How about you show ONE example, excepting for a mother dying in childbirth, when a man has been forced to end a successful career to raise his children. (Hint: Does he not hire a nanny?)
This is just silly, it sure isn't common but there are men who, for a variety of reason choose to leave their career and "stay at home". Like there are examples of women who abandon their newborns and leave.
I didn't say there weren't. You say "choose to leave," when the original idea was about being forced. Nowhere did I DENY that either thing happens. I think you've entirely missed the point. Not surprising, with this insane thread.
IMHO, you have described the complicated real world much more accurately than Caitlin's original statement.
It isn't hard for me to find examples from my personal experience where a Dad is "forced" to end his successful career, whatever "forced" means (my guess is she means an economic judgment "forces" someone who makes less cash than daycare costs to put their career on hold).
I know married couples where the man stays home and is the primary daily caregiver for the children because the wife's career is so much better paying and benefited. (e.g. the wife is a doctor and the man's successful career as a freelance roving artistic photographer didn't bring home much cash and lacked a health insurance plan, successful though he was. Or again, the man runs a very small, independent successful business but the woman is a unionized public employee working for a school district with steady pay, tenure, health benefits and a pension plan: his business goes on the back burner so he can raise the kids because they really need that generous government sponsored health plan.)
If Caitlin is trying to say that women never have more highly paying, well benefited, reliable career tracks than their husbands, I wish she would provide more evidence of that. What I see is a lot of married couples in the 21st century making rational economic choices based on who earns more, and a lotta times it's the woman.
Women in the US graduate from college more than men and pursue careers with more success than a hell of a lot of men now. This fact should not be ignored.
I agree. Regardless of my personal view on the issue of abortion I think that what really irks me is the militant accost in which the polemic is being conducted. On both sides but "pro choice" maybe more so since that group seems to be much "louder". It's not "black and white" issue, never has been and never will be for the simple reason that we're dealing with individual
human behaviour and circumstances. I hear "rape pregnancy" being thrown around a lot, how many of those are at issue here? I'm not after the numbers but mindful that each of those is a tragic personal experience and obviously requires individual and specific approach. But it seems that even in what supposed to be be calm and rational discussions all and everything is being thrown together like there was no way out of it, like most just
enjoy proving themselves right instead of trying to find the best solution.
Sure the issue is highly emotive but let's not forget that majority of couples are perfectly able to negotiate the care of their offspring between
themselves and according to their priorities. And please, let's not
forget that profilactics are widely available to all and treat the issue more
as medical intervention and less as a solution to the lack of personal responsibility for our own actions. My view might be somewhat parochial since I'm in Australia and not in the midst of it.
She asserted that men NEVER have to end their careers to take care of children. And she didn't provide an exception for a mother dying in childbirth, or a mother who abandoned the family, or a mother with a successful career that actually out earns the husband in his successful career, or any other exception.
She simply said never. All I asked for was evidence to back up that claim. She's confident so it shouldn't be hard to provide.
I'm not here to back up Caitlin. I'm speaking for myself. Let's look at some statistics, and I'm just going to guess because I'm not really worried about being wrong...
Regarding mothers who die in childbirth and a "SUCCESSFUL MAN" being forced to care for his children... there's this idea called NANNY.
Regarding a mother who abandons the family... I'd say MEN do that probably MOSTLY, and RARELY do we see women do that. And again, with a SUCCESSFUL MAN... NANNY.
Regarding a woman that out-earns the husband... how is he FORCED to give up his successful career? Again... NANNY.
Regarding any other exception... can you really say that successful men are hardly EVER "forced" to give up their careers to raise their children? And, those nannies... are almost ALWAYS WOMEN.
How about you show ONE example, excepting for a mother dying in childbirth, when a man has been forced to end a successful career to raise his children. (Hint: Does he not hire a nanny?)
This is just silly, it sure isn't common but there are men who, for a variety of reason choose to leave their career and "stay at home". Like there are examples of women who abandon their newborns and leave.
I didn't say there weren't. You say "choose to leave," when the original idea was about being forced. Nowhere did I DENY that either thing happens. I think you've entirely missed the point. Not surprising, with this insane thread.
IMHO, you have described the complicated real world much more accurately than Caitlin's original statement.
It isn't hard for me to find examples from my personal experience where a Dad is "forced" to end his successful career, whatever "forced" means (my guess is she means an economic judgment "forces" someone who makes less cash than daycare costs to put their career on hold).
I know married couples where the man stays home and is the primary daily caregiver for the children because the wife's career is so much better paying and benefited. (e.g. the wife is a doctor and the man's successful career as a freelance roving artistic photographer didn't bring home much cash and lacked a health insurance plan, successful though he was. Or again, the man runs a very small, independent successful business but the woman is a unionized public employee working for a school district with steady pay, tenure, health benefits and a pension plan: his business goes on the back burner so he can raise the kids because they really need that generous government sponsored health plan.)
If Caitlin is trying to say that women never have more highly paying, well benefited, reliable career tracks than their husbands, I wish she would provide more evidence of that. What I see is a lot of married couples in the 21st century making rational economic choices based on who earns more, and a lotta times it's the woman.
Women in the US graduate from college more than men and pursue careers with more success than a hell of a lot of men now. This fact should not be ignored.
I agree. Regardless of my personal view on the issue of abortion I think that what really irks me is the militant accost in which the polemic is being conducted. On both sides but "pro choice" maybe more so since that group seems to be much "louder". It's not "black and white" issue, never has been and never will be for the simple reason that we're dealing with individual
human behaviour and circumstances. I hear "rape pregnancy" being thrown around a lot, how many of those are at issue here? I'm not after the numbers but mindful that each of those is a tragic personal experience and obviously requires individual and specific approach. But it seems that even in what supposed to be be calm and rational discussions all and everything is being thrown together like there was no way out of it, like most just
enjoy proving themselves right instead of trying to find the best solution.
Sure the issue is highly emotive but let's not forget that majority of couples are perfectly able to negotiate the care of their offspring between
themselves and according to their priorities. And please, let's not
forget that profilactics are widely available to all and treat the issue more
as medical intervention and less as a solution to the lack of personal responsibility for our own actions. My view might be somewhat parochial since I'm in Australia and not in the midst of it.
She asserted that men NEVER have to end their careers to take care of children. And she didn't provide an exception for a mother dying in childbirth, or a mother who abandoned the family, or a mother with a successful career that actually out earns the husband in his successful career, or any other exception.
She simply said never. All I asked for was evidence to back up that claim. She's confident so it shouldn't be hard to provide.
I'm not here to back up Caitlin. I'm speaking for myself. Let's look at some statistics, and I'm just going to guess because I'm not really worried about being wrong...
Regarding mothers who die in childbirth and a "SUCCESSFUL MAN" being forced to care for his children... there's this idea called NANNY.
Regarding a mother who abandons the family... I'd say MEN do that probably MOSTLY, and RARELY do we see women do that. And again, with a SUCCESSFUL MAN... NANNY.
Regarding a woman that out-earns the husband... how is he FORCED to give up his successful career? Again... NANNY.
Regarding any other exception... can you really say that successful men are hardly EVER "forced" to give up their careers to raise their children? And, those nannies... are almost ALWAYS WOMEN.
I rest my case.