So why don't you go and ASK them instead of pontificating in EVERY SINGLE POST and purposely conflating Jews and Judaism and Zionism into ONE thing without distinctions? You have a habit and history of doing this Roslyn Ross, and we have had arguments about it.
But you cannot help yourself. You bring it up EVERY CHANCE YOU GET - as if there is some kind of pathological need WITHIN YOU to purposefully (and surreptitiously) turn the discussion around to the SAME topic AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.
Is it possible for you to FOCUS on Palestinians more than on your intrinsic Jew-hatred? (Note here that I am NOT accusing you of anti-semitism here - which comes in many forms, but of Jew-hatred). I meant this as a rhetorical question, since I know (over multiple discussions, comments, and posts) that this (and your white-supremacy and pro-colonial stance) is something that seem to be the focus of your life.
FOCUS on PALESTINE! FOCUS on GAZA! FOCUS on bringing people together! FOCUS on nuance! FOCUS on LOVE of ALL PEOPLE, and LOVE of people of ALL COLORS and LOVE of ALL CULTURES (can I make an exception here for Israeli culture?)
So at the very least, prominent Jews who claim not to be Zionists, but do support Israel would like to have it both ways, depending on the conversation. At the most, Zionism is baked into ancient Judaism in a manner that is far beyond the ability of anyone to refute in the form of a comment at a website.
Of course it is blurred. And the Zionists LOVE that it is blurred - as this blurring, this lack of distinctions, this lack of nuance - CREATES REAL anti-semitism (we are not talking about the fake anti-semitism that is all too common).
This REAL anti-semitism enables and empowers the Zionists - as they can now truthfully claim victimhood. WHY would you want to continue to let the Zionists get away with this CHARADE of false victimhood?
Do you not understand this strategy employed by the Zionists/Israelis/supporters of Israel and Zionism/Christian Zionists/etc. ?
Do you not understand how this plays into the hands of the VERY PEOPLE that we are trying to FIGHT AGAINST and STOP?
Why enable and add fuel to the Zionist victimhood narrative?
Please read Yasha Levine's very well researched articles before we continue this conversation. If they are paywalled, that's an issue I may not be able to resolve fairly. But as a Jew himself - albeit a left-leaning non-practicing Jew - he has done the deep dives into the texts and produced his own translations of some of them. It is his contention that Zionism - insofar as the notion that Jews are promised a SPECIFIC piece of real estate on Earth (something no other religion deigns to do) - is a core part of the dominant strain of Israeli and diaspora Judaism.
I get what you're trying to say, as it isn't rocket science and I see it every day, but as Caitlyn noted, the Israelis have done more to amplify anti-Jew thought around the world than any white supremo website could ever have hoped. And as long as I (or we) are not talking about shipping Jews off to camps or hurting them, intellectual rigor requires the honest reading of the texts and juxtaposing that with the actions and words of Zionists as well as Jews who claim not to be Zionist, but "support Israel's right to exist" - a mutually incompatible set of circumstances with only one real set of solutions: Ending the state of Israel insofar as it is an ethnosupremacist Jewish state with special rights for Jews or giving the Palestinians their own country on land currently controlled by the Zionists. The first step down that road is ascertaining what actual diaspora Jews and the governments in countries where they live and have influence are willing to say or do about it.
Well said and as Gideon Levy makes clear and I am talking about, the beliefs of Israelis and indeed their supporters is the welding together of Judaism, Zionism and Jewish beliefs.
Not sure what your point is or what you are trying to get across. No cultures are monolithic. No people are monolithic. Not Muslims, not Christians, not Jews, not Hindus, not even atheists.
To not be able to differentiate between Jews (tribe, not race), Judaism (religion) and Zionism (political ideology) is EXACTLY what the supporters of Israel (and Zionism) want to do.
There are many Jewish groups (in many Western countries) that are pro-Palestine and anti-genocide. There are also many Jewish groups that are anti-Palestine and pro-genocide. To NOT be able to distinguish and differentiate between these groups is a MISTAKE - not only for Jews (which is not really my concern now), but more so for the Palestinians and ALL that fight for the Palestinians.
Why is it important to differentiate between these Jewish groups with different loyalties and moralities? Because the Pro-Palestine and anti-Genocide groups (Jewish or otherwise) are ON THE SAME SIDE.
Why is this so difficult for some people to understand? If I were a Palestinian, I could use ALL THE HELP I could get - whether it comes from Jews or Christians or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Atheists or whatever.
Let me make a much shorter and to-the-point comment: This genocide situation and the problem of the Palestinians displaced, stolen from and murdered in a multi-state sanctioned campaign is something for ONE group to fix. Namely, diaspora and Israeli Jews and their most fervent supporters. ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path. It has nothing to do with Hindus, Muslims, Christians (except those Zionist ones), etc. Worldwide, but specifically Western and Israeli Jewry need to stand up and say "ENOUGH and STOP - Let's engage in good faith and with honest intentions." Until then, this IS a Jewish problem whether you like it or not.
>>"ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path."
And you know this how? Jews are a minority of the population. They alone cannot and will not be able to stop the Pro-Israel Zionists. They need our support and we need their support. It is that simple.
And it has to do with EVERY person on earth - whether Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheist or something else. We ALL need to UNITE. Leaving the anti-Zionists to do this (according to your probability calculations) is not only folly, but a strategy of asssured failure.
That you do not get this simple concept is astounding to me.
A major problem and indeed handicap to addressing the genocide in Palestine over 77 years is that it did and it does involve Judaism and Jews.
People have been reluctant to say that until the even greater horrors of the past 20 months but, as you say, and as I have said, Jews must stand up and be accountable and responsible for what has been done and is still being done in their name and the name of their religion.
The fact that Israeli atrocities create a situation where some people will blame all Jews for the actions of many and their fanatics does not bother Zionism or the Israelis because the more Jews are held accountable, blamed, then the more they scream anti-semitism and it justifies their paranoia and their delusion that they need their own State to survive.
It is only by the power of enough Jews taking a stand against the evil that is Israel and their own Jewish, Israeli and Zionist power agendas which have infiltrated Government, politics and media that the sewer which is Israel can be flushed clean and replaced.
I don't see it STRICTLY as a Jewish problem. Clearly what is being done to the Palestinians is, since it is being perpetrated by Jewish people. However, I see it more as a worldwide problem. All cultures witnessing what is happening are suffering, for the Palestinians, but also they are killing something precious within themselves for not standing up and speaking out about such horror. No, I don't think there is a lot that we can do, but we can do something. Clearly there is no indication that the Israeli government is going to solve their problem outside of genocide or expulsion. And just as clearly, the US will continue to send them all the weapons they need to destroy the Palestinians and their culture. Here at home AIPAC is not going to stand up one fine day and say, "Hey, this is immoral, we need to stop it." Nor will they stop threatening our institutions of higher learning w removal of funding unless they bring severe repercussions to those students who are protesting on behalf of the Palestinian cause. So, it does seem to me that the solution depends upon those outside the Jewish community as well as those within, and we should join the ranks of student protests demanding a reform to the apartheid state and that we divest from Israeli businesses. The growth of anti-Israel sentiment, divestment, and the halt in money and weapons to Israel are among the incentives of use.
Chang, let me make what may be a very uncomfortable to hear statement. It needs to be said. And I'll preface it with what I feel is needed and added context.
Jews occupy a rarified place politically, in media, finance, entertainment and government here in the west - especially considering they are 2-3% of the population, total. They have outsized influence compared to their numbers.
Back during the early to middle days of the BS US-led GWOT, many rightwingers and Jews made statements like "Well where are the GOOD Muslims standing up and speaking out against terrorism?!" Due to their elevated and outsized presence and platform, this was not an uncommon thing to see and hear Zionists, their supporters and many Jews on the right and center state. Yet Muslims had almost no voice and the acts of "terror" were fraught with credible allegations of fakery, misattribution, provocation and even false flags.
So my point is this: Western Jewry has a problem to confront given all of the above. As I noted, some very vocal and very ethically consistent members of "the tribe" (not my words, but used by you and others) are doing a great job and suffering persecution and excommunication. JVFP, B'Tselem, etc...again.
But western Judaism - the majority - strike me as both uniquely positioned and uniquely qualified to call out Israel's ongoing literal genocide being carried out in THEIR names. And yet, we can cite poll after poll, action after action, and inaction after inaction of a supposedly peace-based religion (but again, also "ethnic group") to demonstrate that not only are they NOT speaking out, but that they are using their position(s) to apologize or brush under the rug an actual, large scale GENOCIDE. NOT a few "terror" attacks which always seem to be immediately blamed on Muslims/Islam, but a live streamed, US-EU aided full scale ethnic cleansing/starvation/genocide being carried out ostensibly to protect a religious/ethnic group with great clout and power from one which has either virtually no power or clout or is infested with collaborationists like the Gulf Monarchies.
To put it shortly and bluntly, in light of research/commentary such as Yasha Levine's, Western Judaism has a real problem on their hands and so does Israel and its supporters. A real, legitimate, uncontestable problem. No other religion/ethnicity with that much clout, that big a platform, that much buy-in from western (current and former) colonialist/imperialist metropoles or governments, and if you continue to deny this, then you're part of the problem. People like Yasha Levine ARE NOT. And talking about or debating things is NOT the same as sending people to die in concentration camps (ala the Holocaust Industry - Norm Finkelstein - another Jew) or talking about expelling "Jews" from our countries.
If one cannot differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (and nuance is required here - as there are overlaps and intersections and unions of all sorts - I'm referring to Venn Diagrams from Set Theory here), then they are making a mistake that is going to hurt Palestinians (and Muslims) in the present and the future.
Regardless of WHATEVER text you read or whomever you follow or whomever you quote, NO CULTURE ON EARTH is monolithic. Period. The world is too complex, people are too complex, human societies and cultures are too complex to believe in ANY monolithic narratives. Inspite of all this, people continue being lazy and believing simplistic narratives and refusing to differentiate between the permutations and combinations of all these groupings (Jewish or otherwise).
Just as Israelis confuse and conflate and propagandize their narratives to their advantage, there are many Zionists (including Christian Zionists) that do the same.
If you are on the side of the Palestinians (and I mean TRULY on the side of the Palestinians for the sake of Palestines and for no other reason), then you (and I mean EVERYONE) MUST make these distinctions.
Political Zionism is a new animal, that didn't exist from the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion against the Romans, until the era of Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. They had minimal influence within Judaism. Jewish faith and tradition spoke specifically to the coming of the Messiah - who would return all Jews to the Promised Land, in a divine fashion, "on the wings of eagles", thereby ending the EXILE. There was to be no activity by the Jewish people, in furthering this, on a political or practical level. Only prayer and righteousness was to be required, in order to get the Almighty to fulfill the long held aspirational goals of spiritual Zionism. Being some kind of secular/atheist - Yasha isn't really in his depth here.
The Exile and Diaspora are a punishment for stiff-necked, wickedness, worshiping false gods and idolatry. The Prophets warned, but the people wouldn't listen. Political Zionism is just another Golden Calf, for the modern era. There's zero in the Torah about David having a Star. Solomon had a "seal". The two triangles in occult teachings mean "as above, so below". However, in Leviticus and Amos, there is mentioned a "Star of Remphan" - which is another name for Saturn. And sure enough, if you look at one of the poles of Saturn, it has a 6 pointed star, that you may decide looks familiar. Saturn is also known as Chiun, and Moloch.
There is growing dislike of Zionist fake Jews genociding but it's spreading to real Jews a bit due to confusion about whats a fake jew vs a real Jew so intentionally blurred, plus the cowardly support of Zionist Ashkenazi non DNA Jews by Orthodox blood lined real Jews, their spiritual idealistic enemy(goes for prozionist christians as well) yet occuring to degrees due to extreme pressure tactics of Zionists and moral failure in percentage of orthodox Jews or secular real Jews(& alot of Christians).
Yet Zionists feed and depend on victim status but non bully Orthodox Jews are the ones to feel the wrath from both sides..All this could change if real Non Ashkenazi Jews who respect the old testament and hate ungodly Talmud and have many times more then measly 3.5 percent avg Jewish DNA of Zionists told the truth loud to the world and American christians of their oppressions by the Zionists and how real Jews are under a seize of sorts ie if they don't go along with intensest bully Zionists they'll be harmed or eliminated too they rightly fear is the unspoken truth, Hardly the Jewish Oasis promised to the blood lined emigrated to Isreal jews by the Ashkenazi to legitimize their farce Jewish homeland,what small a percentage relatively to Zionists they are that occupy Israel,a fraction of what was implied decades to world.
My concern is not anti-semitism (in our current context) because I agree with you that there is not much real anti-semitism.
My concern is the way anti-semitism plays into the hands of the Zionist narratives of VICTIMHOOD.
My concern is for the Palestinian people. I would NOT want to do ANYTHING that helps Zionists IN ANY WAY. I hate Zionists, I hate Israelis, I hate settler-colonialism. I hate these more than you would know.
And not being able to differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (all the different flavors) is something that HELPS Israel and Zionists. Hence, I make EVERY EFFORT to NOT help Israel or Zionists (anywhere in the world).
The much larger problem (by a wide margin) that the world is facing (and has been facing for a long time now) is Islamophbia.
Islamophobia has ALWAYS been more prominent than anti-semitism - partly due to the population of Muslims in comparison to the population of Jews in the world (but please correct me if I am wrong on this).
I have read Edward Said's excellent book "Orientalism" (which I recommend EVERYONE to read - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355190.Orientalism), and I don't talk out of my arse (and I am not insinuating that you do either - though I suspect your motives and don't trust you).
From Orientalism, "The idea of “the Orient” evolved from Western colonial powers. It is a politically dangerous and culturally biased idea. This concept continues to infect Western views of the Eastern world."
So go ahead and lecture me on whatever you wish, but I will CONTINUE TO INSIST on making the necessary distinction between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism because I CARE about the Palestinians - and the Pro-Palestine Jewish groups/factions/organizations can be some of our strongest allies in the fight against Israel, Zionists, and the U.S. Empire.
Just as non-Hindutva Hindus work and collaborate with Muslims to combat the hate-filled supremacist ideology of Hindutva, similarly non-Zionist and pro-Palestine Jews work and collaborate with other non-Zionists and anti-Israel people all over the world.
Hence the IMPORTANCE of making these distictions. If you cannot see the advantages and pragmatism behind this, then I'm afraid you are NOT TRULY on the side of the Palestinians (no matter how much or how loudly you protest and profess otherwise).
If you are concerned with the Palestinian problem then it behoves you to deal with the reality that Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together and create the evil that is Israel and enable the atrocities that it commits and has committed for 77 years.
Israel would never have survived the first decade without Jewish money and support and the power-factions of Zionists, Israelis and Jews in the US, UK and other countries made it possible for Israel to keep rampaging around Palestine and the Middle East in murderous frenzy.
It is Jews in the US, UK, Australia, Europe who are screaming that condemnation of Israel is anti-semitic. It is Jews controlling mainstream media and manipulating Governments and politicians that has allowed this genocide to go on for 20 months.
Yes Zionists have power but they are nothing without the backing of powerful Jewish agendas, groups and individuals.
>>"Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together"
All I can say Roslyn Ross, is that you are a SICKO. That's it. Your this statement alone creates your worldview and prevents you from being the kind of help the Palestinians (and the world) needs right now. Like I said before, you are MORE transparent than you realize.
The written works of Israeli Professor Shlomo Sand and other Jews tell us that most of the Jews and posers in today’s version of Israel (Eretz Israel) are not descendants of King David and thus have no legitimate Biblical claim to the land of Israel.
A small minority of Israelis may be actual descendants of the ancient Jews, and many of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., lived peacefully among the Palestinians for two millennia.
After the British Empire created Eretz Israel, Jews fleeing from Europe or Russia preferred to go to the UK, Argentina or the USA instead of Israel. Some of their Brits claimed to want to give the Jews of the world a home, as long as that home was not in England, Scotland or Ireland.
Just the fact that there are so many Christian Zionists should tell people this has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity. It is all about greed and personal advancement.
There is that simple greed ,paid off by Zionist , & elite Euro bankers etc,but no I assure you millions of USA christians taught they face hell of they stand in way of God's chosen lineage allegedly running Israel as Zionists, unaware of long battles between Zionists and Orthodox Jews and or seculars as well or that Zionists are only Jewish by culture intermingle ploys,plots going back only few hundred years and only officially about 1885 approx in their hexagram/Babylonian dark witch emblem matching flag which they lied and said was King David's mark when I'm fact it's the mark of The dark, occultic Baal, Moloch and Talmud that God spoke of us having to resist more then Lucifer, Satan himself as it embodied largely the entirety of the fallen angel attack on mankind.
Is it coincidence that the planet/fallen angel star Saturn was worshipped most of all of heavenly bodies said to be home to Apollo/Moloch/Baal and that Na sa + telescopes confirm has a twirling vortex tunnel thru it with a Hexagon shape beam always projecting towards Earth..(Amateur astronomers were first to announce it with govt denials of it's mainly supernatural existence!!
No,this is what it's matching, revelations, wars in heaven and earth,angel,demons mankind, wheat from chaffe forged, mysteries revealed,with spiritual armor rewarded to those who care of Gods creation and the good over evil purpose possible if only...you fill in the rest!
I agree and thanks for the links they are excellent. Well, I have not read them carefully nor processed but a first quick read suggests they are excellent.
I do not think there is any doubt that Zionism is sourced in Judaism and that is why it has had so much appeal to Jews.
In psychological terms, a religion, which is to lesser and greater degrees, cult-like, as they all are, will consciously and unconsciously brainwash followers into believing certain things.
Jews have been brainwashed for thousands of years to believe:
1. Jews are the only true humans.
2. Jews are superior as humans and smarter than other humans.
3. Non-jews want to kill Jews.
4. Jews are forever at risk from non-Jews who exist in vastly greater numbers than Jews.
5. Judaism has recorded a long history of what it calls persecution over thousands of years. This information is without context and proof, certainly much of the oldest material.
6. Jews are the eternal victims.
7. Jews can never be wrong. They are always innocents persecuted because they are Jews.
8. Jews can never be safe surrounded by goyim.
9. Jews should be in control because they are superior as humans .
10. If Jews are not in control they are at greater risk (This would be the motivation behind Jewish efforts to infiltrate Government, politics and media in countries where they live and behind the delusional concept that Jews can only be safe in their own State which is run by and controlled by Jews.)
Some of these beliefs are consciously held by some Jews but I suspect all of them are unconsciously held by almost all Jews.
This kind of paranoid victim/supremacist mentality creates great psychological and emotional dysfunction. We see that in the State of Israel, where if you like the cult is most entrenched and has had the greatest freedom to live such beliefs, consciously and unconsciously.
What Israel tells the world and should tell Jews is that their religion creates dysfunction and poor psychological health. There are aspects of Judaism, like Reform, which have tried to rewire the religion for the modern world, but I suspect the power of Morphic Resonance, the energy field for Judaism and Jews, which has influenced them for thousands of years and continues to do so, makes it difficult if not impossible for even Reform Jews to free themselves from the ancient chains of belief.
In short, they need our help and the first act must and should be to totally dismantle Zionist Israel and end the Jewish cult which poisons the religion and its followers and makes life hell on earth for millions of people in the Middle East.
I was with you mostly until this: "Some of these beliefs are consciously held by some Jews but I suspect all of them are unconsciously held by almost all Jews."
Just like Islam, there is a wide range of thought among Jews of the world. And that's taking it way too far, far too overconfidently, and even dangerously. I personally know many "Jews" (mother, mother and father Ashkenazi) who don't give a shit about being in control, let alone being part of some group of special, chosen people.
My issue with diaspora and Israeli Judaism is that they either fully support what the Zionists are doing (establishing a settler colonial apartheid state, cleansing the land of non-Jews, giving non-Jews less than equal status, and murdering/genociding Arabs/Muslims) or they are not nearly as vocally opposed to it - in public - as they claim to be in private. There are exceptions like Jewish Voice for Peace and B'Tselem who do excellent work, but even they are shunned or outright attacked by the majority of Zionists and ignored by other supposedly non-Zionist Jews. It's also not helpful that Jews are the only group who seem to think they can simultaneously be a "race" and a "religion" all at once. Islam and Christianity are far more pragmatic and even superior in that regard. For example, you'll never find a Jew let alone a Zionist proselytizing to others to CONVERT to Judaism - least of all in a systematic campaign like Christianity and Islam.
I should have been clearer. I made an assumption that when I talked about conscious and unconscious readers would understand the distinction. I say that sincerely and I am not being patronising, even though in this cryptic environment it could sound like that.
You said: was with you mostly until this: "Some of these beliefs are consciously held by some Jews but I suspect all of them are unconsciously held by almost all Jews."
What I mean by that is that we can know what we hold consciously as a belief but we do not know and may never necessarily know what unconscious beliefs are at work in us. Unconscious beliefs are handed down through family, cultures, environment and actions - the most powerful lesson a child learns are unspoken said one psychologist and that makes sense to me.
If you grow up in a family/religion/culture which holds certain beliefs you will absorb many of those beliefs without knowing it. This will influence your actions whether you know it or not. Where beliefs are sourced in fear, particularly long-held ancient fears, they become more powerful.
Biologist Rupert Sheldrake explains this well with his theory of morphic resonance.
You said:. I personally know many "Jews" (mother, mother and father Ashkenazi) who don't give a shit about being in control, let alone being part of some group of special, chosen people.
There are always exceptions. But the true exceptions are consciously aware and they act to condemn and reduce wrongs. Lots of people with Jewish ancestry or religion may well consciously believe and state, they do not care about being part of a group of special chosen people when unconsciously that is exactly what they believe.
I think it is important to try to understand why most Jews, and it is most, have continued to fund and enable Israel regardless of its atrocities since 1947. You might argue they did not know but that is an excuse, not a reason. It is certainly an excuse for the past 20 months when not to know must involve a decision not to know. And of course, not necessarily a conscious decision.
How do we know we are making conscious decisions free of unconscious influences? We don't and often we cannot and that is why we must put our actions even more than our statements under forensic study. Actions speak louder than words.
You said: My issue with diaspora and Israeli Judaism is that they either fully support what the Zionists are doing (establishing a settler colonial apartheid state, cleansing the land of non-Jews, giving non-Jews less than equal status, and murdering/genociding Arabs/Muslims) or they are not nearly as vocally opposed to it - in public - as they claim to be in private.
I know many Jews and in the same family I know some who could see the reality of Israel and spoke out against it and other family members denied it all. I suspect there are plenty of Jews who say nothing, think less and still continue to send money and their children to Israel. And they are often vocal in supporting the human rights of everyone but Palestinians.
If you could find some self discipline and stop resorting to peronal insults and abuse it would waste less time for everyone.
Do not be ridiculous. There is no way one individual can ask a question of world Jewry or get an answer.
Jews have to do this for themselves. They need to come together and ask the question, which, by the way some Jews are already asking.
Zionism, Judaism and Jews are conflated and it has nothing to do with my approach.
Zionist Israel claims to represent all Jews as the Jewish State. MOST JEWS NOT ONLY ACCEPT THAT THEY PROMOTE IT. Ergo, Zionism and Jews are conflated.
Many followers of Judaism have always and continue to support, promote, fund, enable Zionist Israel and do NOT challenge its claims to represent Jews, followers of the religion of Judaism. Ergo, Judaism and Zionism are conflated.
AND FFS YOU SHOULD STOP DICTATING TO OTHERS WHAT TO SAY AND HOW TO SAY IT. None of your bloody business. Read or don't read is the only decision you have to make.
The focus on Palestine and on bringing people together and to have compassion for all REQUIRES PUTTING THE FOCUS ON ZIONISM, JUDAISM AND JEWS AND THE PART THEY PLAY IN CREATING THE EVIL THAT IS ISRAEL AND ITS GENOCIDAL POLICIES. Logic.
It is ridiculous to love all cultures because all cultures are not equal. It is however possible and sensible to feel love and compassion for all humans regardless of their culture.
"It is ridiculous to love all cultures because all cultures are not equal". Your sweeping statement Roslyn Ross, is very pompous and patronising. I don't think "other cultures" need your love or compassion.
The anthropological term " Cultural relativism" recognises the diversity of human cultures and the equal validity of each.
But the way the western culture has embraced genocide you wouldn't say that it is equal or valid, would you ?
If you think highly patriarchal and misogynistic cultures are the equal of those which allow freedom and independence for people and particularly for women then you are not thinking clearly. Of course all cultures are not equal.
In Malawi witchcraft is still powerful and Albinos are killed for their body parts to be used in spells and old women are still murdered as witches. So, no, all cultures are not equal.
AND SORRY MATE BUT MISOGYNY, INFANTICIDE, WITCHCRAFT DO NOT HAVE EQUAL VALIDITY. What a ridiculous position.
It is wrong to say Western culture has embraced genocide given how many people in Western cultures are protesting against it.
What you need to remember is that the average person does not care much about what goes on beyond their world and life and they rely on mainstream media for their information. That is changing, particularly with younger generations accessing alternative information sites.
What you can say is that domination of the US and its obsession with Israel, has allowed genocide to happen, indeed, armed it to happen, and too many gutless allies have gone along with it. That is however beginning to change. None of that represents Western culture.
The domination of the world by one State, the US, does not represent Western culture or its values. Neither does genocide, occupation, colonisation, ethnic cleansing. The fact these things exist is not because of Western culture but because of flaws and failings in human nature.
And let us not be total hypocrites. Genocide and ethnic cleansing go on in some places all the time, particularly Africa and India and they are not Western cultures.
If Western culture has embraced genocide then can you please demonstrate how India and China, both non-Western cultures, have acted to condemn and prevent genocide? Many thanks.
You make the mistake of thinking the US represents Western culture, or whatever people believe Western culture might be. It does not.
Western culture is essentially the modern world and it likes to think it is the democratic world but that is no more than variations on the theme of democracy. The US is not a democracy but a Constitutional Republic and its system of the Electoral College. There are democratic aspects to the US but it is hardly representative of the Western democratic world.
Indu, Roslyn Ross has already made excuses and tried to deny the Genocide of ethnic/native Australians (in one of her other posts/comments). She is a certified Pro-Colonialist (and hence will try and defend Genocides by the West in ways that seem acceptable and permissible - i.e. using deceptive language and methods to appear as presentable as possible).
Such people (like Roslyn Ross) absolutely DISGUST me beyond belief. She disparages so many cultures in her attempts to defend the West - Indian culture, African cultures, and more.
And notice how she NEVER explicitly focuses on the U.S. Empire and their DIRECT involvement in the Genocide of the Palestinians (since 1948). She will always tru to put ALL the blame on Jews and Israel instead of expanding the scope of guilty parties and focusing on the West (which created this mess and dystopian situation to begin with).
Also, I rarely find her mentioning CAPITALISM (and everything that it entails - like imperialism, all forms of colonialism, etc.) as an extremely prominent factor in the behavior of Western nations in the destruction of 'not only the Palestinian people', but also large parts of the Global South.
[PS: If she sees this comment, she will try to employ her usual trick of 'take one statement I have made and make a credible case that it amounts to a hatred of Judaism and Jews or other cultures' to deflect from any honest criticism of her views/opinions. And when people produce copies amounts of evidence as to her culpability in all this, she simply ignores facts and logic as if they don't apply to 'any of her criticisms' - like she is 'above and beyond' being held accountable by logic.]
What is sad/horrible is that such kinds of 'White Supremacists' and racists (like Roslyn Ross) are all to common - one simply has to look at the MAGA cult (in the U.S.) and similar far-right groups in other Western nations - to see how they prey on the weak minded using manufactured moral panics of 'white replacement theory' and 'anti-immigration' narratives.
I have said what I needed to say to you (and what people need to know about you and your behavior). EVERYONE here (and elsewhere) observes your words and behavior. Some are deceived by your methods. Others are smarter to pick up on your strategies and lack of logic and strawman arguments and deflections and introduction of extraneous information and tangents and distractions and fallacious comparisons and more.
I will go back to being depressed and angry about the plight of the Palestinians and the world - but you do YOU - whatever rocks your boat - whatever helps you create 'more hate' in the world - whatever helps you 'divide people' further.
Odd is it not that you are the only one saying it and people are not lining up behind you validating your insults and abuse. You might want to ponder that.
I shall ignore your silly insult posts in future. Happy to discuss like adults any reasonable points you make, should they appear.
You might want to ponder why you are more transparent than you think in your motives. Why would I care about who lines up behind me? I'm a non-conformist thinker. I do my own thinking. I will let others do their own thinking.
I will continue to point out your strategies of hate and dividing people and deceiving people and making people aware of people like you just as I would do the same in the case of making people aware of Zionism and their narratives and propaganda and strategies - you are free to ignore me or do whatever you want.
I told you that this would ALWAYS be my response to you ->
"FUCK OFF - and KEEP FUCKING OFF Jenny Shit-For-Brains Stokes! This will be my standard reply to you (for all the abusive brain-farts that you leave on my comments)."
Why? You have abused be verbally too many times for no reason (even though I have been on your side (though you often don't seem to comprehend my comments and don't realise it). Since you've told me to FUCK OFF even when I said that I liked you and you had a good heart", this is the response you will receive from me.
Do you think people are like Dogs that you can simply verbally abuse (for no good reason) and they will come back for more? (since you do this often with me). Do you think you can willy-nilly throw your emotional temper tantrums on people as if they are your immediate family that might not have a choice in taking your shit? Do you think you are special because you think you are the only one that has problems? I have news for you - there are many others with problems worse than yours.
Again, the above will be my response to you - as you've abused be verbally once too often - and then you demand special pleading and attention because you think you have the greatest problems on the planet that you keep talking about on Caitlin's substack, while there are others too with more serious problems than yours that are private people that do not wish to discuss it with others.
So if you can verbally abuse a person (for no good reason other than not comprehending their comments), that has been on your side in the past, then what kind of a person does that make you? Do you want PROOF of our exchanges where that has happened? (I have the emails of our substack conversations). And then you run away like a coward when that person responds to you without giving them the respect of a response for falsely accusing them of something they never said. That is called HIT-and-RUN - and you do that all to often with me AND others in this Substack and others.
Yes, she brings her opinions up a lot and it never shows much logic. It's my opinion that ignoring her is best or a whole day could be wasted on the back and forth.
As I have said to CC, please take one statement I have made and prove it to be illogical and lacking in a factual base, therefore only opinion. One will do. Chang has not been able to do it but perhaps you can. I have no problem when people can make a case to prove me wrong. Over to you.
Jesus Christ Chang. All those posts about not conflating “Judaism and Zionism” are getting REALLY. FUCKING. IRRITATING.
Polls indicate that over 3/4 of Amerikkkan Jews support what IsraHell is doing in Palestine (yep, West Bank too.) Katie Halper, Max Blumenthal, Norman Finkelstein nonewithstanding.
How many times do I have to fucking say this? IT AINT QUAKERS bombing and starving Palestinians!
Or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Or Buddhists.
Or Taoists.
Go ahead and call me an antisemite. I could not give a flying fuck less, because I am an ACTUAL TRUE SEMITE, pal!
Gypsy, are you able to differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism? You don't really seem to care. You don't seem to understand WHY making such differentiations is important.
>>"How many times do I have to fucking say this? IT AINT QUAKERS bombing and starving Palestinians!"
No - its Zionists - Jewish Zionists and Christian Zionists. It's also all the non-Zionists in the Western world (and all other nations) that provide support to Israel in myriad ways.
Also, take AND use your righteous anger for what is happening in this world (and believe me, you are not the ONLY one that is angry), but also use valid judgement and blame assignment in the process.
If you don't understand how the Palestinian cause is harmed by NOT making these important distinctions, then you should think a bit more on this.
Non-Zionist and Pro-Palestine groups have been on the side of Palestine LONG before Oct.7, and have been protesting and fighting against Zionism and Israel. (Do your research if you are not aware of this FACT). Hence, to not ally with the people on our side (the side of the Palestinians) is sheer folly.
But yeah, sure - if YOUR feelings are more important than the Palestinians to you, if YOUR anger is more important than the Palestinians to you, then go ahead with your PURE EMOTIONAL approach to fighting against Israel and Zionism and see how far that gets you.
Do not, I repeat, do not EVER tell me about PRE-OCT. 7, you miserable little cooze. MY FATHER WAS FROM HAIFA, PALESTINE and you think you’re gonna tell ME about the Palestinian Cause! 😂😂😂
I FUCKING GREW UP WITH THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE, you self-righteous BITCH.
I don’t have enough vile words for you but maybe my Sistah Jenny can help me out.
AND YOU THINK YOU KNOW all about the Palestinian Cause! LMFAO, whore!
You know SHIT Gypsy - all you do is EMOTIONS. No logic, no ability to think critically. Enjoy your life (and continue abusing people - since that gives you your kicks).
>>"That is the question only Jews can answer."
So why don't you go and ASK them instead of pontificating in EVERY SINGLE POST and purposely conflating Jews and Judaism and Zionism into ONE thing without distinctions? You have a habit and history of doing this Roslyn Ross, and we have had arguments about it.
But you cannot help yourself. You bring it up EVERY CHANCE YOU GET - as if there is some kind of pathological need WITHIN YOU to purposefully (and surreptitiously) turn the discussion around to the SAME topic AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.
Is it possible for you to FOCUS on Palestinians more than on your intrinsic Jew-hatred? (Note here that I am NOT accusing you of anti-semitism here - which comes in many forms, but of Jew-hatred). I meant this as a rhetorical question, since I know (over multiple discussions, comments, and posts) that this (and your white-supremacy and pro-colonial stance) is something that seem to be the focus of your life.
FOCUS on PALESTINE! FOCUS on GAZA! FOCUS on bringing people together! FOCUS on nuance! FOCUS on LOVE of ALL PEOPLE, and LOVE of people of ALL COLORS and LOVE of ALL CULTURES (can I make an exception here for Israeli culture?)
Sorry to tell you but the line is way more blurred (if non-existent) in the minds of many, including the Zionists themselves.
https://www.nefariousrussians.com/p/zionism-is-at-the-core-of-judaism
and
https://www.nefariousrussians.com/p/the-ancient-zionism-that-haunts-the
So at the very least, prominent Jews who claim not to be Zionists, but do support Israel would like to have it both ways, depending on the conversation. At the most, Zionism is baked into ancient Judaism in a manner that is far beyond the ability of anyone to refute in the form of a comment at a website.
Of course it is blurred. And the Zionists LOVE that it is blurred - as this blurring, this lack of distinctions, this lack of nuance - CREATES REAL anti-semitism (we are not talking about the fake anti-semitism that is all too common).
This REAL anti-semitism enables and empowers the Zionists - as they can now truthfully claim victimhood. WHY would you want to continue to let the Zionists get away with this CHARADE of false victimhood?
Do you not understand this strategy employed by the Zionists/Israelis/supporters of Israel and Zionism/Christian Zionists/etc. ?
Do you not understand how this plays into the hands of the VERY PEOPLE that we are trying to FIGHT AGAINST and STOP?
Why enable and add fuel to the Zionist victimhood narrative?
Please read Yasha Levine's very well researched articles before we continue this conversation. If they are paywalled, that's an issue I may not be able to resolve fairly. But as a Jew himself - albeit a left-leaning non-practicing Jew - he has done the deep dives into the texts and produced his own translations of some of them. It is his contention that Zionism - insofar as the notion that Jews are promised a SPECIFIC piece of real estate on Earth (something no other religion deigns to do) - is a core part of the dominant strain of Israeli and diaspora Judaism.
I get what you're trying to say, as it isn't rocket science and I see it every day, but as Caitlyn noted, the Israelis have done more to amplify anti-Jew thought around the world than any white supremo website could ever have hoped. And as long as I (or we) are not talking about shipping Jews off to camps or hurting them, intellectual rigor requires the honest reading of the texts and juxtaposing that with the actions and words of Zionists as well as Jews who claim not to be Zionist, but "support Israel's right to exist" - a mutually incompatible set of circumstances with only one real set of solutions: Ending the state of Israel insofar as it is an ethnosupremacist Jewish state with special rights for Jews or giving the Palestinians their own country on land currently controlled by the Zionists. The first step down that road is ascertaining what actual diaspora Jews and the governments in countries where they live and have influence are willing to say or do about it.
Well said and as Gideon Levy makes clear and I am talking about, the beliefs of Israelis and indeed their supporters is the welding together of Judaism, Zionism and Jewish beliefs.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/620923954335390/?s=single_unit&__cft__[0]=AZVyJaMWIwLuf4yVXa_gCaWcrYW7-OgnwBVKxrpp1AXSvJPyUW1lG4gKjbfakt2lqXdsm_FWx_N_C9oGIB38sYopMfoF3Qh8rAUVuXOFpL7qgQm0ClP55YHpmwYmfFAA5fT4kKBQCPK1Nl9mU80qBYODcYjMevFymdWv4yLUC5sHwQb9oEM6vxfA1kC8VLf-65uuQXKh4gVTocbswPFdGPnOjEVUI02LeQ0bVBxVYHTYZaBLUgfcc1lrFNcnk6WoQjY&__tn__=H-R
Not sure what your point is or what you are trying to get across. No cultures are monolithic. No people are monolithic. Not Muslims, not Christians, not Jews, not Hindus, not even atheists.
To not be able to differentiate between Jews (tribe, not race), Judaism (religion) and Zionism (political ideology) is EXACTLY what the supporters of Israel (and Zionism) want to do.
There are many Jewish groups (in many Western countries) that are pro-Palestine and anti-genocide. There are also many Jewish groups that are anti-Palestine and pro-genocide. To NOT be able to distinguish and differentiate between these groups is a MISTAKE - not only for Jews (which is not really my concern now), but more so for the Palestinians and ALL that fight for the Palestinians.
Why is it important to differentiate between these Jewish groups with different loyalties and moralities? Because the Pro-Palestine and anti-Genocide groups (Jewish or otherwise) are ON THE SAME SIDE.
Why is this so difficult for some people to understand? If I were a Palestinian, I could use ALL THE HELP I could get - whether it comes from Jews or Christians or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Atheists or whatever.
Chang,
Let me make a much shorter and to-the-point comment: This genocide situation and the problem of the Palestinians displaced, stolen from and murdered in a multi-state sanctioned campaign is something for ONE group to fix. Namely, diaspora and Israeli Jews and their most fervent supporters. ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path. It has nothing to do with Hindus, Muslims, Christians (except those Zionist ones), etc. Worldwide, but specifically Western and Israeli Jewry need to stand up and say "ENOUGH and STOP - Let's engage in good faith and with honest intentions." Until then, this IS a Jewish problem whether you like it or not.
>>"ONLY massive Jewish anti-Zionist actions and statements can stop this and set us back on the right path."
And you know this how? Jews are a minority of the population. They alone cannot and will not be able to stop the Pro-Israel Zionists. They need our support and we need their support. It is that simple.
And it has to do with EVERY person on earth - whether Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Atheist or something else. We ALL need to UNITE. Leaving the anti-Zionists to do this (according to your probability calculations) is not only folly, but a strategy of asssured failure.
That you do not get this simple concept is astounding to me.
A major problem and indeed handicap to addressing the genocide in Palestine over 77 years is that it did and it does involve Judaism and Jews.
People have been reluctant to say that until the even greater horrors of the past 20 months but, as you say, and as I have said, Jews must stand up and be accountable and responsible for what has been done and is still being done in their name and the name of their religion.
The fact that Israeli atrocities create a situation where some people will blame all Jews for the actions of many and their fanatics does not bother Zionism or the Israelis because the more Jews are held accountable, blamed, then the more they scream anti-semitism and it justifies their paranoia and their delusion that they need their own State to survive.
It is only by the power of enough Jews taking a stand against the evil that is Israel and their own Jewish, Israeli and Zionist power agendas which have infiltrated Government, politics and media that the sewer which is Israel can be flushed clean and replaced.
I don't see it STRICTLY as a Jewish problem. Clearly what is being done to the Palestinians is, since it is being perpetrated by Jewish people. However, I see it more as a worldwide problem. All cultures witnessing what is happening are suffering, for the Palestinians, but also they are killing something precious within themselves for not standing up and speaking out about such horror. No, I don't think there is a lot that we can do, but we can do something. Clearly there is no indication that the Israeli government is going to solve their problem outside of genocide or expulsion. And just as clearly, the US will continue to send them all the weapons they need to destroy the Palestinians and their culture. Here at home AIPAC is not going to stand up one fine day and say, "Hey, this is immoral, we need to stop it." Nor will they stop threatening our institutions of higher learning w removal of funding unless they bring severe repercussions to those students who are protesting on behalf of the Palestinian cause. So, it does seem to me that the solution depends upon those outside the Jewish community as well as those within, and we should join the ranks of student protests demanding a reform to the apartheid state and that we divest from Israeli businesses. The growth of anti-Israel sentiment, divestment, and the halt in money and weapons to Israel are among the incentives of use.
The bible says thou shalt not kill. Funny how so many ignore that.
Chang, let me make what may be a very uncomfortable to hear statement. It needs to be said. And I'll preface it with what I feel is needed and added context.
Jews occupy a rarified place politically, in media, finance, entertainment and government here in the west - especially considering they are 2-3% of the population, total. They have outsized influence compared to their numbers.
Back during the early to middle days of the BS US-led GWOT, many rightwingers and Jews made statements like "Well where are the GOOD Muslims standing up and speaking out against terrorism?!" Due to their elevated and outsized presence and platform, this was not an uncommon thing to see and hear Zionists, their supporters and many Jews on the right and center state. Yet Muslims had almost no voice and the acts of "terror" were fraught with credible allegations of fakery, misattribution, provocation and even false flags.
So my point is this: Western Jewry has a problem to confront given all of the above. As I noted, some very vocal and very ethically consistent members of "the tribe" (not my words, but used by you and others) are doing a great job and suffering persecution and excommunication. JVFP, B'Tselem, etc...again.
But western Judaism - the majority - strike me as both uniquely positioned and uniquely qualified to call out Israel's ongoing literal genocide being carried out in THEIR names. And yet, we can cite poll after poll, action after action, and inaction after inaction of a supposedly peace-based religion (but again, also "ethnic group") to demonstrate that not only are they NOT speaking out, but that they are using their position(s) to apologize or brush under the rug an actual, large scale GENOCIDE. NOT a few "terror" attacks which always seem to be immediately blamed on Muslims/Islam, but a live streamed, US-EU aided full scale ethnic cleansing/starvation/genocide being carried out ostensibly to protect a religious/ethnic group with great clout and power from one which has either virtually no power or clout or is infested with collaborationists like the Gulf Monarchies.
To put it shortly and bluntly, in light of research/commentary such as Yasha Levine's, Western Judaism has a real problem on their hands and so does Israel and its supporters. A real, legitimate, uncontestable problem. No other religion/ethnicity with that much clout, that big a platform, that much buy-in from western (current and former) colonialist/imperialist metropoles or governments, and if you continue to deny this, then you're part of the problem. People like Yasha Levine ARE NOT. And talking about or debating things is NOT the same as sending people to die in concentration camps (ala the Holocaust Industry - Norm Finkelstein - another Jew) or talking about expelling "Jews" from our countries.
Eloquently and succinctly put.
Tom - it's REALLY SIMPLE, really.
If one cannot differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (and nuance is required here - as there are overlaps and intersections and unions of all sorts - I'm referring to Venn Diagrams from Set Theory here), then they are making a mistake that is going to hurt Palestinians (and Muslims) in the present and the future.
Regardless of WHATEVER text you read or whomever you follow or whomever you quote, NO CULTURE ON EARTH is monolithic. Period. The world is too complex, people are too complex, human societies and cultures are too complex to believe in ANY monolithic narratives. Inspite of all this, people continue being lazy and believing simplistic narratives and refusing to differentiate between the permutations and combinations of all these groupings (Jewish or otherwise).
Just as Israelis confuse and conflate and propagandize their narratives to their advantage, there are many Zionists (including Christian Zionists) that do the same.
If you are on the side of the Palestinians (and I mean TRULY on the side of the Palestinians for the sake of Palestines and for no other reason), then you (and I mean EVERYONE) MUST make these distinctions.
Political Zionism is a new animal, that didn't exist from the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion against the Romans, until the era of Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. They had minimal influence within Judaism. Jewish faith and tradition spoke specifically to the coming of the Messiah - who would return all Jews to the Promised Land, in a divine fashion, "on the wings of eagles", thereby ending the EXILE. There was to be no activity by the Jewish people, in furthering this, on a political or practical level. Only prayer and righteousness was to be required, in order to get the Almighty to fulfill the long held aspirational goals of spiritual Zionism. Being some kind of secular/atheist - Yasha isn't really in his depth here.
The Exile and Diaspora are a punishment for stiff-necked, wickedness, worshiping false gods and idolatry. The Prophets warned, but the people wouldn't listen. Political Zionism is just another Golden Calf, for the modern era. There's zero in the Torah about David having a Star. Solomon had a "seal". The two triangles in occult teachings mean "as above, so below". However, in Leviticus and Amos, there is mentioned a "Star of Remphan" - which is another name for Saturn. And sure enough, if you look at one of the poles of Saturn, it has a 6 pointed star, that you may decide looks familiar. Saturn is also known as Chiun, and Moloch.
There is so little real anti semitism, hatred of Judaism and Jews that it is probably time to put it away as a concept.
The religion which is persecuted today is Islam. That is where our focus needs to be.
There is growing dislike of Zionist fake Jews genociding but it's spreading to real Jews a bit due to confusion about whats a fake jew vs a real Jew so intentionally blurred, plus the cowardly support of Zionist Ashkenazi non DNA Jews by Orthodox blood lined real Jews, their spiritual idealistic enemy(goes for prozionist christians as well) yet occuring to degrees due to extreme pressure tactics of Zionists and moral failure in percentage of orthodox Jews or secular real Jews(& alot of Christians).
Yet Zionists feed and depend on victim status but non bully Orthodox Jews are the ones to feel the wrath from both sides..All this could change if real Non Ashkenazi Jews who respect the old testament and hate ungodly Talmud and have many times more then measly 3.5 percent avg Jewish DNA of Zionists told the truth loud to the world and American christians of their oppressions by the Zionists and how real Jews are under a seize of sorts ie if they don't go along with intensest bully Zionists they'll be harmed or eliminated too they rightly fear is the unspoken truth, Hardly the Jewish Oasis promised to the blood lined emigrated to Isreal jews by the Ashkenazi to legitimize their farce Jewish homeland,what small a percentage relatively to Zionists they are that occupy Israel,a fraction of what was implied decades to world.
My concern is not anti-semitism (in our current context) because I agree with you that there is not much real anti-semitism.
My concern is the way anti-semitism plays into the hands of the Zionist narratives of VICTIMHOOD.
My concern is for the Palestinian people. I would NOT want to do ANYTHING that helps Zionists IN ANY WAY. I hate Zionists, I hate Israelis, I hate settler-colonialism. I hate these more than you would know.
And not being able to differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism (all the different flavors) is something that HELPS Israel and Zionists. Hence, I make EVERY EFFORT to NOT help Israel or Zionists (anywhere in the world).
The much larger problem (by a wide margin) that the world is facing (and has been facing for a long time now) is Islamophbia.
Islamophobia has ALWAYS been more prominent than anti-semitism - partly due to the population of Muslims in comparison to the population of Jews in the world (but please correct me if I am wrong on this).
I have read Edward Said's excellent book "Orientalism" (which I recommend EVERYONE to read - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355190.Orientalism), and I don't talk out of my arse (and I am not insinuating that you do either - though I suspect your motives and don't trust you).
From Orientalism, "The idea of “the Orient” evolved from Western colonial powers. It is a politically dangerous and culturally biased idea. This concept continues to infect Western views of the Eastern world."
So go ahead and lecture me on whatever you wish, but I will CONTINUE TO INSIST on making the necessary distinction between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism because I CARE about the Palestinians - and the Pro-Palestine Jewish groups/factions/organizations can be some of our strongest allies in the fight against Israel, Zionists, and the U.S. Empire.
Just as non-Hindutva Hindus work and collaborate with Muslims to combat the hate-filled supremacist ideology of Hindutva, similarly non-Zionist and pro-Palestine Jews work and collaborate with other non-Zionists and anti-Israel people all over the world.
Hence the IMPORTANCE of making these distictions. If you cannot see the advantages and pragmatism behind this, then I'm afraid you are NOT TRULY on the side of the Palestinians (no matter how much or how loudly you protest and profess otherwise).
If you are concerned with the Palestinian problem then it behoves you to deal with the reality that Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together and create the evil that is Israel and enable the atrocities that it commits and has committed for 77 years.
Israel would never have survived the first decade without Jewish money and support and the power-factions of Zionists, Israelis and Jews in the US, UK and other countries made it possible for Israel to keep rampaging around Palestine and the Middle East in murderous frenzy.
It is Jews in the US, UK, Australia, Europe who are screaming that condemnation of Israel is anti-semitic. It is Jews controlling mainstream media and manipulating Governments and politicians that has allowed this genocide to go on for 20 months.
Yes Zionists have power but they are nothing without the backing of powerful Jewish agendas, groups and individuals.
>>"Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry in the main, are welded together"
All I can say Roslyn Ross, is that you are a SICKO. That's it. Your this statement alone creates your worldview and prevents you from being the kind of help the Palestinians (and the world) needs right now. Like I said before, you are MORE transparent than you realize.
The written works of Israeli Professor Shlomo Sand and other Jews tell us that most of the Jews and posers in today’s version of Israel (Eretz Israel) are not descendants of King David and thus have no legitimate Biblical claim to the land of Israel.
A small minority of Israelis may be actual descendants of the ancient Jews, and many of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., lived peacefully among the Palestinians for two millennia.
After the British Empire created Eretz Israel, Jews fleeing from Europe or Russia preferred to go to the UK, Argentina or the USA instead of Israel. Some of their Brits claimed to want to give the Jews of the world a home, as long as that home was not in England, Scotland or Ireland.
Just the fact that there are so many Christian Zionists should tell people this has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity. It is all about greed and personal advancement.
There is that simple greed ,paid off by Zionist , & elite Euro bankers etc,but no I assure you millions of USA christians taught they face hell of they stand in way of God's chosen lineage allegedly running Israel as Zionists, unaware of long battles between Zionists and Orthodox Jews and or seculars as well or that Zionists are only Jewish by culture intermingle ploys,plots going back only few hundred years and only officially about 1885 approx in their hexagram/Babylonian dark witch emblem matching flag which they lied and said was King David's mark when I'm fact it's the mark of The dark, occultic Baal, Moloch and Talmud that God spoke of us having to resist more then Lucifer, Satan himself as it embodied largely the entirety of the fallen angel attack on mankind.
Is it coincidence that the planet/fallen angel star Saturn was worshipped most of all of heavenly bodies said to be home to Apollo/Moloch/Baal and that Na sa + telescopes confirm has a twirling vortex tunnel thru it with a Hexagon shape beam always projecting towards Earth..(Amateur astronomers were first to announce it with govt denials of it's mainly supernatural existence!!
No,this is what it's matching, revelations, wars in heaven and earth,angel,demons mankind, wheat from chaffe forged, mysteries revealed,with spiritual armor rewarded to those who care of Gods creation and the good over evil purpose possible if only...you fill in the rest!
Sometimes it is difficult to prevent our anger and outrage from causing us to be rash. They play the game masterfully.
I agree and thanks for the links they are excellent. Well, I have not read them carefully nor processed but a first quick read suggests they are excellent.
I do not think there is any doubt that Zionism is sourced in Judaism and that is why it has had so much appeal to Jews.
In psychological terms, a religion, which is to lesser and greater degrees, cult-like, as they all are, will consciously and unconsciously brainwash followers into believing certain things.
Jews have been brainwashed for thousands of years to believe:
1. Jews are the only true humans.
2. Jews are superior as humans and smarter than other humans.
3. Non-jews want to kill Jews.
4. Jews are forever at risk from non-Jews who exist in vastly greater numbers than Jews.
5. Judaism has recorded a long history of what it calls persecution over thousands of years. This information is without context and proof, certainly much of the oldest material.
6. Jews are the eternal victims.
7. Jews can never be wrong. They are always innocents persecuted because they are Jews.
8. Jews can never be safe surrounded by goyim.
9. Jews should be in control because they are superior as humans .
10. If Jews are not in control they are at greater risk (This would be the motivation behind Jewish efforts to infiltrate Government, politics and media in countries where they live and behind the delusional concept that Jews can only be safe in their own State which is run by and controlled by Jews.)
Some of these beliefs are consciously held by some Jews but I suspect all of them are unconsciously held by almost all Jews.
This kind of paranoid victim/supremacist mentality creates great psychological and emotional dysfunction. We see that in the State of Israel, where if you like the cult is most entrenched and has had the greatest freedom to live such beliefs, consciously and unconsciously.
What Israel tells the world and should tell Jews is that their religion creates dysfunction and poor psychological health. There are aspects of Judaism, like Reform, which have tried to rewire the religion for the modern world, but I suspect the power of Morphic Resonance, the energy field for Judaism and Jews, which has influenced them for thousands of years and continues to do so, makes it difficult if not impossible for even Reform Jews to free themselves from the ancient chains of belief.
In short, they need our help and the first act must and should be to totally dismantle Zionist Israel and end the Jewish cult which poisons the religion and its followers and makes life hell on earth for millions of people in the Middle East.
I was with you mostly until this: "Some of these beliefs are consciously held by some Jews but I suspect all of them are unconsciously held by almost all Jews."
Just like Islam, there is a wide range of thought among Jews of the world. And that's taking it way too far, far too overconfidently, and even dangerously. I personally know many "Jews" (mother, mother and father Ashkenazi) who don't give a shit about being in control, let alone being part of some group of special, chosen people.
My issue with diaspora and Israeli Judaism is that they either fully support what the Zionists are doing (establishing a settler colonial apartheid state, cleansing the land of non-Jews, giving non-Jews less than equal status, and murdering/genociding Arabs/Muslims) or they are not nearly as vocally opposed to it - in public - as they claim to be in private. There are exceptions like Jewish Voice for Peace and B'Tselem who do excellent work, but even they are shunned or outright attacked by the majority of Zionists and ignored by other supposedly non-Zionist Jews. It's also not helpful that Jews are the only group who seem to think they can simultaneously be a "race" and a "religion" all at once. Islam and Christianity are far more pragmatic and even superior in that regard. For example, you'll never find a Jew let alone a Zionist proselytizing to others to CONVERT to Judaism - least of all in a systematic campaign like Christianity and Islam.
I should have been clearer. I made an assumption that when I talked about conscious and unconscious readers would understand the distinction. I say that sincerely and I am not being patronising, even though in this cryptic environment it could sound like that.
You said: was with you mostly until this: "Some of these beliefs are consciously held by some Jews but I suspect all of them are unconsciously held by almost all Jews."
What I mean by that is that we can know what we hold consciously as a belief but we do not know and may never necessarily know what unconscious beliefs are at work in us. Unconscious beliefs are handed down through family, cultures, environment and actions - the most powerful lesson a child learns are unspoken said one psychologist and that makes sense to me.
If you grow up in a family/religion/culture which holds certain beliefs you will absorb many of those beliefs without knowing it. This will influence your actions whether you know it or not. Where beliefs are sourced in fear, particularly long-held ancient fears, they become more powerful.
Biologist Rupert Sheldrake explains this well with his theory of morphic resonance.
You said:. I personally know many "Jews" (mother, mother and father Ashkenazi) who don't give a shit about being in control, let alone being part of some group of special, chosen people.
There are always exceptions. But the true exceptions are consciously aware and they act to condemn and reduce wrongs. Lots of people with Jewish ancestry or religion may well consciously believe and state, they do not care about being part of a group of special chosen people when unconsciously that is exactly what they believe.
I think it is important to try to understand why most Jews, and it is most, have continued to fund and enable Israel regardless of its atrocities since 1947. You might argue they did not know but that is an excuse, not a reason. It is certainly an excuse for the past 20 months when not to know must involve a decision not to know. And of course, not necessarily a conscious decision.
How do we know we are making conscious decisions free of unconscious influences? We don't and often we cannot and that is why we must put our actions even more than our statements under forensic study. Actions speak louder than words.
You said: My issue with diaspora and Israeli Judaism is that they either fully support what the Zionists are doing (establishing a settler colonial apartheid state, cleansing the land of non-Jews, giving non-Jews less than equal status, and murdering/genociding Arabs/Muslims) or they are not nearly as vocally opposed to it - in public - as they claim to be in private.
I know many Jews and in the same family I know some who could see the reality of Israel and spoke out against it and other family members denied it all. I suspect there are plenty of Jews who say nothing, think less and still continue to send money and their children to Israel. And they are often vocal in supporting the human rights of everyone but Palestinians.
Apropos your points. As Gideon Levy makes clear.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/620923954335390/?s=single_unit&__cft__[0]=AZVyJaMWIwLuf4yVXa_gCaWcrYW7-OgnwBVKxrpp1AXSvJPyUW1lG4gKjbfakt2lqXdsm_FWx_N_C9oGIB38sYopMfoF3Qh8rAUVuXOFpL7qgQm0ClP55YHpmwYmfFAA5fT4kKBQCPK1Nl9mU80qBYODcYjMevFymdWv4yLUC5sHwQb9oEM6vxfA1kC8VLf-65uuQXKh4gVTocbswPFdGPnOjEVUI02LeQ0bVBxVYHTYZaBLUgfcc1lrFNcnk6WoQjY&__tn__=H-R
If you could find some self discipline and stop resorting to peronal insults and abuse it would waste less time for everyone.
Do not be ridiculous. There is no way one individual can ask a question of world Jewry or get an answer.
Jews have to do this for themselves. They need to come together and ask the question, which, by the way some Jews are already asking.
Zionism, Judaism and Jews are conflated and it has nothing to do with my approach.
Zionist Israel claims to represent all Jews as the Jewish State. MOST JEWS NOT ONLY ACCEPT THAT THEY PROMOTE IT. Ergo, Zionism and Jews are conflated.
Many followers of Judaism have always and continue to support, promote, fund, enable Zionist Israel and do NOT challenge its claims to represent Jews, followers of the religion of Judaism. Ergo, Judaism and Zionism are conflated.
AND FFS YOU SHOULD STOP DICTATING TO OTHERS WHAT TO SAY AND HOW TO SAY IT. None of your bloody business. Read or don't read is the only decision you have to make.
The focus on Palestine and on bringing people together and to have compassion for all REQUIRES PUTTING THE FOCUS ON ZIONISM, JUDAISM AND JEWS AND THE PART THEY PLAY IN CREATING THE EVIL THAT IS ISRAEL AND ITS GENOCIDAL POLICIES. Logic.
It is ridiculous to love all cultures because all cultures are not equal. It is however possible and sensible to feel love and compassion for all humans regardless of their culture.
"It is ridiculous to love all cultures because all cultures are not equal". Your sweeping statement Roslyn Ross, is very pompous and patronising. I don't think "other cultures" need your love or compassion.
The anthropological term " Cultural relativism" recognises the diversity of human cultures and the equal validity of each.
But the way the western culture has embraced genocide you wouldn't say that it is equal or valid, would you ?
If you think highly patriarchal and misogynistic cultures are the equal of those which allow freedom and independence for people and particularly for women then you are not thinking clearly. Of course all cultures are not equal.
In Malawi witchcraft is still powerful and Albinos are killed for their body parts to be used in spells and old women are still murdered as witches. So, no, all cultures are not equal.
AND SORRY MATE BUT MISOGYNY, INFANTICIDE, WITCHCRAFT DO NOT HAVE EQUAL VALIDITY. What a ridiculous position.
It is wrong to say Western culture has embraced genocide given how many people in Western cultures are protesting against it.
What you need to remember is that the average person does not care much about what goes on beyond their world and life and they rely on mainstream media for their information. That is changing, particularly with younger generations accessing alternative information sites.
What you can say is that domination of the US and its obsession with Israel, has allowed genocide to happen, indeed, armed it to happen, and too many gutless allies have gone along with it. That is however beginning to change. None of that represents Western culture.
The domination of the world by one State, the US, does not represent Western culture or its values. Neither does genocide, occupation, colonisation, ethnic cleansing. The fact these things exist is not because of Western culture but because of flaws and failings in human nature.
And let us not be total hypocrites. Genocide and ethnic cleansing go on in some places all the time, particularly Africa and India and they are not Western cultures.
If Western culture has embraced genocide then can you please demonstrate how India and China, both non-Western cultures, have acted to condemn and prevent genocide? Many thanks.
You make the mistake of thinking the US represents Western culture, or whatever people believe Western culture might be. It does not.
Western culture is essentially the modern world and it likes to think it is the democratic world but that is no more than variations on the theme of democracy. The US is not a democracy but a Constitutional Republic and its system of the Electoral College. There are democratic aspects to the US but it is hardly representative of the Western democratic world.
https://factmyth.com/factoids/the-united-states-of-america-is-a-democracy/
Indu, Roslyn Ross has already made excuses and tried to deny the Genocide of ethnic/native Australians (in one of her other posts/comments). She is a certified Pro-Colonialist (and hence will try and defend Genocides by the West in ways that seem acceptable and permissible - i.e. using deceptive language and methods to appear as presentable as possible).
Such people (like Roslyn Ross) absolutely DISGUST me beyond belief. She disparages so many cultures in her attempts to defend the West - Indian culture, African cultures, and more.
And notice how she NEVER explicitly focuses on the U.S. Empire and their DIRECT involvement in the Genocide of the Palestinians (since 1948). She will always tru to put ALL the blame on Jews and Israel instead of expanding the scope of guilty parties and focusing on the West (which created this mess and dystopian situation to begin with).
Also, I rarely find her mentioning CAPITALISM (and everything that it entails - like imperialism, all forms of colonialism, etc.) as an extremely prominent factor in the behavior of Western nations in the destruction of 'not only the Palestinian people', but also large parts of the Global South.
[PS: If she sees this comment, she will try to employ her usual trick of 'take one statement I have made and make a credible case that it amounts to a hatred of Judaism and Jews or other cultures' to deflect from any honest criticism of her views/opinions. And when people produce copies amounts of evidence as to her culpability in all this, she simply ignores facts and logic as if they don't apply to 'any of her criticisms' - like she is 'above and beyond' being held accountable by logic.]
What is sad/horrible is that such kinds of 'White Supremacists' and racists (like Roslyn Ross) are all to common - one simply has to look at the MAGA cult (in the U.S.) and similar far-right groups in other Western nations - to see how they prey on the weak minded using manufactured moral panics of 'white replacement theory' and 'anti-immigration' narratives.
I have said what I needed to say to you (and what people need to know about you and your behavior). EVERYONE here (and elsewhere) observes your words and behavior. Some are deceived by your methods. Others are smarter to pick up on your strategies and lack of logic and strawman arguments and deflections and introduction of extraneous information and tangents and distractions and fallacious comparisons and more.
I will go back to being depressed and angry about the plight of the Palestinians and the world - but you do YOU - whatever rocks your boat - whatever helps you create 'more hate' in the world - whatever helps you 'divide people' further.
Odd is it not that you are the only one saying it and people are not lining up behind you validating your insults and abuse. You might want to ponder that.
I shall ignore your silly insult posts in future. Happy to discuss like adults any reasonable points you make, should they appear.
>>"You might want to ponder that."
You might want to ponder why you are more transparent than you think in your motives. Why would I care about who lines up behind me? I'm a non-conformist thinker. I do my own thinking. I will let others do their own thinking.
I will continue to point out your strategies of hate and dividing people and deceiving people and making people aware of people like you just as I would do the same in the case of making people aware of Zionism and their narratives and propaganda and strategies - you are free to ignore me or do whatever you want.
You do NOT allow others to do their own thinking.
I told you that this would ALWAYS be my response to you ->
"FUCK OFF - and KEEP FUCKING OFF Jenny Shit-For-Brains Stokes! This will be my standard reply to you (for all the abusive brain-farts that you leave on my comments)."
Why? You have abused be verbally too many times for no reason (even though I have been on your side (though you often don't seem to comprehend my comments and don't realise it). Since you've told me to FUCK OFF even when I said that I liked you and you had a good heart", this is the response you will receive from me.
Do you think people are like Dogs that you can simply verbally abuse (for no good reason) and they will come back for more? (since you do this often with me). Do you think you can willy-nilly throw your emotional temper tantrums on people as if they are your immediate family that might not have a choice in taking your shit? Do you think you are special because you think you are the only one that has problems? I have news for you - there are many others with problems worse than yours.
Again, the above will be my response to you - as you've abused be verbally once too often - and then you demand special pleading and attention because you think you have the greatest problems on the planet that you keep talking about on Caitlin's substack, while there are others too with more serious problems than yours that are private people that do not wish to discuss it with others.
So if you can verbally abuse a person (for no good reason other than not comprehending their comments), that has been on your side in the past, then what kind of a person does that make you? Do you want PROOF of our exchanges where that has happened? (I have the emails of our substack conversations). And then you run away like a coward when that person responds to you without giving them the respect of a response for falsely accusing them of something they never said. That is called HIT-and-RUN - and you do that all to often with me AND others in this Substack and others.
So yeah, may you reap what you sow.
Yes, she brings her opinions up a lot and it never shows much logic. It's my opinion that ignoring her is best or a whole day could be wasted on the back and forth.
As I have said to CC, please take one statement I have made and prove it to be illogical and lacking in a factual base, therefore only opinion. One will do. Chang has not been able to do it but perhaps you can. I have no problem when people can make a case to prove me wrong. Over to you.
Thanks Davina. Very kind of you.
You can make an exception for any culture that promotes their own racist superiority and culture of murder and theft.
Jesus Christ Chang. All those posts about not conflating “Judaism and Zionism” are getting REALLY. FUCKING. IRRITATING.
Polls indicate that over 3/4 of Amerikkkan Jews support what IsraHell is doing in Palestine (yep, West Bank too.) Katie Halper, Max Blumenthal, Norman Finkelstein nonewithstanding.
How many times do I have to fucking say this? IT AINT QUAKERS bombing and starving Palestinians!
Or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Or Buddhists.
Or Taoists.
Go ahead and call me an antisemite. I could not give a flying fuck less, because I am an ACTUAL TRUE SEMITE, pal!
Gypsy, are you able to differentiate between Jews, Judaism, and Zionism? You don't really seem to care. You don't seem to understand WHY making such differentiations is important.
>>"How many times do I have to fucking say this? IT AINT QUAKERS bombing and starving Palestinians!"
No - its Zionists - Jewish Zionists and Christian Zionists. It's also all the non-Zionists in the Western world (and all other nations) that provide support to Israel in myriad ways.
Also, take AND use your righteous anger for what is happening in this world (and believe me, you are not the ONLY one that is angry), but also use valid judgement and blame assignment in the process.
If you don't understand how the Palestinian cause is harmed by NOT making these important distinctions, then you should think a bit more on this.
Non-Zionist and Pro-Palestine groups have been on the side of Palestine LONG before Oct.7, and have been protesting and fighting against Zionism and Israel. (Do your research if you are not aware of this FACT). Hence, to not ally with the people on our side (the side of the Palestinians) is sheer folly.
But yeah, sure - if YOUR feelings are more important than the Palestinians to you, if YOUR anger is more important than the Palestinians to you, then go ahead with your PURE EMOTIONAL approach to fighting against Israel and Zionism and see how far that gets you.
You. Stupid. Fucking. CUNT.
Do not, I repeat, do not EVER tell me about PRE-OCT. 7, you miserable little cooze. MY FATHER WAS FROM HAIFA, PALESTINE and you think you’re gonna tell ME about the Palestinian Cause! 😂😂😂
I FUCKING GREW UP WITH THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE, you self-righteous BITCH.
I don’t have enough vile words for you but maybe my Sistah Jenny can help me out.
AND YOU THINK YOU KNOW all about the Palestinian Cause! LMFAO, whore!
You know SHIT Gypsy - all you do is EMOTIONS. No logic, no ability to think critically. Enjoy your life (and continue abusing people - since that gives you your kicks).