities don’t revere privilege, and privileged is what they were.
The Founding Fathers™ were oligarchs who wanted America for themselves exclusively. They wanted to cut out the Brits and cunningly invented the whole "liberty" and "freedom" charade to engage the plebes. The narrative worked, and continues to this day. Just ask most Americans, jingos that they are.
Sorry, forgot you are an American too, billie. Forget what I just said, it's not for you.
Of course the "founders" were elite capitalist oligarch seeking got preserve their privilege and their property. Tell me something I don't already know. The simplistic line off my critics in the thread - and several otter's - confuse the principle from the interest or the person advocating it. Simple error in thinking.. No ability to deal with nuance.
Your comment suggested that America’s “great” principles can be achieved through hard work. I do hope that you continue to read Caitlin’s column religiously. Your regurgitation of empty propaganda is remarkable.
There is a recent Tucker interview with Cernovich. A bit long, but full of spiritual, and consciousness ideas.
The lobbyists own the country. Money has destroyed America
🤦♂️
Years ago before the Marxist libtard Geouz totally dominated America, the KKK took permission to march in Chicago, and we're protected by the police as they marched in a geouwish neighborhood. Nobody cried about being threatened.
A Marxist cannot be a libtard (and a libtard cannot be a Marxist), and a Marxist (let alone a Socialist) has never dominated America. Please get your facts straight.
Amurdica was and is the military arm of the City of London.
Almost 500 invasions, overthrows, wars since 1776. Yet most US citizens cannot find their own country on a world map.
Tick tock, time is up
Biden?? His past? They are both disgusting, one just says it in public
Trump is the master of hyperbole and bullshit. The True Believers suck it up.
America is a great power, and it's dollar is the best currency in the world because it is backed by bombers.