I would say, Israel must be fully defanged. But then the huge challenge is who will guarantee the safety of Israeli civilians? And who will guarantee the safety of Palestinian civilians with so many rabid paramilitary extremists reveling in blood lust?
I think that Israel has forfeited its right to exist, and he land should revert to Palestine and belong to Palestinians--and whatever percentage of Jews want to remain and are capable to living in harmony with Palestinian neighbors (10%?) The rest of the Israelis should be refugees, allowed to bring belongings to whatever countries they go to. I don't believe they are only safe in Israel--I think they'd be safer in the US and many other countries.
Not only that, but you shouldn't forfeit your *livelihood* and *safety* for voicing this opinion, which, in the US at least, is an absolute right. This shit is, this year certainly, reaching a frightening climax, with widespread witchhunts after people criticizing Israel's evidenced *behavior*, constantly conflating it with antisemitism, and resulting in extra-judicial material punishments. Naked power run amok.
I think it will get worse here, when we are forced out of Ukraine, China won’t fight us and the economy implodes from our having to carry Israhell due to its destroyed economy. We will see Vicky Nuland, backed by CIA and Mossad, in Portland and Minneapolis and Detroit and NYC and all the places that vote “uncommitted”, handing out cookies, stirring up a “color revolution.”
Don’t believe it. These CIA spooks never die, they just join a think tank and create more trouble from there. She’s Keagan’s wife and he is a virulent neocon. Don’t worry, she’ll land on her feet. And on everyone else’s head! Like Killary, Nancy Baloney, Wasserman-Schultz. Powers will join that little cabal someday too and they’ll all find happiness in WEF.
Anywhere you would put a huge population like that, you would cause, displacement, anguish, and more innocent victims. Pre-67 borders is not without pain, I recognize that. And the deranged frenzy in the mental state of so much of the population cannot be maintained or contained within a reasonable solution. What would be an effective “de-zionification” like the de-nazification process of the end of the second World War™? I trust South Africa, haven’t gone through their truth and reconciliation process in ways that seemed unimaginable prior to the end of the apartheid regime.
The De-Nazification of Germany, et al., was a joke. We all know that. High level Nazis were simply confirmed in positions of power because none of the Allied Powers had the time, energy, or interest in ferreting out every Nazi cockroach and de-Nazifying them. What all the allied powers had was an infinite ability to ignore the rape of German women at the hands of our soldiers for years. You’re never going to de-Zionize the Israelis. It’s a waste of time to talk about it. The task of reclaiming their humanity is an individual one. Each Israeli citizen must make this decision. And a big part of that is making an admission that other human beings are their peers, and their equals, possessing human dignity and the right to live just like every Israeli. Until the Israelis drop their “chosen people” bullshit they are not going to respect anyone’s right to life. The sad fact is that Jews think they are better than everyone else. It’s how they’re raised; it’s what they’re taught; it’s what they believe.
While I would be delighted to see real justice in action, and the Israelis forced to leave Israel, we all know that is as unlikely to happen as the United States being forced back behind the Mississippi and made to cede all the lands to the Pacific Coast back to the Native Americans - a dream I confess I often indulge in. And please, before you raise your shrill objections I realize I am leaving out the tribes between the Atlantic and the Mississippi.
Anyhoo, it isn’t going to happen. Once again, no one wants them. Name me a country, with enough land to spare, that wants to take on the burden of a bunch of displaced Israelis? They would not be a welcome addition to any society. If you want to see Justice done then Israel and Palestine must become one nation, both people living together side by side, building their common future. Why a vicious ethno-state like Israel was ever allowed to come into being is a good question. No other nation on the planet claims such a right.
We could offer them some land in Texas, I suppose. Texas Evangelical Christians send the Israelis millions of dollars every year to build more illegal settlements, with the hope that in doing so, they will increase pressure in the area until it explodes in Armageddon - another stupid doctrine this one theological as opposed to political - that came out of the 19th century. Funny, isn’t it, how these toxic creeds never seem to die? The dead hand of the past weighs upon the present, and stretches into our future. As Faulkner once said: The past is never dead. It’s not even past.
Pretty fed up with the human race. Yes, wouldn't the land which is the USA be much better off if we let the Indians have it all back. I would gladly join their tribe...any trip............ Actually, I think most have been ruined by lousy white man diet, white man alcohol and white man drugs and then there's those casinos. .........So, forgetaboutit.
I don't think Israel ever had a right to exist. It's unjust to go into a place and set up a government without the consent of the people who are already there.
Mary Wildfire: who is really safe anywhere? I am not so sure that Israelis who decided they could not live beside Palestinians would be especially safe in the US or in many other places. They would have to give up their racist attitudes to be considered safe. They would have to be cleansed of their Zionist ideology to be safe wherever they go.
They aren't racist. They just want all of Palestine. Nothing to do with race or religion. In NYC, they cheat everybody, regardless of race. Even each other.
Wrong Judith; Israelis are racist. I worked with a Zionist/ American Jewish supporter of Israel. When the Israelis were shelling Beirut and dropping bombs on Lebanese Christian neighborhoods - this is when Lebanese Christian Militias supported Israel - he shrugged and said: They’re all Arabs. Only Jewish lives matter; everyone else is trafe.
Thanks for this. Trafe..or Treif..Alternate spelling.. means unkosher. Having lived in NYC for 50 years, I know that word. There are many yiddish words used in NYC...why not: they're cool. Someone asked me what was NYC like, and the first thing I thought of, "it's Jewish"...among many other things. and, it is..
I was brought up by people in the middle west, a suburb of Chicago where your word was your bond. No one in my family would cheat people. I was in a partnership with 4 others; we bought buildings in NYC..when they were seriously dirt cheap. One partner was a Jewish dentist, one was his former assistant who had become a Consultant to Dentists. She was either the first or one of the first to do this. Our Jewish partner screwed us twice! First on a building he was supposed to pay the mortgage on, as we had put up the downpayment. He didn't pay the mortgage or the bills and kept the rental income. We ended up getting him out of that building. THEN, he signed a contract to sell another one (probably got money under the table) and our Jewish lawyer, his friend, told us stupid trusting partners that we had to go through with the sale or we would be sued for "specific performance".
Now, I know we could have canceled that sale because the majority of the partners never signed it. One partner was his former employee/friend. Another was my friend, a Doctor from Australia. Another was a woman who had raised 3 kids on her own and wanted to put her savings into a solid investment. And, me. None of us were stupid, we were just not Jewish.
I think to them, EVERYONE else is treif. Dirty and not to be respected. That was just one money losing experience with Jews in NYC. I can count 13. In NYC, they are closer to Jewish. As they move through the country, and associate more with the general population; they don't identify as much with Jewish "values". Some marry out and are still "Jewish" but not conforming.
See the last section: American Treif. Now when Israel is under scrutiny for this "war", I think even those who were non-conforming are being pulled in to support/save "the Jewish people always at risk of annihilation" .
I don't know about that. In their own enclaves, as long as they didn't act out violently, they'd be safe, seems to me. I just would hope none settle near me, we have enough racists around here already.
Your attitude toward people from Israel sounds racist to me. You seem to be making assumptions that everyone from Israel will be a zionist. I guess you don't see it as important to give, even the most potentially difficult people, a chance to redeem themselves?
I figure some Israelis can live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors and should be allowed to do so--but I doubt it's more than 10%. I suspect one reason Israelis are so Zionist is self-selection; young Israelis who are uncomfortable with apartheid and discrimination get the hell out, leaving behind those who are fine with it, and newcomers who think it's great to live in a place where their identity group is acknowledged to be the Master Race. Polls have shown the vast majority in Israel are onboard with the genocide. This is not some genetic, hardwired thing--humans are herd animals and most are very influenced by those around them.
exactly. especially when those around them are indoctrinating them with a specific ideology. they are "so zionist" because the indoctrination starts as soon as they are born.
I've lately noticed furious work on re-scoping the Nakba, back to identifying 1920s "unprovoked" Palestinian offenses. (Hmm... where have I heard that word "unprovoked" before?)
Looks like we're in for the long haul, of course, on history re-examination. Just hope all the relevant evidence hasn't been destroyed.
I have this recollection from long ago (circa 1970) that keeps popping up unbidden into my mind these days, of a friend looking over a newspaper, then laying it down and stating, "Every time you turn around, Israel is stealing land that doesn't belong to them."
That is bullshit. 67 was a preemptive strike. The history is not what western Society has been taught to believe. Israel is extremely good at presenting a narrative that is,more often than not, a fair good distance from the truth. When necessary, they will torture individuals to back up that narrative.
Not true. In 1967, " early on the morning of June 5, Israel staged a sudden preemptive air assault that destroyed more than 90 percent Egypt’s air force on the tarmac. A similar air assault incapacitated the Syrian air force. Without cover from the air, the Egyptian army was left vulnerable to attack. Within three days the Israelis had achieved an overwhelming victory on the ground, capturing the Gaza Strip and all of the Sinai Peninsula up to the east bank of the Suez Canal."
The Hollywood Central Casting version of weak enfeebled righteous hard done by people with impossibly good looking teenaged children full of righteous vengeance DOESN’T WASH anymore
Yes, indeed. I could see them living “in piece”. a small piece and consensus of governments around the world is that it should be in pre-67 borders. That is already a huge huge concession for Palestinians. But living in peace means not harming others. Means not controlling others. There must be a guarantor between Israel and Palestine who can keep the peace. Is there such an entity?
I would say, Israel must be fully defanged. But then the huge challenge is who will guarantee the safety of Israeli civilians? And who will guarantee the safety of Palestinian civilians with so many rabid paramilitary extremists reveling in blood lust?
I think that Israel has forfeited its right to exist, and he land should revert to Palestine and belong to Palestinians--and whatever percentage of Jews want to remain and are capable to living in harmony with Palestinian neighbors (10%?) The rest of the Israelis should be refugees, allowed to bring belongings to whatever countries they go to. I don't believe they are only safe in Israel--I think they'd be safer in the US and many other countries.
Not only that, but you shouldn't forfeit your *livelihood* and *safety* for voicing this opinion, which, in the US at least, is an absolute right. This shit is, this year certainly, reaching a frightening climax, with widespread witchhunts after people criticizing Israel's evidenced *behavior*, constantly conflating it with antisemitism, and resulting in extra-judicial material punishments. Naked power run amok.
I think it will get worse here, when we are forced out of Ukraine, China won’t fight us and the economy implodes from our having to carry Israhell due to its destroyed economy. We will see Vicky Nuland, backed by CIA and Mossad, in Portland and Minneapolis and Detroit and NYC and all the places that vote “uncommitted”, handing out cookies, stirring up a “color revolution.”
I think Vicky Nuland knows to head for her bunker in New Zealand.
Don’t believe it. These CIA spooks never die, they just join a think tank and create more trouble from there. She’s Keagan’s wife and he is a virulent neocon. Don’t worry, she’ll land on her feet. And on everyone else’s head! Like Killary, Nancy Baloney, Wasserman-Schultz. Powers will join that little cabal someday too and they’ll all find happiness in WEF.
Probably. I was thinking mainly of the fact that she is known by large numbers of knowledgeable people now, so if things get dicey...
I wrote a comment just the other day asking if she and Bob had been spotted scouting property for sale in that exact place.
She’s a hell hag, and will probably die in her bed.
Anywhere you would put a huge population like that, you would cause, displacement, anguish, and more innocent victims. Pre-67 borders is not without pain, I recognize that. And the deranged frenzy in the mental state of so much of the population cannot be maintained or contained within a reasonable solution. What would be an effective “de-zionification” like the de-nazification process of the end of the second World War™? I trust South Africa, haven’t gone through their truth and reconciliation process in ways that seemed unimaginable prior to the end of the apartheid regime.
Doesn’t let you correct a post, but South Africa, having gone through…
There is, or should be, an editing menu from the ellipses (...) to the lower right of your post.
The De-Nazification of Germany, et al., was a joke. We all know that. High level Nazis were simply confirmed in positions of power because none of the Allied Powers had the time, energy, or interest in ferreting out every Nazi cockroach and de-Nazifying them. What all the allied powers had was an infinite ability to ignore the rape of German women at the hands of our soldiers for years. You’re never going to de-Zionize the Israelis. It’s a waste of time to talk about it. The task of reclaiming their humanity is an individual one. Each Israeli citizen must make this decision. And a big part of that is making an admission that other human beings are their peers, and their equals, possessing human dignity and the right to live just like every Israeli. Until the Israelis drop their “chosen people” bullshit they are not going to respect anyone’s right to life. The sad fact is that Jews think they are better than everyone else. It’s how they’re raised; it’s what they’re taught; it’s what they believe.
While I would be delighted to see real justice in action, and the Israelis forced to leave Israel, we all know that is as unlikely to happen as the United States being forced back behind the Mississippi and made to cede all the lands to the Pacific Coast back to the Native Americans - a dream I confess I often indulge in. And please, before you raise your shrill objections I realize I am leaving out the tribes between the Atlantic and the Mississippi.
Anyhoo, it isn’t going to happen. Once again, no one wants them. Name me a country, with enough land to spare, that wants to take on the burden of a bunch of displaced Israelis? They would not be a welcome addition to any society. If you want to see Justice done then Israel and Palestine must become one nation, both people living together side by side, building their common future. Why a vicious ethno-state like Israel was ever allowed to come into being is a good question. No other nation on the planet claims such a right.
We could offer them some land in Texas, I suppose. Texas Evangelical Christians send the Israelis millions of dollars every year to build more illegal settlements, with the hope that in doing so, they will increase pressure in the area until it explodes in Armageddon - another stupid doctrine this one theological as opposed to political - that came out of the 19th century. Funny, isn’t it, how these toxic creeds never seem to die? The dead hand of the past weighs upon the present, and stretches into our future. As Faulkner once said: The past is never dead. It’s not even past.
Pretty fed up with the human race. Yes, wouldn't the land which is the USA be much better off if we let the Indians have it all back. I would gladly join their tribe...any trip............ Actually, I think most have been ruined by lousy white man diet, white man alcohol and white man drugs and then there's those casinos. .........So, forgetaboutit.
I don't think Israel ever had a right to exist. It's unjust to go into a place and set up a government without the consent of the people who are already there.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
At this point I have to agree with you, Mary.
To think that ISrael was (literally!) given to theJews so they wouldn't have to live as minorities in countries that rejected them!
Every country rejected them.
Mary Wildfire: who is really safe anywhere? I am not so sure that Israelis who decided they could not live beside Palestinians would be especially safe in the US or in many other places. They would have to give up their racist attitudes to be considered safe. They would have to be cleansed of their Zionist ideology to be safe wherever they go.
They aren't racist. They just want all of Palestine. Nothing to do with race or religion. In NYC, they cheat everybody, regardless of race. Even each other.
Wrong Judith; Israelis are racist. I worked with a Zionist/ American Jewish supporter of Israel. When the Israelis were shelling Beirut and dropping bombs on Lebanese Christian neighborhoods - this is when Lebanese Christian Militias supported Israel - he shrugged and said: They’re all Arabs. Only Jewish lives matter; everyone else is trafe.
Thanks for this. Trafe..or Treif..Alternate spelling.. means unkosher. Having lived in NYC for 50 years, I know that word. There are many yiddish words used in NYC...why not: they're cool. Someone asked me what was NYC like, and the first thing I thought of, "it's Jewish"...among many other things. and, it is..
I was brought up by people in the middle west, a suburb of Chicago where your word was your bond. No one in my family would cheat people. I was in a partnership with 4 others; we bought buildings in NYC..when they were seriously dirt cheap. One partner was a Jewish dentist, one was his former assistant who had become a Consultant to Dentists. She was either the first or one of the first to do this. Our Jewish partner screwed us twice! First on a building he was supposed to pay the mortgage on, as we had put up the downpayment. He didn't pay the mortgage or the bills and kept the rental income. We ended up getting him out of that building. THEN, he signed a contract to sell another one (probably got money under the table) and our Jewish lawyer, his friend, told us stupid trusting partners that we had to go through with the sale or we would be sued for "specific performance".
Now, I know we could have canceled that sale because the majority of the partners never signed it. One partner was his former employee/friend. Another was my friend, a Doctor from Australia. Another was a woman who had raised 3 kids on her own and wanted to put her savings into a solid investment. And, me. None of us were stupid, we were just not Jewish.
I think to them, EVERYONE else is treif. Dirty and not to be respected. That was just one money losing experience with Jews in NYC. I can count 13. In NYC, they are closer to Jewish. As they move through the country, and associate more with the general population; they don't identify as much with Jewish "values". Some marry out and are still "Jewish" but not conforming.
This site I found easily explains some of this: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3947400/jewish/What-Does-Treif-Mean.htm
See the last section: American Treif. Now when Israel is under scrutiny for this "war", I think even those who were non-conforming are being pulled in to support/save "the Jewish people always at risk of annihilation" .
See my reply to Little Nell on this site.
I don't know about that. In their own enclaves, as long as they didn't act out violently, they'd be safe, seems to me. I just would hope none settle near me, we have enough racists around here already.
Your attitude toward people from Israel sounds racist to me. You seem to be making assumptions that everyone from Israel will be a zionist. I guess you don't see it as important to give, even the most potentially difficult people, a chance to redeem themselves?
They had a chance. They got worse.
I figure some Israelis can live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors and should be allowed to do so--but I doubt it's more than 10%. I suspect one reason Israelis are so Zionist is self-selection; young Israelis who are uncomfortable with apartheid and discrimination get the hell out, leaving behind those who are fine with it, and newcomers who think it's great to live in a place where their identity group is acknowledged to be the Master Race. Polls have shown the vast majority in Israel are onboard with the genocide. This is not some genetic, hardwired thing--humans are herd animals and most are very influenced by those around them.
exactly. especially when those around them are indoctrinating them with a specific ideology. they are "so zionist" because the indoctrination starts as soon as they are born.
As long as they don't wear a red yarmulke, they'd be pretty safe in the US.
Potentiallhy 'difficult'?
I was thinking of all kinds of people who are not accepted. It came out sounding a little off. I guess, really, everyone is "potentially difficult"
I've lately noticed furious work on re-scoping the Nakba, back to identifying 1920s "unprovoked" Palestinian offenses. (Hmm... where have I heard that word "unprovoked" before?)
Looks like we're in for the long haul, of course, on history re-examination. Just hope all the relevant evidence hasn't been destroyed.
I have this recollection from long ago (circa 1970) that keeps popping up unbidden into my mind these days, of a friend looking over a newspaper, then laying it down and stating, "Every time you turn around, Israel is stealing land that doesn't belong to them."
There were no 'Palestinians' in the 1920s, only inhabitants of a British colony.
Israel has only fought wars when attacked. Who are the blood hungry?
This is simply false.
That is bullshit. 67 was a preemptive strike. The history is not what western Society has been taught to believe. Israel is extremely good at presenting a narrative that is,more often than not, a fair good distance from the truth. When necessary, they will torture individuals to back up that narrative.
Not true. In 1967, " early on the morning of June 5, Israel staged a sudden preemptive air assault that destroyed more than 90 percent Egypt’s air force on the tarmac. A similar air assault incapacitated the Syrian air force. Without cover from the air, the Egyptian army was left vulnerable to attack. Within three days the Israelis had achieved an overwhelming victory on the ground, capturing the Gaza Strip and all of the Sinai Peninsula up to the east bank of the Suez Canal."
Wow, that must be some good stuff you’re smoking. Please put the crack pipe down.🤣😂
The Hollywood Central Casting version of weak enfeebled righteous hard done by people with impossibly good looking teenaged children full of righteous vengeance DOESN’T WASH anymore
Duh...so Palestinians have 57 years worth of pay back to the Israeli...
BLOOD LUSTERS
A bit of history there...57 years worth...bye bye
Here is a thought…how about you leave them to live in piece. Just a thought.
How many pieces?
😂
Yes, indeed. I could see them living “in piece”. a small piece and consensus of governments around the world is that it should be in pre-67 borders. That is already a huge huge concession for Palestinians. But living in peace means not harming others. Means not controlling others. There must be a guarantor between Israel and Palestine who can keep the peace. Is there such an entity?