>>"Zionist Israel claims to represent Judaism and Jews? That is absolute. It is a fact. It is not in doubt."
EXACTLY my point. This is what Zionists do. This is their Hasbara. Smart and critical thinking people SHOULD NOT fall for Zionist hasbara.
Let me repeat -> "Smart and critical thinking people SHOULD NOT fall for Zionist hasbara."
Zionists purposely CONFLATE Jews, Judaism, Zionism so that ALL Jews ALL over the world are BLAMED for the actions of 'the monstrosity and absolute EVIL that is Israel'. That is BY DESIGN. Hence, it is UNWISE to fall into this TRAP that the Zionists have made.
Some simple Yes/No questions:
(1) Do you agree that there are some some Jews that are Zionists?
(2) Do you agree that there are some Jews that are NOT Zionists?
(3) Are YOU, Roslyn Ross, able to distinguish between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism? I'm not talking about anyone else in the world being able to distinguish. I'm asking you DIRECTLY - are you able to make these distinctions? Or do you think Jews = Judaism = Zionism?
Your answers to the above (simple, straight-forward) questions will provide much insight into WHY you think the way you do.
>>"Since most Jews do not challenge that claim and there is no unified Judaic opposition"
It is really irrelevant what most Jews claim or what 'WE THINK' most Jews claim (since there is no rigorous, exhaustive poll/survey (which in itself is subject to sampling and bias issues, not to mention variations in moods and human psychology) that has tabulated the response of EVERY SINGLE JEW on the planet), we can only make guesstimates (we don't even know the margin of error for such statistical calculations) that could potentially be wildly inaccurate.
The BURDEN of differentiation and distinction (between Jews, Judaism, Zionism) is on EVERY PERSON on the planet (regardless of what a Jew or a person of Judaic faith or a Zionist believes or does not believe). Just as the burden of differentiation of 'different sects of Christianity or Islam' lies on the observer (when such differentiations are of importance to world events), the same applies to Jews of different belief systems.
Hence, your "Logic, reason and reality must then conclude that Zionism, Judaism and Jews are welded together as a unit." is DEFUNCT - i.e. there is no logic involved here. NONE. There is NO logic, reason, (and let's not even get into the subjectiveness and variations of reality and perceptions of reality) in ANY of this. But you would know this if you understood logic (even at a rudimentary level), as these are the basic steps of philosophical logic (and I doubt you are prepared to go into formal logic into all this - it requires axioms and symbolisms that I'm familiar with (as per my background in Computer Science)).
Hence, pure simple logic says the OPPOSITE - there is no welding - logic doesn't work on what someone believes or what someone says they believe - it works on mathematical principles. We are getting beyond the scope of what is conveniently discussable in this format without going into logic theory, but suffice to say that ->
(a) there are multiple permutations and combinations (combinatorial logic) on the different kinds of groupings possible concerning the 3 entities (Jews, Judaism, Zionism)
(b) Each such unique group (formed from the above permutation and combination) will have unique characteristics that will differ from other such groups (based on basic logic of groupings (i.e. sets) from from the different P/C (abbreviation for permutation/combination).
(c) Each such P/C group/set would be assigned a statistical calculation as to their beliefs.
(d) As per Set Theory, there will be intersections and unions amongst these different sets based on a particular set's belief systems overlapping (based on different criteria) with those of another set.
Hence, when the Math is all said and done, you will land up with multiple groups (eg. Zionists that are not Jews, Jews that do not believe in Judaism but are Zionists, Jews that believe in Judaism that are NOT Zionists, etc. etc. and much more complicated groupings based on sub-modalities of belief systems.
This is already getting somewhat abstract (and I feel most people would have lost me by this point of time in the comment).
To wrap up this point, all this goes to show that your 'WELDING' that you believe is ANYTHING BUT welding. It is a smorgasbord of unwelded groups (sets) that agree on some beliefs and disagree on others (simple example: think how some Orthodox Jews support Zionism and some don't).
So, there is NO LOGIC in the WORLD that can achieve this 'magical and fictional' welding that you claim. To deny this is to deny basic logic and math (which you seem to do SO OFTEN in most of your comments).
Q.E.D.
Roslyn Ross, based on your comments, I suggest you forget mentioning logic and reason in your comments - since you have none (or very little).
But go ahead and try your shit with people that have limited understanding of logic - they might actually fall for it (and apparently there seem to be quite a few in this world).
>>"If they did not then they would rise up as a majority and condemn the Israeli State and separate themselves from it."
This is SO ABSURD that it belies your understanding of reality, how social groups work and coordinate, how challenging organizing groups based on commonalities and differences is, and more.
But like I've said before - you are NOT an honest person, and you lack intellectual honesty AND integrity (not to mention an inadequate understdanding of historical analysis and historiography. All you have (and depend on) are your biases, your racist beliefs, your lived life experiences, your prejudices, and your narratives.
Hence, all this makes you the person you present yourself to be (and often try to hide the ugly aspects of it).
I have no idea who Tom is and the fact we agree on some things does not make us friends.
You said:EXACTLY my point. This is what Zionists do. This is their Hasbara. Smart and critical thinking people SHOULD NOT fall for Zionist hasbara.
We agree that Israel claims to represent Judaism and Jews. The problem for you is most Jews also agree with that and fund, promote and support the State and call it the Jewish State. If Jews did not do that it would simply be hasbara, but, because Jews do agree with the Israeli claim then logically they are complicit.
You said:Zionists purposely CONFLATE Jews, Judaism, Zionism so that ALL Jews ALL over the world are BLAMED for the actions of 'the monstrosity and absolute EVIL that is Israel'. That is BY DESIGN.
Sure, but the problem is most Jews do not only allow them to do that they encourage and fund them to do that. So most Jews accept their claims and conflate is not the issue.
If Most Jews did not support Israel’s claims it would be a different matter, but they do support and promote those claims. And yes, Zionists may well want Jews to be blamed for what they do because their end goal is to terrify gullible Jews into upping stakes and moving as colonists to Palestine, and in the future, Lebanon and Syria.
You said:Hence, it is UNWISE to fall into this TRAP that the Zionists have made.
Since most Jews have fallen into the trap your statement is ridiculous.
Some simple Yes/No questions:
(1) Do you agree that there are some some Jews that are Zionists?
Yes. (But I think Zionist principles are entrenched in Judaism and so most Jews hold consciously and unconsciously Zionist principles)
(2) Do you agree that there are some Jews that are NOT Zionists?
Yes. But not many. (But I think Zionist principles are entrenched in Judaism and so most Jews hold consciously and unconsciously Zionist principles)
(3) Are YOU, Roslyn Ross, able to distinguish between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism?
Jews are followers of a religion; Judaism is a religion; Zionism is a fascist, racist political movement which draws on Judaism and Jewish beliefs. They are welded together.
You said:I'm not talking about anyone else in the world being able to distinguish. I'm asking you DIRECTLY - are you able to make these distinctions? Or do you think Jews = Judaism = Zionism?
If you do not believe in Judaism and its God you are not a Jew. Zionist principles are sourced in Judaic teachings. So, generally Jews do equal Judaism and equal Zionism with some rare and brave exceptions. I am talking about real Jews not the fake atheist/secular who claim to be Jews but are not.
Your answers to the above (simple, straight-forward) questions will provide much insight into WHY you think the way you do.
You said: It is really irrelevant what most Jews claim
It is not irrelevant. If a rogue State committed atrocities in the name of Christians and said it was the Christian State and most Christians did not reject that claim but instead supported it and funded the State then it would behove all Christians to come together to take action against the rogue State and its atrocities. Same for Jews.
You said: (since there is no rigorous, exhaustive poll/survey (which in itself is subject to sampling and bias issues, not to mention variations in moods and human psychology) that has tabulated the response of EVERY SINGLE JEW on the planet),
Well if various Christian sects and groups can get together and formulate statements then why not Jews? I mean real Jews not atheist fakes. All forms of Judaic expression are perfectly capable of tabulating a response. It does not have to be every Jew on the planet but it has to be every Jewish sect or group.
You said: The BURDEN of differentiation and distinction (between Jews, Judaism, Zionism) is on EVERY PERSON on the planet
NO IT IS NOT. Because for 77 years there has been no distinction between Jews, Judaism and Zionism and that is a problem for Jews.
You said: Hence, your "Logic, reason and reality must then conclude that Zionism, Judaism and Jews are welded together as a unit." is DEFUNCT
Quite the opposite. Until Judaism and its followers stand up united and reject Zionism and Israel then they are welded together as a unit.
You sid: (a) there are multiple permutations and combinations (combinatorial logic) on the different kinds of groupings possible concerning the 3 entities (Jews, Judaism, Zionism)
A Jew is a follower of Judaism and most Jews support Zionism and Israel. They are not separate but one.
You said:L This is already getting somewhat abstract (and I feel most people would have lost me by this point of time in the comment).
Yes it is.
>>"If they did not then they would rise up as a majority and condemn the Israeli State and separate themselves from it."
You said: This is SO ABSURD that it belies your understanding of reality, how social groups work and coordinate, how challenging organizing groups based on commonalities and differences is, and more.
What is absurd is a religion and its followers failing to condemn a State which commits genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, murder, torture, theft for 77 years in its name, and is the greatest intentional mass murderer of children in human history.
Rosslyn Ross, I can't respond to your latest comment at the location (https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/sorry-if-this-is-antisemitic-but/comment/120788899) since your friend, Tom, has BLOCKED me.
Hence, I shall respond to it here ->
>>"Zionist Israel claims to represent Judaism and Jews? That is absolute. It is a fact. It is not in doubt."
EXACTLY my point. This is what Zionists do. This is their Hasbara. Smart and critical thinking people SHOULD NOT fall for Zionist hasbara.
Let me repeat -> "Smart and critical thinking people SHOULD NOT fall for Zionist hasbara."
Zionists purposely CONFLATE Jews, Judaism, Zionism so that ALL Jews ALL over the world are BLAMED for the actions of 'the monstrosity and absolute EVIL that is Israel'. That is BY DESIGN. Hence, it is UNWISE to fall into this TRAP that the Zionists have made.
Some simple Yes/No questions:
(1) Do you agree that there are some some Jews that are Zionists?
(2) Do you agree that there are some Jews that are NOT Zionists?
(3) Are YOU, Roslyn Ross, able to distinguish between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism? I'm not talking about anyone else in the world being able to distinguish. I'm asking you DIRECTLY - are you able to make these distinctions? Or do you think Jews = Judaism = Zionism?
Your answers to the above (simple, straight-forward) questions will provide much insight into WHY you think the way you do.
>>"Since most Jews do not challenge that claim and there is no unified Judaic opposition"
It is really irrelevant what most Jews claim or what 'WE THINK' most Jews claim (since there is no rigorous, exhaustive poll/survey (which in itself is subject to sampling and bias issues, not to mention variations in moods and human psychology) that has tabulated the response of EVERY SINGLE JEW on the planet), we can only make guesstimates (we don't even know the margin of error for such statistical calculations) that could potentially be wildly inaccurate.
The BURDEN of differentiation and distinction (between Jews, Judaism, Zionism) is on EVERY PERSON on the planet (regardless of what a Jew or a person of Judaic faith or a Zionist believes or does not believe). Just as the burden of differentiation of 'different sects of Christianity or Islam' lies on the observer (when such differentiations are of importance to world events), the same applies to Jews of different belief systems.
Hence, your "Logic, reason and reality must then conclude that Zionism, Judaism and Jews are welded together as a unit." is DEFUNCT - i.e. there is no logic involved here. NONE. There is NO logic, reason, (and let's not even get into the subjectiveness and variations of reality and perceptions of reality) in ANY of this. But you would know this if you understood logic (even at a rudimentary level), as these are the basic steps of philosophical logic (and I doubt you are prepared to go into formal logic into all this - it requires axioms and symbolisms that I'm familiar with (as per my background in Computer Science)).
Hence, pure simple logic says the OPPOSITE - there is no welding - logic doesn't work on what someone believes or what someone says they believe - it works on mathematical principles. We are getting beyond the scope of what is conveniently discussable in this format without going into logic theory, but suffice to say that ->
(a) there are multiple permutations and combinations (combinatorial logic) on the different kinds of groupings possible concerning the 3 entities (Jews, Judaism, Zionism)
(b) Each such unique group (formed from the above permutation and combination) will have unique characteristics that will differ from other such groups (based on basic logic of groupings (i.e. sets) from from the different P/C (abbreviation for permutation/combination).
(c) Each such P/C group/set would be assigned a statistical calculation as to their beliefs.
(d) As per Set Theory, there will be intersections and unions amongst these different sets based on a particular set's belief systems overlapping (based on different criteria) with those of another set.
Hence, when the Math is all said and done, you will land up with multiple groups (eg. Zionists that are not Jews, Jews that do not believe in Judaism but are Zionists, Jews that believe in Judaism that are NOT Zionists, etc. etc. and much more complicated groupings based on sub-modalities of belief systems.
This is already getting somewhat abstract (and I feel most people would have lost me by this point of time in the comment).
To wrap up this point, all this goes to show that your 'WELDING' that you believe is ANYTHING BUT welding. It is a smorgasbord of unwelded groups (sets) that agree on some beliefs and disagree on others (simple example: think how some Orthodox Jews support Zionism and some don't).
So, there is NO LOGIC in the WORLD that can achieve this 'magical and fictional' welding that you claim. To deny this is to deny basic logic and math (which you seem to do SO OFTEN in most of your comments).
Q.E.D.
Roslyn Ross, based on your comments, I suggest you forget mentioning logic and reason in your comments - since you have none (or very little).
But go ahead and try your shit with people that have limited understanding of logic - they might actually fall for it (and apparently there seem to be quite a few in this world).
>>"If they did not then they would rise up as a majority and condemn the Israeli State and separate themselves from it."
This is SO ABSURD that it belies your understanding of reality, how social groups work and coordinate, how challenging organizing groups based on commonalities and differences is, and more.
But like I've said before - you are NOT an honest person, and you lack intellectual honesty AND integrity (not to mention an inadequate understdanding of historical analysis and historiography. All you have (and depend on) are your biases, your racist beliefs, your lived life experiences, your prejudices, and your narratives.
Hence, all this makes you the person you present yourself to be (and often try to hide the ugly aspects of it).
I am going to follow (from now on) the advice of another commentator on this article and what she said here (https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/sorry-if-this-is-antisemitic-but/comment/120774859)
I have no idea who Tom is and the fact we agree on some things does not make us friends.
You said:EXACTLY my point. This is what Zionists do. This is their Hasbara. Smart and critical thinking people SHOULD NOT fall for Zionist hasbara.
We agree that Israel claims to represent Judaism and Jews. The problem for you is most Jews also agree with that and fund, promote and support the State and call it the Jewish State. If Jews did not do that it would simply be hasbara, but, because Jews do agree with the Israeli claim then logically they are complicit.
You said:Zionists purposely CONFLATE Jews, Judaism, Zionism so that ALL Jews ALL over the world are BLAMED for the actions of 'the monstrosity and absolute EVIL that is Israel'. That is BY DESIGN.
Sure, but the problem is most Jews do not only allow them to do that they encourage and fund them to do that. So most Jews accept their claims and conflate is not the issue.
If Most Jews did not support Israel’s claims it would be a different matter, but they do support and promote those claims. And yes, Zionists may well want Jews to be blamed for what they do because their end goal is to terrify gullible Jews into upping stakes and moving as colonists to Palestine, and in the future, Lebanon and Syria.
You said:Hence, it is UNWISE to fall into this TRAP that the Zionists have made.
Since most Jews have fallen into the trap your statement is ridiculous.
Some simple Yes/No questions:
(1) Do you agree that there are some some Jews that are Zionists?
Yes. (But I think Zionist principles are entrenched in Judaism and so most Jews hold consciously and unconsciously Zionist principles)
(2) Do you agree that there are some Jews that are NOT Zionists?
Yes. But not many. (But I think Zionist principles are entrenched in Judaism and so most Jews hold consciously and unconsciously Zionist principles)
(3) Are YOU, Roslyn Ross, able to distinguish between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism?
Jews are followers of a religion; Judaism is a religion; Zionism is a fascist, racist political movement which draws on Judaism and Jewish beliefs. They are welded together.
You said:I'm not talking about anyone else in the world being able to distinguish. I'm asking you DIRECTLY - are you able to make these distinctions? Or do you think Jews = Judaism = Zionism?
If you do not believe in Judaism and its God you are not a Jew. Zionist principles are sourced in Judaic teachings. So, generally Jews do equal Judaism and equal Zionism with some rare and brave exceptions. I am talking about real Jews not the fake atheist/secular who claim to be Jews but are not.
Your answers to the above (simple, straight-forward) questions will provide much insight into WHY you think the way you do.
You said: It is really irrelevant what most Jews claim
It is not irrelevant. If a rogue State committed atrocities in the name of Christians and said it was the Christian State and most Christians did not reject that claim but instead supported it and funded the State then it would behove all Christians to come together to take action against the rogue State and its atrocities. Same for Jews.
You said: (since there is no rigorous, exhaustive poll/survey (which in itself is subject to sampling and bias issues, not to mention variations in moods and human psychology) that has tabulated the response of EVERY SINGLE JEW on the planet),
Well if various Christian sects and groups can get together and formulate statements then why not Jews? I mean real Jews not atheist fakes. All forms of Judaic expression are perfectly capable of tabulating a response. It does not have to be every Jew on the planet but it has to be every Jewish sect or group.
You said: The BURDEN of differentiation and distinction (between Jews, Judaism, Zionism) is on EVERY PERSON on the planet
NO IT IS NOT. Because for 77 years there has been no distinction between Jews, Judaism and Zionism and that is a problem for Jews.
You said: Hence, your "Logic, reason and reality must then conclude that Zionism, Judaism and Jews are welded together as a unit." is DEFUNCT
Quite the opposite. Until Judaism and its followers stand up united and reject Zionism and Israel then they are welded together as a unit.
You sid: (a) there are multiple permutations and combinations (combinatorial logic) on the different kinds of groupings possible concerning the 3 entities (Jews, Judaism, Zionism)
A Jew is a follower of Judaism and most Jews support Zionism and Israel. They are not separate but one.
You said:L This is already getting somewhat abstract (and I feel most people would have lost me by this point of time in the comment).
Yes it is.
>>"If they did not then they would rise up as a majority and condemn the Israeli State and separate themselves from it."
You said: This is SO ABSURD that it belies your understanding of reality, how social groups work and coordinate, how challenging organizing groups based on commonalities and differences is, and more.
What is absurd is a religion and its followers failing to condemn a State which commits genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, murder, torture, theft for 77 years in its name, and is the greatest intentional mass murderer of children in human history.
Well said, Roslyn!
LET US ALL BOW DOWN TO THE ALL-KNOWING CHANG.
Are you going to be trolling me too like Russian_bot?
Who the fuck would want to troll YOU, cunt?
BLOCKED!