I often really like many of your comments, and find them very thought-provoking but this one, not so much.
While I agree that a belief in some type of a "god" may be around a very long time, maybe forever (assuming we don't some how discover a better, or scientific, answer to big questions like.. how/why we're here, etc?), I purposely disconnected the issues of a "belief in a god" and organized "religion". One does not have to be religious at all to have a belief in some type of god (personally, I have no idea what I believe, in that respect.. some times I do, sometimes I don't, sometimes on the fence, depends upon the day I guess... and it rarely, if ever, comes into play in my life).
I think your use of "folly" might be kind of a strong word to use in this regard, as there seems to be quite a bit of current data supporting the idea of "declining religious affiliation", irrespective of any "cultural and anthropological perspective". But this does make me wonder about any new data regarding a belief in some type of god. I'll have to see if there is any new research on that.
If I had to guess, I would say that (even though the percentage of humans with "religious affiliations and observance" seems to be declining), the percentage of humans believing in some type of a god, higher power, etc (whatever anyone wants to label it), has probably not fluctuated much over the fairly recent years, like maybe last 50 or 100 or so(?) perhaps (because the two are different issues, and also... it seems to me to make perfect sense to believe, or not believe, or to be on the fence, about some type of a god... at least until/if we've somehow managed to arrive at some type of definitive answer).
>>"(assuming we don't some how discover a better, or scientific, answer to big questions like.. how/why we're here, etc?)"
But that's precisely the point that you miss - it's not about the science (or facts, etc.). That's why it's called having 'FAITH' - it's a belief system that doesn't need science/logic/etc. to support it.
>>"current data supporting the idea of "declining religious affiliation", irrespective of any "cultural and anthropological perspective""
I've never come across any COMPREHENSIVE data (current or otherwise) that has accurately been able to gauge the world-wide (8 billion+) support of beliefs in God or religion. For instance, if you consider religiosity of a country like India (1.5 billion), it has only increased in the last 30+ years. I would be HIGHLY suspicious of ANY data that makes ANY claims in ANY direction.
Also, new religions (especially new-age religions) are cropping up all the time all over the place. What you seem to miss (and Yuval Noah Harari is a good source on this), is that humans are creatures of stories/narratives/myths/etc. and religions are a primary source of such stories and storytelling - they often serve as the threads that bind human societies together.
I would suggest taking a more comprehensive view of religion (and its impact on human civilizations) instead of considering it under myopic facets if you wish to understand the role religion has played in the past and will CONTINUE to play in human societies into the future (rightly or wrongly).
Just a cursory search, produced this result which seems to suggest that religious affiliation is declining in the U.S. and Western nations (whether Pew Research can be considered reliable, I don't know?):
I will still always root for the demise of organized religion, and in this particular case (although I very often find your perspectives really interesting, and thought-provoking), this time, I do not find your position too compelling because it doesn't seem to me that it takes into consideration the rapid increase in the rate of science/technology development (a measure which I think will also affect religious affiliation percentage).
Anyway, I'm going to hang onto my original "opinion" about the eventual demise of organized (god-based) religion (which is the only point that my initial comment was trying to make) because I have not read anything in these comments to feel otherwise (irrespective of your position that one needs to have a "comprehensive" view of religion to make a prediction about its future... whatever you may mean by "comprehensive", or whether that is even possible to have), or to refute other articles/research I have read.
(1) Comprehensive means (a) not limited to just the US or the West, but global in nature (b) not limited to small slices of time but rather larger periods of history and social movements (c) means how religions affect even the most basic of human interactions (religions are a largest source of morality - rightly or wrongly) (d) how religions and religious beliefs affect all areas of study - politics, science, sociology, economics (eg. behavioral economics), psychology, and so much more...
(2) You do understand that the Earth holds 8+ billion people right? And that the US (and the West) are but a minority of this population. So any 'insights' about religion based on a minority of the population is inherently inaccurate.
(3) You obviously do not understand even the fundamentals of religion - it is NOT based on facts/science/etc. It's a BELIEF SYSTEM. What do you find so difficult to understand about that? Yet you keep harping about 'science/technology/new information/etc.' as if that has much of an impact on religions. If anything, that would have an impact on 'the belief about the existence of God', and religions have always found novel ways to ignore any such objections to the existence of God.
(4) You seem to have missed my point about the data collection and analytics and their limitations/biases/etc. for studies that point to either an increase or decrease of participation in religious beliefs. To wit, it is impossible to accurately sample 8 billion+ people to arrive at a definitive conclusion as to the increase/decrease of religious participation globally.
Your response contains a few strawman arguements ->
(1) You conveniently try to limit the scope to just the US and the West
(2) You disregard religions and religious organizations and institutions that are not based on God (eg. nontheistic religions like Buddhism, Christian atheism, nontheist Quakers, Jainism, Taoism). Many of these nontheistic religions share the same problems as the theistic religions that you seem to have issues with (and rightly so).
(3) Your opinion of my comments (past) is irrelevant to this discussion (but thank you for trying to use flattery to buttress your argument).
As I said before, your knowledge of 'religions' seems to be severely limited. Hence I suggest understanding religions of the world (current and throughout history) so that you understand better the subject that you are trying to have a discussion on and are able to make more informed arguments (or you can talk to people that have a background in religious studies for gaining a better perspective).
""You disregard religions and religious organizations and institutions that are not based on God (eg. nontheistic religions like Buddhism, Christian atheism, nontheist Quakers, Jainism, Taoism). Many of these nontheistic religions share the same problems as the theistic religions that you seem to have issues with""
I really like this point you make, and I did disregard them.
Do you think that the rapidly increasing advances in science and technology has or will have any effect upon religious affiliation (actually, I will pose this to you, and perhaps other questions, directly at your substack)?
I do have some more thoughts on what you just wrote and I also do not think one needs to have as deep an understanding of "religions", as you seem to think, in order to have the opinion that I initially stated. I think there is a way to exchange with you thru personal Substack messaging. I will message you that way, and perhaps you can catch me on much more of what you feel I've apparently missed/ignored. And although it was not for the reason you assumed, still... you're welcome.
>>"Do you think that the rapidly increasing advances in science and technology has or will have any effect upon religious affiliation?"
I don't know. Does anybody with any level of certainty? What I do know is that there is already enough science/technology to refute MOST (if not all) religious beliefs - but still people persist.
So then, the question to ask would be - 'Why do people still persist in believing the things that they believe in?'
Isn't that how many faith/belief systems work? eg. beliefs in Aliens, magic, supernatural entities, spiritual beliefs, ghosts, bigfoot, etc. etc. People believe in many things (including organized religions) for SO MANY reasons - often having NOTHING to do with science/technology/facts.
So why do you think science/technology would stop people from believing in religion? There's enough evidence to show that though "religious beliefs HAVE decreased in some/many segments of populations", it has also INCREASED in other segments of populations.
What I do know is that 'humans often find ways of justifying their beliefs REGARDLESS of science/technology/whatever. I see no reason why religious beliefs would be impacted differently by human psychology.
I often really like many of your comments, and find them very thought-provoking but this one, not so much.
While I agree that a belief in some type of a "god" may be around a very long time, maybe forever (assuming we don't some how discover a better, or scientific, answer to big questions like.. how/why we're here, etc?), I purposely disconnected the issues of a "belief in a god" and organized "religion". One does not have to be religious at all to have a belief in some type of god (personally, I have no idea what I believe, in that respect.. some times I do, sometimes I don't, sometimes on the fence, depends upon the day I guess... and it rarely, if ever, comes into play in my life).
I think your use of "folly" might be kind of a strong word to use in this regard, as there seems to be quite a bit of current data supporting the idea of "declining religious affiliation", irrespective of any "cultural and anthropological perspective". But this does make me wonder about any new data regarding a belief in some type of god. I'll have to see if there is any new research on that.
If I had to guess, I would say that (even though the percentage of humans with "religious affiliations and observance" seems to be declining), the percentage of humans believing in some type of a god, higher power, etc (whatever anyone wants to label it), has probably not fluctuated much over the fairly recent years, like maybe last 50 or 100 or so(?) perhaps (because the two are different issues, and also... it seems to me to make perfect sense to believe, or not believe, or to be on the fence, about some type of a god... at least until/if we've somehow managed to arrive at some type of definitive answer).
>>"(assuming we don't some how discover a better, or scientific, answer to big questions like.. how/why we're here, etc?)"
But that's precisely the point that you miss - it's not about the science (or facts, etc.). That's why it's called having 'FAITH' - it's a belief system that doesn't need science/logic/etc. to support it.
>>"current data supporting the idea of "declining religious affiliation", irrespective of any "cultural and anthropological perspective""
I've never come across any COMPREHENSIVE data (current or otherwise) that has accurately been able to gauge the world-wide (8 billion+) support of beliefs in God or religion. For instance, if you consider religiosity of a country like India (1.5 billion), it has only increased in the last 30+ years. I would be HIGHLY suspicious of ANY data that makes ANY claims in ANY direction.
Also, new religions (especially new-age religions) are cropping up all the time all over the place. What you seem to miss (and Yuval Noah Harari is a good source on this), is that humans are creatures of stories/narratives/myths/etc. and religions are a primary source of such stories and storytelling - they often serve as the threads that bind human societies together.
I would suggest taking a more comprehensive view of religion (and its impact on human civilizations) instead of considering it under myopic facets if you wish to understand the role religion has played in the past and will CONTINUE to play in human societies into the future (rightly or wrongly).
Just a cursory search, produced this result which seems to suggest that religious affiliation is declining in the U.S. and Western nations (whether Pew Research can be considered reliable, I don't know?):
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/
Btw, I found this Slate article from many years ago, "An Agnostic Manifesto", very interesting (and perhaps you might as well): https://slate.com/human-interest/2010/06/the-rise-of-the-new-agnostics.html
I will still always root for the demise of organized religion, and in this particular case (although I very often find your perspectives really interesting, and thought-provoking), this time, I do not find your position too compelling because it doesn't seem to me that it takes into consideration the rapid increase in the rate of science/technology development (a measure which I think will also affect religious affiliation percentage).
Anyway, I'm going to hang onto my original "opinion" about the eventual demise of organized (god-based) religion (which is the only point that my initial comment was trying to make) because I have not read anything in these comments to feel otherwise (irrespective of your position that one needs to have a "comprehensive" view of religion to make a prediction about its future... whatever you may mean by "comprehensive", or whether that is even possible to have), or to refute other articles/research I have read.
Some issues you seem to have missed/ignored ->
(1) Comprehensive means (a) not limited to just the US or the West, but global in nature (b) not limited to small slices of time but rather larger periods of history and social movements (c) means how religions affect even the most basic of human interactions (religions are a largest source of morality - rightly or wrongly) (d) how religions and religious beliefs affect all areas of study - politics, science, sociology, economics (eg. behavioral economics), psychology, and so much more...
(2) You do understand that the Earth holds 8+ billion people right? And that the US (and the West) are but a minority of this population. So any 'insights' about religion based on a minority of the population is inherently inaccurate.
(3) You obviously do not understand even the fundamentals of religion - it is NOT based on facts/science/etc. It's a BELIEF SYSTEM. What do you find so difficult to understand about that? Yet you keep harping about 'science/technology/new information/etc.' as if that has much of an impact on religions. If anything, that would have an impact on 'the belief about the existence of God', and religions have always found novel ways to ignore any such objections to the existence of God.
(4) You seem to have missed my point about the data collection and analytics and their limitations/biases/etc. for studies that point to either an increase or decrease of participation in religious beliefs. To wit, it is impossible to accurately sample 8 billion+ people to arrive at a definitive conclusion as to the increase/decrease of religious participation globally.
Your response contains a few strawman arguements ->
(1) You conveniently try to limit the scope to just the US and the West
(2) You disregard religions and religious organizations and institutions that are not based on God (eg. nontheistic religions like Buddhism, Christian atheism, nontheist Quakers, Jainism, Taoism). Many of these nontheistic religions share the same problems as the theistic religions that you seem to have issues with (and rightly so).
(3) Your opinion of my comments (past) is irrelevant to this discussion (but thank you for trying to use flattery to buttress your argument).
As I said before, your knowledge of 'religions' seems to be severely limited. Hence I suggest understanding religions of the world (current and throughout history) so that you understand better the subject that you are trying to have a discussion on and are able to make more informed arguments (or you can talk to people that have a background in religious studies for gaining a better perspective).
""You disregard religions and religious organizations and institutions that are not based on God (eg. nontheistic religions like Buddhism, Christian atheism, nontheist Quakers, Jainism, Taoism). Many of these nontheistic religions share the same problems as the theistic religions that you seem to have issues with""
I really like this point you make, and I did disregard them.
Do you think that the rapidly increasing advances in science and technology has or will have any effect upon religious affiliation (actually, I will pose this to you, and perhaps other questions, directly at your substack)?
I do have some more thoughts on what you just wrote and I also do not think one needs to have as deep an understanding of "religions", as you seem to think, in order to have the opinion that I initially stated. I think there is a way to exchange with you thru personal Substack messaging. I will message you that way, and perhaps you can catch me on much more of what you feel I've apparently missed/ignored. And although it was not for the reason you assumed, still... you're welcome.
>>"Do you think that the rapidly increasing advances in science and technology has or will have any effect upon religious affiliation?"
I don't know. Does anybody with any level of certainty? What I do know is that there is already enough science/technology to refute MOST (if not all) religious beliefs - but still people persist.
So then, the question to ask would be - 'Why do people still persist in believing the things that they believe in?'
Isn't that how many faith/belief systems work? eg. beliefs in Aliens, magic, supernatural entities, spiritual beliefs, ghosts, bigfoot, etc. etc. People believe in many things (including organized religions) for SO MANY reasons - often having NOTHING to do with science/technology/facts.
So why do you think science/technology would stop people from believing in religion? There's enough evidence to show that though "religious beliefs HAVE decreased in some/many segments of populations", it has also INCREASED in other segments of populations.
What I do know is that 'humans often find ways of justifying their beliefs REGARDLESS of science/technology/whatever. I see no reason why religious beliefs would be impacted differently by human psychology.
I like this response. Very thought-provoking. Will message you directly later, maybe tomorrow, with other thoughts.