Of course it is blurred. And the Zionists LOVE that it is blurred - as this blurring, this lack of distinctions, this lack of nuance - CREATES REAL anti-semitism (we are not talking about the fake anti-semitism that is all too common).
This REAL anti-semitism enables and empowers the Zionists - as they can now truthfully claim victimhood. WHY would you want to continue to let the Zionists get away with this CHARADE of false victimhood?
Do you not understand this strategy employed by the Zionists/Israelis/supporters of Israel and Zionism/Christian Zionists/etc. ?
Do you not understand how this plays into the hands of the VERY PEOPLE that we are trying to FIGHT AGAINST and STOP?
Why enable and add fuel to the Zionist victimhood narrative?
Please read Yasha Levine's very well researched articles before we continue this conversation. If they are paywalled, that's an issue I may not be able to resolve fairly. But as a Jew himself - albeit a left-leaning non-practicing Jew - he has done the deep dives into the texts and produced his own translations of some of them. It is his contention that Zionism - insofar as the notion that Jews are promised a SPECIFIC piece of real estate on Earth (something no other religion deigns to do) - is a core part of the dominant strain of Israeli and diaspora Judaism.
I get what you're trying to say, as it isn't rocket science and I see it every day, but as Caitlyn noted, the Israelis have done more to amplify anti-Jew thought around the world than any white supremo website could ever have hoped. And as long as I (or we) are not talking about shipping Jews off to camps or hurting them, intellectual rigor requires the honest reading of the texts and juxtaposing that with the actions and words of Zionists as well as Jews who claim not to be Zionist, but "support Israel's right to exist" - a mutually incompatible set of circumstances with only one real set of solutions: Ending the state of Israel insofar as it is an ethnosupremacist Jewish state with special rights for Jews or giving the Palestinians their own country on land currently controlled by the Zionists. The first step down that road is ascertaining what actual diaspora Jews and the governments in countries where they live and have influence are willing to say or do about it.
Well said and as Gideon Levy makes clear and I am talking about, the beliefs of Israelis and indeed their supporters is the welding together of Judaism, Zionism and Jewish beliefs.
Not sure what your point is or what you are trying to get across. No cultures are monolithic. No people are monolithic. Not Muslims, not Christians, not Jews, not Hindus, not even atheists.
To not be able to differentiate between Jews (tribe, not race), Judaism (religion) and Zionism (political ideology) is EXACTLY what the supporters of Israel (and Zionism) want to do.
There are many Jewish groups (in many Western countries) that are pro-Palestine and anti-genocide. There are also many Jewish groups that are anti-Palestine and pro-genocide. To NOT be able to distinguish and differentiate between these groups is a MISTAKE - not only for Jews (which is not really my concern now), but more so for the Palestinians and ALL that fight for the Palestinians.
Why is it important to differentiate between these Jewish groups with different loyalties and moralities? Because the Pro-Palestine and anti-Genocide groups (Jewish or otherwise) are ON THE SAME SIDE.
Why is this so difficult for some people to understand? If I were a Palestinian, I could use ALL THE HELP I could get - whether it comes from Jews or Christians or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Atheists or whatever.
Let me make a much shorter and to-the-point comment: This genocide situation and the problem of the Palestinians displaced, stolen from and murdered in a multi-state sanctioned campaign is something for ONE group to fix. Namely, diaspora and Israeli Jews and their most fervent supporters. ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path. It has nothing to do with Hindus, Muslims, Christians (except those Zionist ones), etc. Worldwide, but specifically Western and Israeli Jewry need to stand up and say "ENOUGH and STOP - Let's engage in good faith and with honest intentions." Until then, this IS a Jewish problem whether you like it or not.
>>"ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path."
And you know this how? Jews are a minority of the population. They alone cannot and will not be able to stop the Pro-Israel Zionists. They need our support and we need their support. It is that simple.
And it has to do with EVERY person on earth - whether Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheist or something else. We ALL need to UNITE. Leaving the anti-Zionists to do this (according to your probability calculations) is not only folly, but a strategy of asssured failure.
That you do not get this simple concept is astounding to me.
Nope. There is no other state on earth with the backing and direction of a small but very influential minority in other western post-colonial/imperial state(s) that openly agitates for the existence of a mono-theocratic race-based society in a SPECIFIC piece of real estate "promised" to them by their god.
Your apparent issue is that you cannot fathom that you're arguing with someone who loathes and detests thought such as what's promulgated at The Daily Stormer. You're not equipped to have an honest, rational debate about the situation with western Judaism and its inextricable link to the holocaust happening in Gaza. You want simple, black-or-white, right-or-wrong easy moral put-down contests. That isn't the case here.
There has been a strong movement to say, it is Zionism not Jews but that is bullshit. Most Jews I know in Australia have sent their kids to happy camps in Israel and friggin Occupied Palestine, as have many, probably most American Jews.
Who is going to argue that anyone will send their child to another country without making the effort to find out what is at work there? Only the truly stupid would not do so.
Nope - understand that it is CAPITALISM that enables this imperialism. It is Western powers that enables this. It is the U.S. Empire that enables this.
And if you imply that Zionists control the world and the U.S., then I guess we have nothing to talk about as you could believe such a thing only if you don't understand how Capitalism works.
You're in denial. That's not an Internet insult. It's an honest observation. Jews in the West are fully capable of ending this industrial scale slaughter. If you deny that then you're either deliberately being obfuscatory or you are not up to speed on reality.
>>"Jews in the West are fully capable of ending this industrial scale slaughter"
You are funny, aren't you?
Dream on and continue living in your own unrealistic universe. Believe whatever narratives you wish to believe that continue keeping you in 'whatever state you seem to be in'.
>>"Jews in the West are fully capable of ending this industrial scale slaughter"
Please don't continue making a fool of yourself with such statements - or do if you wish.
A major problem and indeed handicap to addressing the genocide in Palestine over 77 years is that it did and it does involve Judaism and Jews.
People have been reluctant to say that until the even greater horrors of the past 20 months but, as you say, and as I have said, Jews must stand up and be accountable and responsible for what has been done and is still being done in their name and the name of their religion.
The fact that Israeli atrocities create a situation where some people will blame all Jews for the actions of many and their fanatics does not bother Zionism or the Israelis because the more Jews are held accountable, blamed, then the more they scream anti-semitism and it justifies their paranoia and their delusion that they need their own State to survive.
It is only by the power of enough Jews taking a stand against the evil that is Israel and their own Jewish, Israeli and Zionist power agendas which have infiltrated Government, politics and media that the sewer which is Israel can be flushed clean and replaced.
I don't see it STRICTLY as a Jewish problem. Clearly what is being done to the Palestinians is, since it is being perpetrated by Jewish people. However, I see it more as a worldwide problem. All cultures witnessing what is happening are suffering, for the Palestinians, but also they are killing something precious within themselves for not standing up and speaking out about such horror. No, I don't think there is a lot that we can do, but we can do something. Clearly there is no indication that the Israeli government is going to solve their problem outside of genocide or expulsion. And just as clearly, the US will continue to send them all the weapons they need to destroy the Palestinians and their culture. Here at home AIPAC is not going to stand up one fine day and say, "Hey, this is immoral, we need to stop it." Nor will they stop threatening our institutions of higher learning w removal of funding unless they bring severe repercussions to those students who are protesting on behalf of the Palestinian cause. So, it does seem to me that the solution depends upon those outside the Jewish community as well as those within, and we should join the ranks of student protests demanding a reform to the apartheid state and that we divest from Israeli businesses. The growth of anti-Israel sentiment, divestment, and the halt in money and weapons to Israel are among the incentives of use.
Chang, let me make what may be a very uncomfortable to hear statement. It needs to be said. And I'll preface it with what I feel is needed and added context.
Jews occupy a rarified place politically, in media, finance, entertainment and government here in the west - especially considering they are 2-3% of the population, total. They have outsized influence compared to their numbers.
Back during the early to middle days of the BS US-led GWOT, many rightwingers and Jews made statements like "Well where are the GOOD Muslims standing up and speaking out against terrorism?!" Due to their elevated and outsized presence and platform, this was not an uncommon thing to see and hear Zionists, their supporters and many Jews on the right and center state. Yet Muslims had almost no voice and the acts of "terror" were fraught with credible allegations of fakery, misattribution, provocation and even false flags.
So my point is this: Western Jewry has a problem to confront given all of the above. As I noted, some very vocal and very ethically consistent members of "the tribe" (not my words, but used by you and others) are doing a great job and suffering persecution and excommunication. JVFP, B'Tselem, etc...again.
But western Judaism - the majority - strike me as both uniquely positioned and uniquely qualified to call out Israel's ongoing literal genocide being carried out in THEIR names. And yet, we can cite poll after poll, action after action, and inaction after inaction of a supposedly peace-based religion (but again, also "ethnic group") to demonstrate that not only are they NOT speaking out, but that they are using their position(s) to apologize or brush under the rug an actual, large scale GENOCIDE. NOT a few "terror" attacks which always seem to be immediately blamed on Muslims/Islam, but a live streamed, US-EU aided full scale ethnic cleansing/starvation/genocide being carried out ostensibly to protect a religious/ethnic group with great clout and power from one which has either virtually no power or clout or is infested with collaborationists like the Gulf Monarchies.
To put it shortly and bluntly, in light of research/commentary such as Yasha Levine's, Western Judaism has a real problem on their hands and so does Israel and its supporters. A real, legitimate, uncontestable problem. No other religion/ethnicity with that much clout, that big a platform, that much buy-in from western (current and former) colonialist/imperialist metropoles or governments, and if you continue to deny this, then you're part of the problem. People like Yasha Levine ARE NOT. And talking about or debating things is NOT the same as sending people to die in concentration camps (ala the Holocaust Industry - Norm Finkelstein - another Jew) or talking about expelling "Jews" from our countries.
Thank you. And to summarize the problem from another angle, as much as it sucks that it's the truth - both the slavery situation and civil rights movements would never have been resolved to any sufficient degree without WHITE people in the US either fighting the Confederates with guns or marching with the Black folks during the massive demonstrations, risking all of their lives. My point is that Jews are the only - THE ONLY - group of people in this world, however you define "the Jews" - who can truly give the needed momentum to the campaign to end the Israeli Zionist occupation of Palestine in a just and mutually agreed upon manner. By no means am I taking away the agency of remarkable Black people from the unknown to those such as Malcolm X and MLK Jr. It was THEIR fight and Jewish people were a huge part in the white contingent.
But until a sizeable portion of JEWS in the West and Israel stand up against what's happening in Palestine, then yes. Given all of the above context - this GENOCIDE is a JEWISH problem and not just an imperial one!
If one cannot differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (and nuance is required here - as there are overlaps and intersections and unions of all sorts - I'm referring to Venn Diagrams from Set Theory here), then they are making a mistake that is going to hurt Palestinians (and Muslims) in the present and the future.
Regardless of WHATEVER text you read or whomever you follow or whomever you quote, NO CULTURE ON EARTH is monolithic. Period. The world is too complex, people are too complex, human societies and cultures are too complex to believe in ANY monolithic narratives. Inspite of all this, people continue being lazy and believing simplistic narratives and refusing to differentiate between the permutations and combinations of all these groupings (Jewish or otherwise).
Just as Israelis confuse and conflate and propagandize their narratives to their advantage, there are many Zionists (including Christian Zionists) that do the same.
If you are on the side of the Palestinians (and I mean TRULY on the side of the Palestinians for the sake of Palestines and for no other reason), then you (and I mean EVERYONE) MUST make these distinctions.
I don't really need to read what Yasha Levine wrote.
Like I said before, if you don't understand SIMPLE LOGIC (and I know you have a hard time with logic based on some of your other beliefs), then it doesn't matter what you read.
Political Zionism is a new animal, that didn't exist from the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion against the Romans, until the era of Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. They had minimal influence within Judaism. Jewish faith and tradition spoke specifically to the coming of the Messiah - who would return all Jews to the Promised Land, in a divine fashion, "on the wings of eagles", thereby ending the EXILE. There was to be no activity by the Jewish people, in furthering this, on a political or practical level. Only prayer and righteousness was to be required, in order to get the Almighty to fulfill the long held aspirational goals of spiritual Zionism. Being some kind of secular/atheist - Yasha isn't really in his depth here.
The Exile and Diaspora are a punishment for stiff-necked, wickedness, worshiping false gods and idolatry. The Prophets warned, but the people wouldn't listen. Political Zionism is just another Golden Calf, for the modern era. There's zero in the Torah about David having a Star. Solomon had a "seal". The two triangles in occult teachings mean "as above, so below". However, in Leviticus and Amos, there is mentioned a "Star of Remphan" - which is another name for Saturn. And sure enough, if you look at one of the poles of Saturn, it has a 6 pointed star, that you may decide looks familiar. Saturn is also known as Chiun, and Moloch.
There is growing dislike of Zionist fake Jews genociding but it's spreading to real Jews a bit due to confusion about whats a fake jew vs a real Jew so intentionally blurred, plus the cowardly support of Zionist Ashkenazi non DNA Jews by Orthodox blood lined real Jews, their spiritual idealistic enemy(goes for prozionist christians as well) yet occuring to degrees due to extreme pressure tactics of Zionists and moral failure in percentage of orthodox Jews or secular real Jews(& alot of Christians).
Yet Zionists feed and depend on victim status but non bully Orthodox Jews are the ones to feel the wrath from both sides..All this could change if real Non Ashkenazi Jews who respect the old testament and hate ungodly Talmud and have many times more then measly 3.5 percent avg Jewish DNA of Zionists told the truth loud to the world and American christians of their oppressions by the Zionists and how real Jews are under a seize of sorts ie if they don't go along with intensest bully Zionists they'll be harmed or eliminated too they rightly fear is the unspoken truth, Hardly the Jewish Oasis promised to the blood lined emigrated to Isreal jews by the Ashkenazi to legitimize their farce Jewish homeland,what small a percentage relatively to Zionists they are that occupy Israel,a fraction of what was implied decades to world.
My concern is not anti-semitism (in our current context) because I agree with you that there is not much real anti-semitism.
My concern is the way anti-semitism plays into the hands of the Zionist narratives of VICTIMHOOD.
My concern is for the Palestinian people. I would NOT want to do ANYTHING that helps Zionists IN ANY WAY. I hate Zionists, I hate Israelis, I hate settler-colonialism. I hate these more than you would know.
And not being able to differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (all the different flavors) is something that HELPS Israel and Zionists. Hence, I make EVERY EFFORT to NOT help Israel or Zionists (anywhere in the world).
The much larger problem (by a wide margin) that the world is facing (and has been facing for a long time now) is Islamophbia.
Islamophobia has ALWAYS been more prominent than anti-semitism - partly due to the population of Muslims in comparison to the population of Jews in the world (but please correct me if I am wrong on this).
I have read Edward Said's excellent book "Orientalism" (which I recommend EVERYONE to read - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355190.Orientalism), and I don't talk out of my arse (and I am not insinuating that you do either - though I suspect your motives and don't trust you).
From Orientalism, "The idea of “the Orient” evolved from Western colonial powers. It is a politically dangerous and culturally biased idea. This concept continues to infect Western views of the Eastern world."
So go ahead and lecture me on whatever you wish, but I will CONTINUE TO INSIST on making the necessary distinction between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism because I CARE about the Palestinians - and the Pro-Palestine Jewish groups/factions/organizations can be some of our strongest allies in the fight against Israel, Zionists, and the U.S. Empire.
Just as non-Hindutva Hindus work and collaborate with Muslims to combat the hate-filled supremacist ideology of Hindutva, similarly non-Zionist and pro-Palestine Jews work and collaborate with other non-Zionists and anti-Israel people all over the world.
Hence the IMPORTANCE of making these distictions. If you cannot see the advantages and pragmatism behind this, then I'm afraid you are NOT TRULY on the side of the Palestinians (no matter how much or how loudly you protest and profess otherwise).
If you are concerned with the Palestinian problem then it behoves you to deal with the reality that Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together and create the evil that is Israel and enable the atrocities that it commits and has committed for 77 years.
Israel would never have survived the first decade without Jewish money and support and the power-factions of Zionists, Israelis and Jews in the US, UK and other countries made it possible for Israel to keep rampaging around Palestine and the Middle East in murderous frenzy.
It is Jews in the US, UK, Australia, Europe who are screaming that condemnation of Israel is anti-semitic. It is Jews controlling mainstream media and manipulating Governments and politicians that has allowed this genocide to go on for 20 months.
Yes Zionists have power but they are nothing without the backing of powerful Jewish agendas, groups and individuals.
>>"Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together"
All I can say Roslyn Ross, is that you are a SICKO. That's it. Your this statement alone creates your worldview and prevents you from being the kind of help the Palestinians (and the world) needs right now. Like I said before, you are MORE transparent than you realize.
Zionist Israel claims to represent Judaism and Jews? That is absolute. It is a fact. It is not in doubt. Israel is forever saying it is the homeland of every Jew on the planet and that it is the Jewish State.
Since most Jews do not challenge that claim and there is no unified Judaic opposition - some Jewish orthodox reject Israel and others embrace it; some Jews reject Israel but most embrace it.
The infiltration of Governments, politics and media by Jewish groups and agendas, which seek to silence condemnation of Israel and to promote the Zionist agenda, make it very clear that the power they possess is used in the name of Zionist Israel, code-name, Jewish State.
Logic, reason and reality must then conclude that Zionism, Judaism and Jews are welded together as a unit.
We can applaud the bravery of those few Jews who have always rejected Israel and those who condemn it today but they remain a minority.Ergo, most Jews support the State of Israel and that means they support what it does - occupation, colonisation, genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, torture, murder, theft, destruction, dispossession, sadistic cruelty and bestial savagery and most Jews support the intentional mass murder of children.
If they did not then they would rise up as a majority and condemn the Israeli State and separate themselves from it. But they do not. They scream anti-semitism and work to have protests in support of Palestine shut down.
I am more than happy to appear transparent in those statements.
The written works of Israeli Professor Shlomo Sand and other Jews tell us that most of the Jews and posers in today’s version of Israel (Eretz Israel) are not descendants of King David and thus have no legitimate Biblical claim to the land of Israel.
A small minority of Israelis may be actual descendants of the ancient Jews, and many of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., lived peacefully among the Palestinians for two millennia.
After the British Empire created Eretz Israel, Jews fleeing from Europe or Russia preferred to go to the UK, Argentina or the USA instead of Israel. Some of their Brits claimed to want to give the Jews of the world a home, as long as that home was not in England, Scotland or Ireland.
Just the fact that there are so many Christian Zionists should tell people this has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity. It is all about greed and personal advancement.
There is that simple greed ,paid off by Zionist , & elite Euro bankers etc,but no I assure you millions of USA christians taught they face hell of they stand in way of God's chosen lineage allegedly running Israel as Zionists, unaware of long battles between Zionists and Orthodox Jews and or seculars as well or that Zionists are only Jewish by culture intermingle ploys,plots going back only few hundred years and only officially about 1885 approx in their hexagram/Babylonian dark witch emblem matching flag which they lied and said was King David's mark when I'm fact it's the mark of The dark, occultic Baal, Moloch and Talmud that God spoke of us having to resist more then Lucifer, Satan himself as it embodied largely the entirety of the fallen angel attack on mankind.
Is it coincidence that the planet/fallen angel star Saturn was worshipped most of all of heavenly bodies said to be home to Apollo/Moloch/Baal and that Na sa + telescopes confirm has a twirling vortex tunnel thru it with a Hexagon shape beam always projecting towards Earth..(Amateur astronomers were first to announce it with govt denials of it's mainly supernatural existence!!
No,this is what it's matching, revelations, wars in heaven and earth,angel,demons mankind, wheat from chaffe forged, mysteries revealed,with spiritual armor rewarded to those who care of Gods creation and the good over evil purpose possible if only...you fill in the rest!
Of course it is blurred. And the Zionists LOVE that it is blurred - as this blurring, this lack of distinctions, this lack of nuance - CREATES REAL anti-semitism (we are not talking about the fake anti-semitism that is all too common).
This REAL anti-semitism enables and empowers the Zionists - as they can now truthfully claim victimhood. WHY would you want to continue to let the Zionists get away with this CHARADE of false victimhood?
Do you not understand this strategy employed by the Zionists/Israelis/supporters of Israel and Zionism/Christian Zionists/etc. ?
Do you not understand how this plays into the hands of the VERY PEOPLE that we are trying to FIGHT AGAINST and STOP?
Why enable and add fuel to the Zionist victimhood narrative?
Please read Yasha Levine's very well researched articles before we continue this conversation. If they are paywalled, that's an issue I may not be able to resolve fairly. But as a Jew himself - albeit a left-leaning non-practicing Jew - he has done the deep dives into the texts and produced his own translations of some of them. It is his contention that Zionism - insofar as the notion that Jews are promised a SPECIFIC piece of real estate on Earth (something no other religion deigns to do) - is a core part of the dominant strain of Israeli and diaspora Judaism.
I get what you're trying to say, as it isn't rocket science and I see it every day, but as Caitlyn noted, the Israelis have done more to amplify anti-Jew thought around the world than any white supremo website could ever have hoped. And as long as I (or we) are not talking about shipping Jews off to camps or hurting them, intellectual rigor requires the honest reading of the texts and juxtaposing that with the actions and words of Zionists as well as Jews who claim not to be Zionist, but "support Israel's right to exist" - a mutually incompatible set of circumstances with only one real set of solutions: Ending the state of Israel insofar as it is an ethnosupremacist Jewish state with special rights for Jews or giving the Palestinians their own country on land currently controlled by the Zionists. The first step down that road is ascertaining what actual diaspora Jews and the governments in countries where they live and have influence are willing to say or do about it.
Well said and as Gideon Levy makes clear and I am talking about, the beliefs of Israelis and indeed their supporters is the welding together of Judaism, Zionism and Jewish beliefs.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/620923954335390/?s=single_unit&__cft__[0]=AZVyJaMWIwLuf4yVXa_gCaWcrYW7-OgnwBVKxrpp1AXSvJPyUW1lG4gKjbfakt2lqXdsm_FWx_N_C9oGIB38sYopMfoF3Qh8rAUVuXOFpL7qgQm0ClP55YHpmwYmfFAA5fT4kKBQCPK1Nl9mU80qBYODcYjMevFymdWv4yLUC5sHwQb9oEM6vxfA1kC8VLf-65uuQXKh4gVTocbswPFdGPnOjEVUI02LeQ0bVBxVYHTYZaBLUgfcc1lrFNcnk6WoQjY&__tn__=H-R
Not sure what your point is or what you are trying to get across. No cultures are monolithic. No people are monolithic. Not Muslims, not Christians, not Jews, not Hindus, not even atheists.
To not be able to differentiate between Jews (tribe, not race), Judaism (religion) and Zionism (political ideology) is EXACTLY what the supporters of Israel (and Zionism) want to do.
There are many Jewish groups (in many Western countries) that are pro-Palestine and anti-genocide. There are also many Jewish groups that are anti-Palestine and pro-genocide. To NOT be able to distinguish and differentiate between these groups is a MISTAKE - not only for Jews (which is not really my concern now), but more so for the Palestinians and ALL that fight for the Palestinians.
Why is it important to differentiate between these Jewish groups with different loyalties and moralities? Because the Pro-Palestine and anti-Genocide groups (Jewish or otherwise) are ON THE SAME SIDE.
Why is this so difficult for some people to understand? If I were a Palestinian, I could use ALL THE HELP I could get - whether it comes from Jews or Christians or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Atheists or whatever.
Chang,
Let me make a much shorter and to-the-point comment: This genocide situation and the problem of the Palestinians displaced, stolen from and murdered in a multi-state sanctioned campaign is something for ONE group to fix. Namely, diaspora and Israeli Jews and their most fervent supporters. ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path. It has nothing to do with Hindus, Muslims, Christians (except those Zionist ones), etc. Worldwide, but specifically Western and Israeli Jewry need to stand up and say "ENOUGH and STOP - Let's engage in good faith and with honest intentions." Until then, this IS a Jewish problem whether you like it or not.
>>"ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path."
And you know this how? Jews are a minority of the population. They alone cannot and will not be able to stop the Pro-Israel Zionists. They need our support and we need their support. It is that simple.
And it has to do with EVERY person on earth - whether Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheist or something else. We ALL need to UNITE. Leaving the anti-Zionists to do this (according to your probability calculations) is not only folly, but a strategy of asssured failure.
That you do not get this simple concept is astounding to me.
Nope. There is no other state on earth with the backing and direction of a small but very influential minority in other western post-colonial/imperial state(s) that openly agitates for the existence of a mono-theocratic race-based society in a SPECIFIC piece of real estate "promised" to them by their god.
Your apparent issue is that you cannot fathom that you're arguing with someone who loathes and detests thought such as what's promulgated at The Daily Stormer. You're not equipped to have an honest, rational debate about the situation with western Judaism and its inextricable link to the holocaust happening in Gaza. You want simple, black-or-white, right-or-wrong easy moral put-down contests. That isn't the case here.
There has been a strong movement to say, it is Zionism not Jews but that is bullshit. Most Jews I know in Australia have sent their kids to happy camps in Israel and friggin Occupied Palestine, as have many, probably most American Jews.
Who is going to argue that anyone will send their child to another country without making the effort to find out what is at work there? Only the truly stupid would not do so.
Nope - understand that it is CAPITALISM that enables this imperialism. It is Western powers that enables this. It is the U.S. Empire that enables this.
And if you imply that Zionists control the world and the U.S., then I guess we have nothing to talk about as you could believe such a thing only if you don't understand how Capitalism works.
You're in denial. That's not an Internet insult. It's an honest observation. Jews in the West are fully capable of ending this industrial scale slaughter. If you deny that then you're either deliberately being obfuscatory or you are not up to speed on reality.
>>"Jews in the West are fully capable of ending this industrial scale slaughter"
You are funny, aren't you?
Dream on and continue living in your own unrealistic universe. Believe whatever narratives you wish to believe that continue keeping you in 'whatever state you seem to be in'.
>>"Jews in the West are fully capable of ending this industrial scale slaughter"
Please don't continue making a fool of yourself with such statements - or do if you wish.
A major problem and indeed handicap to addressing the genocide in Palestine over 77 years is that it did and it does involve Judaism and Jews.
People have been reluctant to say that until the even greater horrors of the past 20 months but, as you say, and as I have said, Jews must stand up and be accountable and responsible for what has been done and is still being done in their name and the name of their religion.
The fact that Israeli atrocities create a situation where some people will blame all Jews for the actions of many and their fanatics does not bother Zionism or the Israelis because the more Jews are held accountable, blamed, then the more they scream anti-semitism and it justifies their paranoia and their delusion that they need their own State to survive.
It is only by the power of enough Jews taking a stand against the evil that is Israel and their own Jewish, Israeli and Zionist power agendas which have infiltrated Government, politics and media that the sewer which is Israel can be flushed clean and replaced.
I don't see it STRICTLY as a Jewish problem. Clearly what is being done to the Palestinians is, since it is being perpetrated by Jewish people. However, I see it more as a worldwide problem. All cultures witnessing what is happening are suffering, for the Palestinians, but also they are killing something precious within themselves for not standing up and speaking out about such horror. No, I don't think there is a lot that we can do, but we can do something. Clearly there is no indication that the Israeli government is going to solve their problem outside of genocide or expulsion. And just as clearly, the US will continue to send them all the weapons they need to destroy the Palestinians and their culture. Here at home AIPAC is not going to stand up one fine day and say, "Hey, this is immoral, we need to stop it." Nor will they stop threatening our institutions of higher learning w removal of funding unless they bring severe repercussions to those students who are protesting on behalf of the Palestinian cause. So, it does seem to me that the solution depends upon those outside the Jewish community as well as those within, and we should join the ranks of student protests demanding a reform to the apartheid state and that we divest from Israeli businesses. The growth of anti-Israel sentiment, divestment, and the halt in money and weapons to Israel are among the incentives of use.
The bible says thou shalt not kill. Funny how so many ignore that.
Chang, let me make what may be a very uncomfortable to hear statement. It needs to be said. And I'll preface it with what I feel is needed and added context.
Jews occupy a rarified place politically, in media, finance, entertainment and government here in the west - especially considering they are 2-3% of the population, total. They have outsized influence compared to their numbers.
Back during the early to middle days of the BS US-led GWOT, many rightwingers and Jews made statements like "Well where are the GOOD Muslims standing up and speaking out against terrorism?!" Due to their elevated and outsized presence and platform, this was not an uncommon thing to see and hear Zionists, their supporters and many Jews on the right and center state. Yet Muslims had almost no voice and the acts of "terror" were fraught with credible allegations of fakery, misattribution, provocation and even false flags.
So my point is this: Western Jewry has a problem to confront given all of the above. As I noted, some very vocal and very ethically consistent members of "the tribe" (not my words, but used by you and others) are doing a great job and suffering persecution and excommunication. JVFP, B'Tselem, etc...again.
But western Judaism - the majority - strike me as both uniquely positioned and uniquely qualified to call out Israel's ongoing literal genocide being carried out in THEIR names. And yet, we can cite poll after poll, action after action, and inaction after inaction of a supposedly peace-based religion (but again, also "ethnic group") to demonstrate that not only are they NOT speaking out, but that they are using their position(s) to apologize or brush under the rug an actual, large scale GENOCIDE. NOT a few "terror" attacks which always seem to be immediately blamed on Muslims/Islam, but a live streamed, US-EU aided full scale ethnic cleansing/starvation/genocide being carried out ostensibly to protect a religious/ethnic group with great clout and power from one which has either virtually no power or clout or is infested with collaborationists like the Gulf Monarchies.
To put it shortly and bluntly, in light of research/commentary such as Yasha Levine's, Western Judaism has a real problem on their hands and so does Israel and its supporters. A real, legitimate, uncontestable problem. No other religion/ethnicity with that much clout, that big a platform, that much buy-in from western (current and former) colonialist/imperialist metropoles or governments, and if you continue to deny this, then you're part of the problem. People like Yasha Levine ARE NOT. And talking about or debating things is NOT the same as sending people to die in concentration camps (ala the Holocaust Industry - Norm Finkelstein - another Jew) or talking about expelling "Jews" from our countries.
Eloquently and succinctly put.
Thank you. And to summarize the problem from another angle, as much as it sucks that it's the truth - both the slavery situation and civil rights movements would never have been resolved to any sufficient degree without WHITE people in the US either fighting the Confederates with guns or marching with the Black folks during the massive demonstrations, risking all of their lives. My point is that Jews are the only - THE ONLY - group of people in this world, however you define "the Jews" - who can truly give the needed momentum to the campaign to end the Israeli Zionist occupation of Palestine in a just and mutually agreed upon manner. By no means am I taking away the agency of remarkable Black people from the unknown to those such as Malcolm X and MLK Jr. It was THEIR fight and Jewish people were a huge part in the white contingent.
But until a sizeable portion of JEWS in the West and Israel stand up against what's happening in Palestine, then yes. Given all of the above context - this GENOCIDE is a JEWISH problem and not just an imperial one!
Totally agree. Your conclusions are sourced in facts, reason and reality.
Tom - it's REALLY SIMPLE, really.
If one cannot differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (and nuance is required here - as there are overlaps and intersections and unions of all sorts - I'm referring to Venn Diagrams from Set Theory here), then they are making a mistake that is going to hurt Palestinians (and Muslims) in the present and the future.
Regardless of WHATEVER text you read or whomever you follow or whomever you quote, NO CULTURE ON EARTH is monolithic. Period. The world is too complex, people are too complex, human societies and cultures are too complex to believe in ANY monolithic narratives. Inspite of all this, people continue being lazy and believing simplistic narratives and refusing to differentiate between the permutations and combinations of all these groupings (Jewish or otherwise).
Just as Israelis confuse and conflate and propagandize their narratives to their advantage, there are many Zionists (including Christian Zionists) that do the same.
If you are on the side of the Palestinians (and I mean TRULY on the side of the Palestinians for the sake of Palestines and for no other reason), then you (and I mean EVERYONE) MUST make these distinctions.
Sorry but that doesn't address what I said at all. See my more recent reply and let me know if you ACTUALLY read what Yasha Levine wrote!
I don't really need to read what Yasha Levine wrote.
Like I said before, if you don't understand SIMPLE LOGIC (and I know you have a hard time with logic based on some of your other beliefs), then it doesn't matter what you read.
Political Zionism is a new animal, that didn't exist from the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion against the Romans, until the era of Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. They had minimal influence within Judaism. Jewish faith and tradition spoke specifically to the coming of the Messiah - who would return all Jews to the Promised Land, in a divine fashion, "on the wings of eagles", thereby ending the EXILE. There was to be no activity by the Jewish people, in furthering this, on a political or practical level. Only prayer and righteousness was to be required, in order to get the Almighty to fulfill the long held aspirational goals of spiritual Zionism. Being some kind of secular/atheist - Yasha isn't really in his depth here.
The Exile and Diaspora are a punishment for stiff-necked, wickedness, worshiping false gods and idolatry. The Prophets warned, but the people wouldn't listen. Political Zionism is just another Golden Calf, for the modern era. There's zero in the Torah about David having a Star. Solomon had a "seal". The two triangles in occult teachings mean "as above, so below". However, in Leviticus and Amos, there is mentioned a "Star of Remphan" - which is another name for Saturn. And sure enough, if you look at one of the poles of Saturn, it has a 6 pointed star, that you may decide looks familiar. Saturn is also known as Chiun, and Moloch.
There is so little real anti semitism, hatred of Judaism and Jews that it is probably time to put it away as a concept.
The religion which is persecuted today is Islam. That is where our focus needs to be.
There is growing dislike of Zionist fake Jews genociding but it's spreading to real Jews a bit due to confusion about whats a fake jew vs a real Jew so intentionally blurred, plus the cowardly support of Zionist Ashkenazi non DNA Jews by Orthodox blood lined real Jews, their spiritual idealistic enemy(goes for prozionist christians as well) yet occuring to degrees due to extreme pressure tactics of Zionists and moral failure in percentage of orthodox Jews or secular real Jews(& alot of Christians).
Yet Zionists feed and depend on victim status but non bully Orthodox Jews are the ones to feel the wrath from both sides..All this could change if real Non Ashkenazi Jews who respect the old testament and hate ungodly Talmud and have many times more then measly 3.5 percent avg Jewish DNA of Zionists told the truth loud to the world and American christians of their oppressions by the Zionists and how real Jews are under a seize of sorts ie if they don't go along with intensest bully Zionists they'll be harmed or eliminated too they rightly fear is the unspoken truth, Hardly the Jewish Oasis promised to the blood lined emigrated to Isreal jews by the Ashkenazi to legitimize their farce Jewish homeland,what small a percentage relatively to Zionists they are that occupy Israel,a fraction of what was implied decades to world.
My concern is not anti-semitism (in our current context) because I agree with you that there is not much real anti-semitism.
My concern is the way anti-semitism plays into the hands of the Zionist narratives of VICTIMHOOD.
My concern is for the Palestinian people. I would NOT want to do ANYTHING that helps Zionists IN ANY WAY. I hate Zionists, I hate Israelis, I hate settler-colonialism. I hate these more than you would know.
And not being able to differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (all the different flavors) is something that HELPS Israel and Zionists. Hence, I make EVERY EFFORT to NOT help Israel or Zionists (anywhere in the world).
The much larger problem (by a wide margin) that the world is facing (and has been facing for a long time now) is Islamophbia.
Islamophobia has ALWAYS been more prominent than anti-semitism - partly due to the population of Muslims in comparison to the population of Jews in the world (but please correct me if I am wrong on this).
I have read Edward Said's excellent book "Orientalism" (which I recommend EVERYONE to read - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355190.Orientalism), and I don't talk out of my arse (and I am not insinuating that you do either - though I suspect your motives and don't trust you).
From Orientalism, "The idea of “the Orient” evolved from Western colonial powers. It is a politically dangerous and culturally biased idea. This concept continues to infect Western views of the Eastern world."
So go ahead and lecture me on whatever you wish, but I will CONTINUE TO INSIST on making the necessary distinction between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism because I CARE about the Palestinians - and the Pro-Palestine Jewish groups/factions/organizations can be some of our strongest allies in the fight against Israel, Zionists, and the U.S. Empire.
Just as non-Hindutva Hindus work and collaborate with Muslims to combat the hate-filled supremacist ideology of Hindutva, similarly non-Zionist and pro-Palestine Jews work and collaborate with other non-Zionists and anti-Israel people all over the world.
Hence the IMPORTANCE of making these distictions. If you cannot see the advantages and pragmatism behind this, then I'm afraid you are NOT TRULY on the side of the Palestinians (no matter how much or how loudly you protest and profess otherwise).
If you are concerned with the Palestinian problem then it behoves you to deal with the reality that Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together and create the evil that is Israel and enable the atrocities that it commits and has committed for 77 years.
Israel would never have survived the first decade without Jewish money and support and the power-factions of Zionists, Israelis and Jews in the US, UK and other countries made it possible for Israel to keep rampaging around Palestine and the Middle East in murderous frenzy.
It is Jews in the US, UK, Australia, Europe who are screaming that condemnation of Israel is anti-semitic. It is Jews controlling mainstream media and manipulating Governments and politicians that has allowed this genocide to go on for 20 months.
Yes Zionists have power but they are nothing without the backing of powerful Jewish agendas, groups and individuals.
>>"Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together"
All I can say Roslyn Ross, is that you are a SICKO. That's it. Your this statement alone creates your worldview and prevents you from being the kind of help the Palestinians (and the world) needs right now. Like I said before, you are MORE transparent than you realize.
Zionist Israel claims to represent Judaism and Jews? That is absolute. It is a fact. It is not in doubt. Israel is forever saying it is the homeland of every Jew on the planet and that it is the Jewish State.
Since most Jews do not challenge that claim and there is no unified Judaic opposition - some Jewish orthodox reject Israel and others embrace it; some Jews reject Israel but most embrace it.
The infiltration of Governments, politics and media by Jewish groups and agendas, which seek to silence condemnation of Israel and to promote the Zionist agenda, make it very clear that the power they possess is used in the name of Zionist Israel, code-name, Jewish State.
Logic, reason and reality must then conclude that Zionism, Judaism and Jews are welded together as a unit.
We can applaud the bravery of those few Jews who have always rejected Israel and those who condemn it today but they remain a minority.Ergo, most Jews support the State of Israel and that means they support what it does - occupation, colonisation, genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, torture, murder, theft, destruction, dispossession, sadistic cruelty and bestial savagery and most Jews support the intentional mass murder of children.
If they did not then they would rise up as a majority and condemn the Israeli State and separate themselves from it. But they do not. They scream anti-semitism and work to have protests in support of Palestine shut down.
I am more than happy to appear transparent in those statements.
The written works of Israeli Professor Shlomo Sand and other Jews tell us that most of the Jews and posers in today’s version of Israel (Eretz Israel) are not descendants of King David and thus have no legitimate Biblical claim to the land of Israel.
A small minority of Israelis may be actual descendants of the ancient Jews, and many of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., lived peacefully among the Palestinians for two millennia.
After the British Empire created Eretz Israel, Jews fleeing from Europe or Russia preferred to go to the UK, Argentina or the USA instead of Israel. Some of their Brits claimed to want to give the Jews of the world a home, as long as that home was not in England, Scotland or Ireland.
Just the fact that there are so many Christian Zionists should tell people this has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity. It is all about greed and personal advancement.
There is that simple greed ,paid off by Zionist , & elite Euro bankers etc,but no I assure you millions of USA christians taught they face hell of they stand in way of God's chosen lineage allegedly running Israel as Zionists, unaware of long battles between Zionists and Orthodox Jews and or seculars as well or that Zionists are only Jewish by culture intermingle ploys,plots going back only few hundred years and only officially about 1885 approx in their hexagram/Babylonian dark witch emblem matching flag which they lied and said was King David's mark when I'm fact it's the mark of The dark, occultic Baal, Moloch and Talmud that God spoke of us having to resist more then Lucifer, Satan himself as it embodied largely the entirety of the fallen angel attack on mankind.
Is it coincidence that the planet/fallen angel star Saturn was worshipped most of all of heavenly bodies said to be home to Apollo/Moloch/Baal and that Na sa + telescopes confirm has a twirling vortex tunnel thru it with a Hexagon shape beam always projecting towards Earth..(Amateur astronomers were first to announce it with govt denials of it's mainly supernatural existence!!
No,this is what it's matching, revelations, wars in heaven and earth,angel,demons mankind, wheat from chaffe forged, mysteries revealed,with spiritual armor rewarded to those who care of Gods creation and the good over evil purpose possible if only...you fill in the rest!
Sometimes it is difficult to prevent our anger and outrage from causing us to be rash. They play the game masterfully.